A Matter of Honor (Full Version)

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beargonewild -> A Matter of Honor (7/26/2009 3:51:34 PM)

Got to thinking lately in regards to how we kinksters are adamant about being in a relationship, whether it's with a dominant, submissive or a switch and we place a high priority on that person's character. What strikes me as strange is I've rarely read anyone place any emphasis on the other person's honor.

Going by the dictionary definition of honor which is: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. It seems to me that a person would want to examine the honor of a potential partner or in a partner if that person is in a relationship. What I'd like to ask is:
On a list of important characteristics of a person, where does that person's sense of honor sit?  If having a high personal sense of honor and integrity, how far are you willing to defend that?
We all are guided by own own sense of personal ethics, how much of your own self respect and the respect earned from your peers are you willing to risk for the sake of defending your own sense of honor, even if that sense of honor is over inflated?



Kalista07 -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/26/2009 4:19:14 PM)

Perhaps i'm just not getting what You are meaning here bear....Or perhaps i'm just stupid... Either way, i guess the sense i get from this is that regarding someone i care about, respect, love or value i will fight to the end to defend their honor or until they tell me to let it go. Regarding my own?  i don't feel the need...Why? As was pointed out to me recently, those who know me and love me already know me and love me or don't. Why would i need to defend myself to anyone else. Reminds me of one of my favorite sayings...Nice guys don't have to go around telling people they are nice guys....
Feel free to tell me if i've completely missed the boat here.
Kali



LillyoftheVally -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/26/2009 4:27:54 PM)




I respect a person with integrity, I also respect a person with honour. I believe that people should remain true to themselves as much as possible, with one proviso that this truth doesn't impact on another's right to remain true to themselves. This is the sticking point, the defending honour to the death and all that stuff to me can be going too far, that is why needless wars start. If we gave others the freedom to hold their own values, live and let live and all that. However honour for one is deemed often to be the right thing for all, that is where the problems start

I would never ask someone to forsake their honour or integrity for me, however theirs may be a brand that does not match my own.



NakedOnMyChain -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/26/2009 5:26:19 PM)

Honor and integrity are intrinsic values in the leather lifestyle, so I believe you will find stronger viewpoints on honor with those who identify as leather.  Of course, many outside of the leather community will also feel strongly about honor, but it tends to be a more structured viewpoint in the leather community as opposed to an individual ethic.  For more casual players, whether they are behaving with honor may be irrelevant entirely.  While I don't identify as leather, many of my friends do, and I certainly live my life by the same values, if not the same lifestyle dynamic. 

How far would I defend my "honor"?  (I almost giggled there.  That sounds like a bad romance novel.)  I would defend my honor or another's honor implicitly if I come across a situation I am uncomfortable with.  Keep in mind, though, that my idea of honor may not be the same as yours.  The more appropriate question would be, "How would you define your honor?"  Everyone has something they are implicitly honorable about, but morals and ethics shift from person to person, so it is natural that the definition shifts with them.  For example, I am married, polyamorous and pansexual.  I am sure my code of honor would be a bit different from someone who was monogamous and straight.  The things I do might go against their idea of integrity or vice versa.  The key to honor and integrity is to simply behave humanely to people to the best of your abilities while keeping intact your personal morals and speak up against injustice when you come across it.  Live the best you can, trying as hard as you can to follow your ethics, and don't get to hung up if things go awry on occasion.  If you lose the respect of your peers for behaving humanely, then they are hardly your peers.

As for those with an overblown sense of honor, let them deal with it themselves.



Malkinius -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/26/2009 5:30:30 PM)

Greetings bear....

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Got to thinking lately in regards to how we kinksters are adamant about being in a relationship, whether it's with a dominant, submissive or a switch and we place a high priority on that person's character. What strikes me as strange is I've rarely read anyone place any emphasis on the other person's honor.

Going by the dictionary definition of honor which is: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. It seems to me that a person would want to examine the honor of a potential partner or in a partner if that person is in a relationship. What I'd like to ask is:
On a list of important characteristics of a person, where does that person's sense of honor sit?  If having a high personal sense of honor and integrity, how far are you willing to defend that?
We all are guided by own own sense of personal ethics, how much of your own self respect and the respect earned from your peers are you willing to risk for the sake of defending your own sense of honor, even if that sense of honor is over inflated?



This is an interesting question to put in this forum. The subject is a common one in another forum here in CM.

The simple answer to your question is that there is about as much honor in BDSM as in the rest of society and by my observations...a bit less. To make a more concrete answer, little to none. This is why the few who do recognize it and the fewer still who exhibit it stand out among others.

Be well....

Malkinius



OrionTheWolf -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/26/2009 6:07:43 PM)

Hiya beargonewild,

One of the keys to your definition is to understand that definition first. People may have different beliefs and actions, but if they both show honesty, and integrity (I leave out fairness as it is too subjective) then they are both acting honorably. In answer to your question, yes we should look to the honor that anyone that is close to us, or has a potential to become close to us. I will defend my honor with my life if necessary, become to not defend your honor is to lose integrity. Integrity being consistant in the application and belief of your code. I have risked being ostercized by friends, family and peers before, to stand up for what I believe in. This is one of the reasons why I can count my friends on one hand. I am not sure how honor is over inflated, maybe you could explain a bit more.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Got to thinking lately in regards to how we kinksters are adamant about being in a relationship, whether it's with a dominant, submissive or a switch and we place a high priority on that person's character. What strikes me as strange is I've rarely read anyone place any emphasis on the other person's honor.

Going by the dictionary definition of honor which is: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. It seems to me that a person would want to examine the honor of a potential partner or in a partner if that person is in a relationship. What I'd like to ask is:
On a list of important characteristics of a person, where does that person's sense of honor sit?  If having a high personal sense of honor and integrity, how far are you willing to defend that?
We all are guided by own own sense of personal ethics, how much of your own self respect and the respect earned from your peers are you willing to risk for the sake of defending your own sense of honor, even if that sense of honor is over inflated?




Joseff -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/26/2009 7:38:11 PM)

You ask if one's partner should be honorable. You see people talking about how important their own honor is, but not about that of others. Well, you actually do hear about the importance of honor in others, you just don't recognise it. How often have you read on these forums about the importance of trust and honesty? What people are saying is that they are looking for someone who is honorable, they're just using different words.



Apocalypso -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/26/2009 8:45:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally
I respect a person with integrity, I also respect a person with honour. I believe that people should remain true to themselves as much as possible, with one proviso that this truth doesn't impact on another's right to remain true to themselves. This is the sticking point, the defending honour to the death and all that stuff to me can be going too far, that is why needless wars start. If we gave others the freedom to hold their own values, live and let live and all that. However honour for one is deemed often to be the right thing for all, that is where the problems start

I would never ask someone to forsake their honour or integrity for me, however theirs may be a brand that does not match my own.

In a shocking plot twist, I mostly agree with LillyoftheVally.  It's perfectly possible for two people to have honour, within the dictionary definition of the word, yet the specifics of that may be very different and possibly opposed.

My position here is something of a right angle to Malkinius' point.  To start overusing analogies, in my experience of BDSMers, most codes of honour (and definitely Gorean) seem basically feudal to me.   Kings and vassals.  Samurai and their Daimyo. They're structured, hierarchal, centre round duties and obligations and pledges.  All those kinds of things.

Whereas my code of honour is a bit more rough and ready.  It's the honour of the outlaws, the outcasts, the heretics.

So it has various components that come from that.   An unwillingness to discuss any issues in the gaze of outsiders.  A preference for resolving issues internally.  An attack on any being an attack on all.  An antagonistic relationship with the mainstream.  A core of autonomy for each, regardless of orientation.   Applause for eccentricity.

And some less positive traits.  Honourable with something of a weakness in the morals department.  The tendency to conflate means and ends.  Seeing the world in binary terms.   Seeing ourselves as "us" and everyone else as "them".  A problem with compromising. Forgetting that destruction needs to have a point. (All honour systems come with negative issues.  The more feudal model wlll always be hampered by stasis and the falliability of autocrats).

Now, neither of those are outside any reasonable definition of honour.  But they simply aren't compatible.  Not because one is more honourable then the other.  It's the age old, neverending struggle between chaos and order. (As, incidentally, is "New Leather versus Old Leather"). And it leads to different focuses within relationships.  For example, I not only accept, but require a submissive to refuse to do what they're told if they sincerely feel that it goes against their personal integrity or sense of self.  That would not be something that a Gorean  would expect from his slave.  (Hence I'm not a master and don't do TPE).  And, similiarly, our hypothetical Gorean would not be right for any submissive I would be good with or vice versa.

Defending integrity?  Yeah, when it's needed. Which isn't that often.   I am the cat who walks by himself and all places are alike to me.  Within the boundries of common sense.  I might not believe that the law has any moral right to affect my actions.  But I recognise that it has the right of force to do so and I'm not going to go out of my way to pick a fight when I'm outgunned and outnumbered so heavily.  (Now I wouldn't, anyway.  When I was 18, it happened frequently).  There's nothing dishonourable about picking your battles carefully, at least not for me.

The only thing I'd query is the Voltarian view we should always leave others to follow their own honour.  I'm only talking about the extremes here.  But say we have a neonazi.  Now, I can accept his views are genuinely held.  I can believe that he has honour of his own type.  I can even respect him, to an extent.  But it's still the case that not only are our beliefs compatible, so are our very realities.  And sooner or later that's going to mean something.  And I fully intend to be the one still standing when the dust settles.



catize -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/26/2009 9:32:36 PM)

Honor is just one principle that I look for in potential friends and partners.  Integrity, trustworthiness, and consistency are also important.  I would expect them to look for the same qualities in me.
Belonging to any one group does not imbue us with any of these qualities.  Individuals make their own choices regarding their own behaviors.   The word is only as meaningful as that persons’ actions. 



DavanKael -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/26/2009 10:00:48 PM)

On a list of important characteristics of a person, where does that person's sense of honor sit?
****Waaaaaaaaay up there on the list: extremely high. 

If having a high personal sense of honor and integrity, how far are you willing to defend that?
****I don't know that I'd go so far as to die for it but I certianly would take on great risk for it.  It is one of my core values. 

We all are guided by own own sense of personal ethics, how much of your own self respect and the respect earned from your peers are you willing to risk for the sake of defending your own sense of honor, even if that sense of honor is over inflated?
****Actually, people who most recept and understand me tend to hold those things about me in high regard, thus they wouldn't look on them as negatives.  More to this point, would be the rare instances in which I have sacrificed my honor (Only one true time and I will always carry that with me) and what that does to my self-perception and how others see me: and, from what I've gleaned, it makes me less potentially sanctimonious (Because I won't be a hypocrite) and I think others see it as humanizing. 
  Davan



Cuffkinks -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/26/2009 10:36:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Got to thinking lately in regards to how we kinksters are adamant about being in a relationship, whether it's with a dominant, submissive or a switch and we place a high priority on that person's character. What strikes me as strange is I've rarely read anyone place any emphasis on the other person's honor.

Going by the dictionary definition of honor which is: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. It seems to me that a person would want to examine the honor of a potential partner or in a partner if that person is in a relationship. What I'd like to ask is:
On a list of important characteristics of a person, where does that person's sense of honor sit?  If having a high personal sense of honor and integrity, how far are you willing to defend that?
We all are guided by own own sense of personal ethics, how much of your own self respect and the respect earned from your peers are you willing to risk for the sake of defending your own sense of honor, even if that sense of honor is over inflated?



I place a very high importance on honor. In myself, in those I hold dear to me, and in particular...a partner. I couldn't be with someone that wasn't honorable. I feel that in today's world, honor is something we're sadly lacking. I was raised to be honorable and respectful. Those are traits that I admire in other people when I see them.
To defend the honor of someone I care about?...I don't know about "to the death," but I certainly wouldn't just let someone I care about be dishonored. As for my honor? It doesn't have to be defended. Anyone who knows me and knows how I carry myself knows that I am a man of honor. That's in life...not just lifestyle.



lioncub -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/26/2009 11:48:02 PM)

Honor is at the very tippy top of importance for me. Whether or not someone is honorable can affect my safety. What appeals to me the most about BDSM or D/s relationships is the high amount of integrity and trust involved. Under such extreme circumstances, it is necessary.

If I knew my honor or integrity was not true, I would not even consider being in a relationship, or defending myself to anyone. I'll let my actions speak for themselves.



MissAnimus -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/27/2009 12:36:18 AM)

Here's to honor-

Get honor, keep honor
And if you can't come in her come on her.




...someday I'll grow up, but not today.



TurboJugend -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/27/2009 12:48:29 AM)

quote:

The simple answer to your question is that there is about as much honor in BDSM as in the rest of society and by my observations...


exactly. Somehow I have the feeling that we always try to make the bdsm lifestyle more special then other lifestyles.
We might be different..but not superior.



VanityFix -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/27/2009 12:51:09 AM)

my personal defination of honor has always been how i deal with confrontations, conflict and rivalries in life, on how i play polotics and gossip to what i will and wont do to win a game of fisticuffs and so on. i look at myself in the mirror every day i see honor/integrity as a major factor of how i can do that.
i beleive any stable person has some type of honor code of some sort, how well they stick to it is a big part of how much respect i have for that person, simularitys in our honor codes is a big part of liking someone



SimplyMichael -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/27/2009 5:49:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

On a list of important characteristics of a person, where does that person's sense of honor sit?
****Waaaaaaaaay up there on the list: extremely high. 

If having a high personal sense of honor and integrity, how far are you willing to defend that?
****I don't know that I'd go so far as to die for it but I certianly would take on great risk for it.  It is one of my core values. 

We all are guided by own own sense of personal ethics, how much of your own self respect and the respect earned from your peers are you willing to risk for the sake of defending your own sense of honor, even if that sense of honor is over inflated?
****Actually, people who most recept and understand me tend to hold those things about me in high regard, thus they wouldn't look on them as negatives.  More to this point, would be the rare instances in which I have sacrificed my honor (Only one true time and I will always carry that with me) and what that does to my self-perception and how others see me: and, from what I've gleaned, it makes me less potentially sanctimonious (Because I won't be a hypocrite) and I think others see it as humanizing. 
Davan



Shakes his head and laughs.



CatdeMedici -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/27/2009 5:57:42 AM)

I don't define or categorize how I behave or expect those in My circle to behave--I live by the two basic laws of man, I expect anyone in My circle or as a selected friend to behave the same--however I, as we all are, am at times frightfully human and that in itself is a failing.



slaveluci -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/27/2009 6:15:21 AM)

~FR~
Whenever I hear the word "honor," I kind of cringe. Usually, when someone begins a narrative about how honorable and full of integrity they are, it usually doesn't take long to detect they are quite full of something but maybe not those qualities.

The bottom line for me is this: Master is a good man. He is an honest man who does what He says He will and finds no need to lie to anyone. I can depend on Him, trust in Him and believe Him. I believe Him to have "good" values/morals/ethics (whatever term you wish to insert) and I know that He does what is necessary to stand by them. He is kind and generous but one needn't mistake His kindness for weakness.

All these things coupled with many other qualities is what makes me know that He is an "honorable" man with lots of "integrity" (by my own definitiion). They are rather nebulous concepts but He embodies what I consider to be honor and integrity. However others define it for themselves is great too...............luci




Missokyst -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/27/2009 6:26:36 AM)

Bless you.  I completely agree.  I would add one thing though.
I am slightly confused by the idea that someone would deliberately choose someone they believed to be dishonest, bad, unkind, ect.  I mean.. do people seek that out?  I know they often find themselves with someone like that, but I have to think it was not a deliberate choice.  The most irritating examples of hurt, pain, and betrayal I have seen came from people who stressed honor and integrity as part of their lifestyle
In my observation there are people who talk "honor"  and people who are just decent kind people who have no need to promote one aspect of themselves over another.   Give me a decent man I can relate to.  One who is much like myself. 
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

~FR~
Whenever I hear the word "honor," I kind of cringe. Usually, when someone begins a narrative about how honorable and full of integrity they are, it usually doesn't take long to detect they are quite full of something but maybe not those qualities.

The bottom line for me is this: Master is a good man. He is an honest man who does what He says He will and finds no need to lie to anyone. I can depend on Him, trust in Him and believe Him. I believe Him to have "good" values/morals/ethics (whatever term you wish to insert) and I know that He does what is necessary to stand by them. He is kind and generous but one needn't mistake His kindness for weakness.

All these things coupled with many other qualities is what makes me know that He is an "honorable" man with lots of "integrity" (by my own definitiion). They are rather nebulous concepts but He embodies what I consider to be honor and integrity. However others define it for themselves is great too...............luci





olena -> RE: A Matter of Honor (7/27/2009 8:53:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TurboJugend

quote:

The simple answer to your question is that there is about as much honor in BDSM as in the rest of society and by my observations...


exactly. Somehow I have the feeling that we always try to make the bdsm lifestyle more special then other lifestyles.
We might be different..but not superior.


I agree with this line of thought. I have yet to meet a person in life that did not think of themselves of having good character and of high honor. Every human being looking for their other or just friends, bosses and co-workers desire being around people they view of having high character and honor.

But it is also human fallacy to think one is superior in this compared to many around them. We all at times or often play the game of our failings in this area were one time screw ups or have noble justifications for our actions and they are the exception to the rule. But we can judge others as having low character or having no honor if we see just one example. To think one is superior in these traits then most is a sign that these things that they hold deep thoughts to has already been dented.

I knew a man that these things were constantly openly communicated with him and by all observation seemed to walk the walk. Married for thirty years and refused his wife to work even during tough financial times because of his honor code. Taught Sunday school in church and many volunteer activities all using them as a pedestal to promote honor. He then gets divorced and claims his wife was a lazy ass for never working and should not get a dime of his. He would circle want ads and send them to her for jobs she was incredibly unqualified for and he tried to hide his money and lied in court proceedings.

My point to my story is honor and good character are something all human beings can and should strive for in their lives by living it but we will sometimes come up short now and then because we are not perfect. Those who judge others and forget their own stumbles do to selective memory are more prone then anyone to divert from the good path as anyone.



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