RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors

RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/29/2009 6:53:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Is our current tension due to the fact that you believe that I'm not addressing you when I give my analysis of the news stories that you post? If so, then it is not my intent to appear to be "talking behind your back", but rather, not to attack you personally, because on most of the stories you have posted lately, you don't initially make any commentary when you post them. What, then, is it that I should respond to? I respond to the actual article, and what I (rightly or wrongly) perceive as your reason for posting it. Not attempting to be a weasel - simply addressing the issue(s) you raise. Firm I don't make comments normally in the initial post because I want to hear other opinions not influenced by my own. You have taken it on yourself in several of my threads to decide what my opinion is and attack me on it before I ever gave it.

TreasureKY -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/29/2009 7:08:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Well, sorry, but we both know the reason you don't personally appreciate it and it has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Are you not capable of addressing the points or answering the questions in my comment? It's the only reason I can see for your attacking why I posted instead.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/29/2009 7:44:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Is our current tension due to the fact that you believe that I'm not addressing you when I give my analysis of the news stories that you post? If so, then it is not my intent to appear to be "talking behind your back", but rather, not to attack you personally, because on most of the stories you have posted lately, you don't initially make any commentary when you post them. What, then, is it that I should respond to? I respond to the actual article, and what I (rightly or wrongly) perceive as your reason for posting it. Not attempting to be a weasel - simply addressing the issue(s) you raise. Firm I don't make comments normally in the initial post because I want to hear other opinions not influenced by my own. You have taken it on yourself in several of my threads to decide what my opinion is and attack me on it before I ever gave it. Have I been wrong yet? [:D] And that is what really pisses you off, isn't it, rule? Firm

spokanesub85 -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/30/2009 5:13:51 PM)
I was active Army for five years deployed to Iraq with an infantry unit and have to say these guy's excuses are mostly bullshit, and this unit does not reflect the U.S. Army as whole. The leadership in 4th ID is apparently fucked up. I hate stories like this because they tend to make people who don't have any knowledge of the military (the vast majority of the population) think all us vets are crazy.

spokanesub85 -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/30/2009 5:17:29 PM)
One poster said something along the lines of "Soldiers are no more likely or less likely to break the law than anybody else." In fact, check the statistics, we are LESS likely to commit crime than the population as a whole.

rulemylife -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 11:47:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife I don't make comments normally in the initial post because I want to hear other opinions not influenced by my own. You have taken it on yourself in several of my threads to decide what my opinion is and attack me on it before I ever gave it. Have I been wrong yet? [:D] And that is what really pisses you off, isn't it, rule? Firm I don't know pisses me off is the right term. I think I would favor makes me laugh hysterically instead. Because everyone is well aware that for you to be wrong is completely out of the question.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 11:49:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife I don't make comments normally in the initial post because I want to hear other opinions not influenced by my own. You have taken it on yourself in several of my threads to decide what my opinion is and attack me on it before I ever gave it. Have I been wrong yet? [:D] And that is what really pisses you off, isn't it, rule? Firm I don't know pisses me off is the right term. I think I would favor makes me laugh hysterically instead. Because everyone is well aware that for you to be wrong is completely out of the question. Yanno .... if you compare me to you and the rest of your "posse", I'm the only one out of the bunch that has ever admitted error, or of learning something in our little conversations. The fact that you don't see that, and even make such claims says much more about you, than anything you claim. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:01:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife I don't make comments normally in the initial post because I want to hear other opinions not influenced by my own. And that is exactly what you hear ... and then complain about. Why is that? You only want to hear opinions that agree with yours? An echo chamber is what you really want, isn't it? You need to go to some far left websites. Hell, you might even be considered a moderate on some of them! [:D] Firm

rulemylife -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:02:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Are you not capable of addressing the points or answering the questions in my comment? It's the only reason I can see for your attacking why I posted instead. More than happy to. You seem so enamored of Bush that any criticism resorts to the tired Fox News claim of "Bush bashing". Considering the decisions he made and the fallout from those decisions that will affect us for years to come I'm getting really tired of the idea that Bush is "old news" and we should "just move on". But, more directly to the point, I posted this because I am tired of listening to flag-waving bullshit saying that we heroically liberated Iraq while not taking into account the Iraqis never asked us to liberate them and are generally opposed to our occupation. More importantly though, is the general ignorance to the toll of war, both on the Iraqi citizens and our own troops, while those that made the decisions for war chose to abstain from participation in the their own generation's conflict.

rulemylife -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:08:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Yanno .... if you compare me to you and the rest of your "posse", I'm the only one out of the bunch that has ever admitted error, or of learning something in our little conversations. The fact that you don't see that, and even make such claims says much more about you, than anything you claim. Firm My posse? Too much MTV? Sorry, I'm not the one constantly reaching out to others on here for support. And then when that's unavailable guess who miraculously shows up?

rulemylife -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:12:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife I don't make comments normally in the initial post because I want to hear other opinions not influenced by my own. And that is exactly what you hear ... and then complain about. Why is that? You only want to hear opinions that agree with yours? An echo chamber is what you really want, isn't it? You need to go to some far left websites. Hell, you might even be considered a moderate on some of them! [:D] Firm No, I want to hear opinions on the topic. Which most people offer. You offered only opinions on why you think I am biased and why the source was not credible.

Starbuck09 -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:19:01 PM)
That war is deeply unpleasant for soldiers and civilians alike is not in doubt by you, myself or anyone else rule. However these testimonies [if they are true the witnesses are scarcely creditable] should not impinge on the whether the decision to invade Iraq was the correct one. Their behaviour was disgusting and deserves to be punished, but it was the illegal action of a tiny minority and is ubiquitous tio all conflict. Would you cite allied war crimes as a reason that the fight against the axis powers was a poor choice?

TreasureKY -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:19:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Are you not capable of addressing the points or answering the questions in my comment? It's the only reason I can see for your attacking why I posted instead. More than happy to. Are you really? Because it seems to me that you've still not addressed the points in my post nor answered the questions I posed. quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife You seem so enamored of Bush that any criticism resorts to the tired Fox News claim of "Bush bashing". Considering the decisions he made and the fallout from those decisions that will affect us for years to come I'm getting really tired of the idea that Bush is "old news" and we should "just move on". But, more directly to the point, I posted this because I am tired of listening to flag-waving bullshit saying that we heroically liberated Iraq while not taking into account the Iraqis never asked us to liberate them and are generally opposed to our occupation. More importantly though, is the general ignorance to the toll of war, both on the Iraqi citizens and our own troops, while those that made the decisions for war chose to abstain from participation in the their own generation's conflict. Instead, you've resorted to making this about what you think I believe, then whined about you being tired of what other people say and know. Again... are you capable of addressing the points or answering the questions in my comment? In case you've lost track, it's post #39.

rulemylife -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:22:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Yeah, it's a shame we didn't elect a President who would "CHANGE!" that and get us out of Iraq. Instead we have one who continued with a third Bush term of military occupation, additional troop deployment and escalation in Afghanistan, and economic stimulus. But hey - the job market is much better - at least for public employee unions and bureaucrats. We've had this discussion many times Merc and you know my views. We are getting out of Iraq and concentrating our efforts where they should have been all along. And this isn't a surprise, it is exactly what he campaigned on. quote: I apprereicate the REAL reason you must be posting this - Transparency and the lack of accountability. Why is this Administration ignoring this situation? All the commanders and officers retired and moved out of the country? All these soldiers involved and no 'Abu Ghraib' style photo ops? Why is this being swept under the carpet? There should be a Congressional investigation! Lets get to the bottom of this obvious lack of leadership and integrity with the commanders involved, right up to the commander in chief. Swept under the carpet? Is that why we are reading about it?

Starbuck09 -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:25:11 PM)
I would also point out rule that getting out of Iraq is not the same as scaling down military activity as the situation stabilises.

rulemylife -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:29:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 That war is deeply unpleasant for soldiers and civilians alike is not in doubt by you, myself or anyone else rule. However these testimonies [if they are true the witnesses are scarcely creditable] should not impinge on the whether the decision to invade Iraq was the correct one. Their behaviour was disgusting and deserves to be punished, but it was the illegal action of a tiny minority and is ubiquitous tio all conflict. Would you cite allied war crimes as a reason that the fight against the axis powers was a poor choice? I'm not citing it for that reason. I am citing it for the direct opposite. There are time wars must be fought and times when they are fought for poor reasons. And in either case the human toll is the same. That human toll cannot be justified when the reasons for the conflict are lacking.

rulemylife -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:33:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 I would also point out rule that getting out of Iraq is not the same as scaling down military activity as the situation stabilises. So you would offer what as the alternative? A direct 100% pullout of all foreign troops in a destabilized situation that we created? You know, the whole "you broke it you bought it" thing?

TreasureKY -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:33:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Sorry, I'm not the one constantly reaching out to others on here for support. And then when that's unavailable guess who miraculously shows up? Oh... and since you may have missed it in the Buffalo thread, I'll repeat myself here... While I can understand your desire to marginalize my comments by attributing them as merely support for Firm due to our relationship, I assure you that my opinions would stand exactly as they are, regardless. I doubt you would show any more sense if Firm and I had never met.

Starbuck09 -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:34:59 PM)
But you said that you cited this report to ''remind'' people who agreed with the war about the human cost. The human cost though is not in doubt nor is the fact that occasionally soldiers will commit atrocities. In the armies of Britain and America remarkably infrequently. The fact that you disagree with the war is fine however this does not strengthen your position. The fact that you believe the human cost is not worthg this particualr war does not mean that others may find it acceptable. If you believe some wars to be worth the human cost then you must also accept the fact that others can quite rightly disagree with you over which conflicts are ''worthy'' of the price.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Soldiers in Colorado slayings tell of Iraq horrors (7/31/2009 12:35:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife But, more directly to the point, I posted this because I am tired of listening to flag-waving bullshit saying that we heroically liberated Iraq while not taking into account the Iraqis never asked us to liberate them and are generally opposed to our occupation. More importantly though, is the general ignorance to the toll of war, both on the Iraqi citizens and our own troops, while those that made the decisions for war chose to abstain from participation in the their own generation's conflict. How many times have you been in combat, rule? How many times have you seen the suffering of Saddam's people? How many times have you had to turn away Iraqi's fleeing his terror and tyranny, and know that you were sending them back to their deaths? And have them beg you for the lives of their children ... let just the children across the checkpoint? And have to refuse them, and turn away? How many Kurds have you seen lying in mass graves? Fathers, wives, son, young daughters ... some of the bullet holes were almost artistic, with white dresses, and the red patterns ... How many of Saddam's Iraqi people have you seen dying of starvation and exposure out of sheer terror and fear of returning to their homes, and lands under his control? How many 1 year olds have you seen dying of dysentery, because their families were forced to flee to areas with no clean water, and no sanitation - just to escape his "justice"? How many Iraqi's do you know, and have broken bread with in the US who have escaped their country when he was in charge, and can tell you story after story of fear, murder, torture, disappearances, and death? How many of your sons or close family members have served in this conflict? How many of your son's or close family members have been injured by IED's and barely survive and win a Purple Heart for injuries sustained in this conflict? And face a lifetime of pain and disorientation because of it ... and still be proud, and willing to go back and face it again? How many times have you struggled with the military medical bureaucracy because of those injuries? How many of your son's or close family members have returned without apparent injury, yet are suffering from anxiety and perhaps PTSD, and working through it themselves, without medical help? Treasure and I have experienced and/or are experiencing these things. What have you experienced? You read the NYT? The DailyKos? DomKen's threads? Some people have experience of what they speak. Others are sanctimonious blow hards. Let me know when you figure out which category you fit. I'm pretty confident in knowing where Treasure and I fit. Firm

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