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RE: Breath Play - 2/20/2006 2:55:41 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

Really now. Let's all try to scare the living crap out of anyone who wants to do any sort of edge play, shall we?


Trying to 'warn' someone who's never engaged in breath play before is hardly the same thing as scaring the living crap out of anyone who wants to do 'any sort of edge play.' Really now, that's a bit of an overstatement, isn't it?

quote:

YES, breath control is dangerous -- lots of activities people engage in in the lifestyle are dangerous!


And breath play is right up there at the top. There are different levels of danger and people take calculated risks all the time. With breath play, you, quite simply, are dealing with an unknown so your risk is not calculated or consented to with knowledge. It's a void and anyone who is brand new and doesn't know that may be taking a much greater risk than he would be prepared to take under other circumstances.

quote:

A Top could accidentally kill a sub by putting them in bondage -- not improper bondage mind you, but still the chance of a blood clot forming and travelling to a lung or the heart is still a possibility.
The sub could have a car accident on the way to the Dom's house and die -- do you really want to take that risk??


A specious argument having nothing to do with breath play.


quote:

Calculated risks are a part of everyday life, lovely people. Breath play is very enjoyable, and as long as the Top is responsible, I really don't see what the huge deal is.


Obviously, because you think the Top has a control which they are not capable of having.

quote:

My Master has two methods which he uses when we have this sort of play: 1) He will choke me, not by cutting off my airway, but by pressing on the arteries in my neck and cutting off the blood flow to the brain. The result is a pleasant lightheadedness, though a sub could easily black out if the Dom isn't paying attention to him/her. About 30 seconds of pressure is more than enough to get giddy.


Strange you don't add that 30 seconds is also more than enough to kill you or did you not know that?

quote:

2) He will place his hand over my nose and mouth, which prevents me from breathing. This is normally safe for a bit longer (a couple of minutes), since it takes a while to run out of air and then start panicking.


It's not safe and to tout something as 'normally' safe when it involves cutting off the air supply for a 'couple of minutes' is down right irresponsible. You make vast assumptions, the most obvious is that someone is starting with fully inhaled lungs. How long is it 'normally' safe if someone is at full exhale or their lungs are only partial filled? Makes a bit of a difference don't you think? I err on the side of caution while you protest on the side of reckless. To each their own as it's up to reasoning adults to come to their own conclusions.


quote:

All in all, this is just another form of control that yes, could get ugly if someone gets sloppy. So just USE YOUR HEAD, and all will be well!


Using your head is no guarentee that all will be well. Never was, never will be.

Good luck to you, and I mean that sincerely because I think you'll need it.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to darkersolace)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Breath Play - 2/20/2006 3:14:22 PM   
fastlane


Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline 		I hold my breath everytime I here someone wants to try it, without really knowing the dangers, or has any "first responder" training.
Fastlane falls to the floor in a black out!

_____________________________

Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Breath Play - 2/20/2006 4:21:52 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		The only technique I am sufficiently experienced in to be able to teach, I have never used it in BDSM, but it is a technique which will bring uncinsciousness for a small time and can be done safely (assuming there are no medican problems). It is the "Sleeper Hold" used in security opperations. It is the only technique i would use and even then Breath play holds no appeal to me what so ever.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to fastlane)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Breath Play - 2/20/2006 5:05:12 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Damn, Celeste, your first post made me hot (lol), and your second made me applaud. There are SO many who venture into D/s, BDSM, Kink, play, whatever - - who do not understand the risks. i never understood what the big deal was with breath play until Master said he won't do it, and i asked him about it. Well, he smothers me a bit, but never for any length of time longer than it would take me to swim the length of a pool underwater, if you get the idea. Just enough to make a point.

There is nothing wrong with urging caution and explaining risks. Wasn't there just a recent thread going on about bodily fluids and using protection after all? Education - it's a good thing.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Breath Play - 2/20/2006 5:51:12 PM   
tendergirl


Posts: 103
Joined: 11/25/2005
Status: offline 		I defended because I receive alot of critisism (sp) for my edge play in regards to breath control. Forgive me if I came across as defensive, I apologise. It is what i specialise in, what i like best other than tightly controlled rope bondage.

I like it so I do it, end of. If there is anyone out there who wants to know what has worked or not worked for us, email me and I will speak with you directly.

love from tendergirl

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Breath Play - 2/20/2006 5:56:48 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		My only concern is that the OP sounds as if he has never had experience with this before. In those circumstances, it is highly dangerous and irresponsible to attempt.

On a personal note, I love breath play, but I have only done it with one person. And to be totally honest, I don't know if I could ever be that trusting of someone else.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to MineToControl)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Breath Play - 2/20/2006 6:04:53 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

I am adult enough to know that what I do is dangerous. I am also adult enough to know that what I do could jeopardise my Dom's life if it ever went wrong.


You like it so you do it.. but, you are also aware of the consequences. The above two sentences are the most important thing on this thread as far as I'm concerned and I hope that for those who are thinking of engaging in breath play for the first time, they read them and heed them.

That's not knocking what you do, Tendergirl, it's a compliment.

Celeste



_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to tendergirl)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Breath Play - 2/20/2006 7:57:18 PM   
darkersolace


Posts: 2
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Nashville
Status: offline 		I'd like to apologize if I've ruffled any feathers, since apparently my dislike of scare tactics was taken as a personal attack and an offer to rip apart my previous post. I do so love playing Devil's advocate, though. I completely agree that if there's some form of edge play that's just something you aren't comfortable with then don't do it, everyone has that right. But when giving out advice, please try to be accurate and objective. I've been doing a little research myself. For instance, I found that the nervous cells in the brain will start to die within 3-7 minutes after complete oxygen deprivation. The average human can hold his or her breath for 1 minute. So... I think it's pretty safe to say that a person isn't going to die from holding their breath until they can't take it anymore. Your body will tell you when you have to have air -- you start to panic, and you'll struggle. When that happens, it's time for the Top to LET GO. That's using your head, and it's totally controllable.

It is a calculated risk. For me, it's a highly enjoyable one. Do learn all that you can about it, and ask questions know all the angles. Listen to me, or don't -- Just find the facts for yourself.

Thank you!

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Breath Play - 2/20/2006 8:40:08 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkersolace

I'd like to apologize if I've ruffled any feathers, since apparently my dislike of scare tactics was taken as a personal attack and an offer to rip apart my previous post. I do so love playing Devil's advocate, though. I completely agree that if there's some form of edge play that's just something you aren't comfortable with then don't do it, everyone has that right. But when giving out advice, please try to be accurate and objective. I've been doing a little research myself. For instance, I found that the nervous cells in the brain will start to die within 3-7 minutes after complete oxygen deprivation. The average human can hold his or her breath for 1 minute. So... I think it's pretty safe to say that a person isn't going to die from holding their breath until they can't take it anymore. Your body will tell you when you have to have air -- you start to panic, and you'll struggle. When that happens, it's time for the Top to LET GO. That's using your head, and it's totally controllable.

It is a calculated risk. For me, it's a highly enjoyable one. Do learn all that you can about it, and ask questions know all the angles. Listen to me, or don't -- Just find the facts for yourself.

Thank you!


my feathers rarely get ruffled, and i'm all for devil's advocates if done kindly. Also, i think it has been mentioned that the "scare tactics" were a means to educate those who know very little about breath play but were thinking of diving into it.

So let's say, you enjoy your breath play, and others will continue to share education on a potentially risky scenario.

(in reply to darkersolace)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Breath Play - 2/20/2006 9:23:21 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkersolace
. I've been doing a little research myself. For instance, I found that the nervous cells in the brain will start to die within 3-7 minutes after complete oxygen deprivation. The average human can hold his or her breath for 1 minute.


Actually, I believe the majority of the concern about breath control isn't from brain damage but because of the involvement of the vagus nerve in premature ventricular contraction leading to heart attack.

At least that's the major criticism I've seen


_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to darkersolace)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Breath Play - 2/20/2006 9:31:44 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

I'd like to apologize if I've ruffled any feathers, since apparently my dislike of scare tactics was taken as a personal attack and an offer to rip apart my previous post.


You see scare tactics, I see clear warning. I ripped apart your post because it needed to be done. A newbie reading your post could have inferred there were little or no dangers to breath play because of your choice of words and phrases. Using things like 'normal' and 'safe', and 'use your head, all will be well' don't hold hands very well with cutting off one's air supply.

quote:

I do so love playing Devil's advocate, though.


Given the context of your post, I believe you're misinformed on what it means to be a devil's advocate.

devil's advocate (n.) One who argues against a cause or position, not as a committed opponent but simply for the sake of argument or to determine the validity of the cause or position.

quote:

I completely agree that if there's some form of edge play that's just something you aren't comfortable with then don't do it, everyone has that right.


I agree.

quote:

But when giving out advice, please try to be accurate and objective.


Yes, please do.

quote:

I've been doing a little research myself. For instance, I found that the nervous cells in the brain will start to die within 3-7 minutes after complete oxygen deprivation. The average human can hold his or her breath for 1 minute. So... I think it's pretty safe to say that a person isn't going to die from holding their breath until they can't take it anymore.


And you would be wrong to say that ... that's my point. You make statements which you are ill prepared to make or defend with scientific facts and while they 'seem' logical, there is no veracity to them at all. You think it 'sounds good' and that you are speaking from a place of expertise when you most certainly are not.

'It's the oxygen in your blood stream not your lungs which matters. Once you have breathed in and held your breath for about ten to fifteen seconds there will be little further gaseous exchange of oxygen into your blood, so it is irrelevant whether you keep holding your breath or not. The feeling of having to
breathe in is caused by the build up of CO2 in your blood (& lungs to some extent), so it may help relieve the feeling a bit if you trickle your breath out slowly, but it won't actually affect your survivability other than making you a bit more comfortable. Carbon monoxide (CO) is not produced by the body, but is, rather, a by-product of the combustion of hydrocarbons, so is found in car exhaust fumes and gas boiler outlets etc. It islethal and once in to your bloodstream is stable and very hard to remove. So unless you want to die a nasty death, or get brain damage, don't mess around with carbon monoxide. For that matter Carbon dioxide (CO2) will also kill you if you get enough of it.'

Perhaps you missed that information in your research. I would suggest you do more research if you think that the only danger in breath play is when you get to the point where you are struggling to breath. Damage and death can happen WELL BEFORE you get to that point.

quote:

When that happens, it's time for the Top to LET GO. That's using your head, and it's totally controllable.


There is not a Top in the world that can gauge how much CO2 has gone into your blood stream. It's totally uncontrollable.


quote:

It is a calculated risk.


A calculated risk has variables which are known and considered whereas breath play has variables which are unknown and cannot be considered. It's not a calculated risk, it's just a risk and a deadly risk at that.

quote:

For me, it's a highly enjoyable one.


As it is for many people and most are clueless as to the risk they take in engaging in such play.

quote:

Do learn all that you can about it, and ask questions know all the angles. Listen to me, or don't --


I would suggest, emphatically, that no one do listen to you because, frankly, you don't know what you're talking about.

quote:

Just find the facts for yourself.


That's one of the few pieces of advice which you give that I can agree with and it's a piece of advice I think you should consider following yourself.

For the record, yes, my feathers get VERY ruffled when the clueless try to speak from positions of authority and give out information which can KILL people.

Celeste

sources:

http://breathing.com
http://www.chestjournal.org
http://www.emedicinehealth.com
http://health.yahoo.com
http://drgreen.com
http://delsea.k12.nj.us
http://factmonster.com
Websters Universal Encyclopedic Dictionary







< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 2/20/2006 9:36:22 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to darkersolace)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Breath Play - 2/20/2006 9:37:52 PM   
DragonNphoenix


Posts: 617
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MineToControl

I have a sub that wants to explore Breath Play. I would be most interested in learning different methods that others have enjoyed as well as things to avoid and why.

Thanks, Master Paul



I personally love breath play. My Dragon and I do do this. He had done this type of play with a former slave that he had and did a lot of research at the time. But it still took almost a year of us being together before he would take this step with me. He flat out refuses to 'choke me out'. He will restrain my breath.. but not totally cut it off... I have asked to go further... to the point that I pass out... but he will only say NO.

I hope that you take as much time and energy in your exploration of this as my Master and I did.

1st Girl Phoenix



_____________________________

**Pain is just pleasure with a twist**

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Breath Play - 2/21/2006 3:17:06 AM   
swtnsparkling


Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

On a personal note, I love breath play, but I have only done it with one person. And to be totally honest, I don't know if I could ever be that trusting of someone else.


Irish, this is exacltey the same for me

_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please



(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Breath Play - 2/21/2006 7:22:35 AM   
MineToControl


Posts: 12
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline 		All I can Say is WOW....!

Thank you all for the great insight, articles, personal experiences and opinions.

The one thing I've learned it's nice to know we can lean on one another's experience and knowledge when we need to.

Thank YOU!

Paul

(in reply to swtnsparkling)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Breath Play - 2/21/2006 9:21:49 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MineToControl

All I can Say is WOW....!

Thank you all for the great insight, articles, personal experiences and opinions.

The one thing I've learned it's nice to know we can lean on one another's experience and knowledge when we need to.

Thank YOU!

Paul


[grin] There is an old saying: A fool does not learn from his mistakes; a smart person learns from his mistakes; a wise person learns from other's mistakes.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to MineToControl)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Breath Play - 2/21/2006 9:45:53 AM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		i have had a small bit of experience with breath play, mine is being choked out. Two types... the kind where my neck was constricted enough where i felt light headed and THEN panic... that is the point where my heart starts racing... and only the desire to be set free is utmost in my mind... then there is there other... where if done properly... DONE PROPERLY... he walked up behind me put his arm around my neck and 'boom' i was out... no time for panic.. no time for my heart to react... out... the very instant i went limp he released... i mean the very nanosecond..

This is NEVER to be done lightly or without knowing what one is doing...

i am merely speaking from my own personal experiences with it.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Breath Play - 2/21/2006 10:26:46 AM   
novacaine


Posts: 19
Joined: 10/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkersolace

I've been doing a little research myself. For instance, I found that the nervous cells in the brain will start to die within 3-7 minutes after complete oxygen deprivation. The average human can hold his or her breath for 1 minute.


You should also know that before "biological death" starts (your brain cells breaking down) you are still CLINICALLY DEAD.

That said, I do engage in a little bit of breath play from time to time, but nothing more intense than my hand covering his mouth and nose, never for a long period of time.

One of his fantasies is for me to do it until he passes out, which I have never done of course. But I have "revived" him with mouth to mouth or using my breathing mask (I'm trained as an EMT), its silly, but he seems to enjoy it.

(in reply to darkersolace)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Breath Play - 2/21/2006 10:11:04 PM   
omahadom68


Posts: 11
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		as you an see from the one,s here DONT DO breath play the end may be something you may not like i would just not do it and move on to something more fun

(in reply to MineToControl)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Breath Play - 2/21/2006 11:45:20 PM   
Jnj


Posts: 72
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
Actually, I believe the majority of the concern about breath control isn't from brain damage but because of the involvement of the vagus nerve in premature ventricular contraction leading to heart attack.

At least that's the major criticism I've seen



You are correct in that, John. Jim and I open our breath play classes by saying "There is no safe way to do breathplay" and one of the things we base that statement one is the role of the vagus nerve. Since it is not something a part of the anatomy that the top can see and feel, it is very possible to impact it without being aware. However, with that being said, the literature and research on vagus-nerve related deaths during asphyxiation and constriction of blood flow to the brain is extremely vague and tends to point towards rarity, but that is no reason to discount the possibility of occurance.

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Breath Play - 2/22/2006 8:09:03 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Smothering seems to be a less risky alternative, no?


Actually with smothering you can't see the persons face or whats going on. We do choking (hands, belt, rope) and have played around with plastic bags, but I would consider smothering more dangerous than those because you just don't have the same kind of feedback and its hard to tell with say a pillow exactly how much air you are cutting off.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 40
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