RE: Limits

RE: Limits (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 1:57:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: The definition given by tazzygirl, Racquelle, leadership, and pretty much everyone else is much closer to the definition in the article. Hey hey hey.... don't include me in that list laughs. I personally believe hard limits are nothing more than a codified step in the D/s dance with no more substance or purpose to them than the contracts they exist in. Surely that cannot be well aligned with any traditional leather (or bdsm) view. Step A: Write contract Step B: Note limits Step C: Get snazzy mastercard with 14k gold secret decoder ring All of which means, of course, that I even more violently disagree with the OP than the general BDSM community does. I'm somewhat concerned by that though given his excellent credentials and obvious experience in the field. heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!! i didnt get my decoder ring!!! btw, whats a contract? gesh leadership... sorry you were so disrespected as to be added to a group i am in,... lol

fadedshadow -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 2:52:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GaPhoto How many people actually know what the definiton of a hard limit is? I see so many people posting simple things like knife play as hard limits. By definition a hard limit is something that will mentally, emotionally, or physically damage the person beyond my ability to heal. Running a knife along the skin is not going to do that for the majority of the population. Collarme should define the definiton of limits on top of other things. Zack when i signed up, it went from stuff you live for and love to stuff you dislike and hate. and hard limit was at the bottom. so i figured out that hard limit meant you truly despise it more than anything else

IrishMist -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 5:27:23 AM)
quote: By definition a hard limit is something that will mentally, emotionally, or physically damage the person beyond my ability to heal. That's YOUR definition. It's not everyone elses definition.

LillyoftheVally -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 5:41:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist quote: By definition a hard limit is something that will mentally, emotionally, or physically damage the person beyond my ability to heal. That's YOUR definition. It's not everyone elses definition. nods

thishereboi -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 5:46:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GaPhoto Limits are fluid yes, and I do fully realize that. However this is the definition that I was taught, by someone who has verifiably been involved with the leather (and yes I mean actual leather) community for a significant portion of her life, and it is shared by many whom I have spoke with. Everything else is soft. Should soft limits be respected with absolute lines? Yes. Should they be listed as hard limits? No, I agree that hard limits are things that you will never do, however it is because they do not fall within the bounds of honor, or R.A.C.K. I also realize that I tend to have more absolute views on things due to my teaching, and that online many people only have anecdotal, 'Story of 'O' knowledge and view points. Zack Well if your friend told you that and others agreed, then that must be a fact. So why come here and question us?

DomImus -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 6:02:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GaPhoto By definition a hard limit is something that will mentally, emotionally, or physically damage the person beyond their ability to heal. I'm not sure where you got that definition but it's inaccurate. A limit within the context with which you speak is a boundary beyond which a person will not cross or that those they are involved will not cross. This is the generally agreed upon definition. Now... if you want to split hairs you can do the hard limit/soft limit dance. You either have a limit or you do not. This hard/soft stuff is also nonsense.

beargonewild -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 6:14:32 AM)
makes note to change terminology to: will do, might do, refuse to do

RedMagic1 -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 6:31:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 I personally believe hard limits are nothing more than a codified step in the D/s dance with no more substance or purpose to them than the contracts they exist in. Surely that cannot be well aligned with any traditional leather (or bdsm) view. Here's a quote from the article I linked to. What is termed as a "hard limit" for you is something you will not do under any circumstance and is outside [y]our individual sphere of acceptance for any reason.... You should not have to explain to anyone but yourself and your Dominant why a certain activity is a hard limit. You know what they say: "If the assless chaps fit, wear them."

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 6:42:10 AM)
As somebody else mentioned, limits are rather subjective. I myself have played with and like to play with knives at times, and I understand where you are coming from. Many people have this notion that knife play is about carving somebody up like a thanksgiving turkey. Their minds automatically gravitate towards the extreme levels of a given activitity. Knife play is in fact many different things, ranging from tame, mild to wild extremes. For me playing with a knife is not that big of a deal. I grew up as a child around knives, owned knives and have done a lot of crazy shit with knives. I was into knife play before learning the ABC's of BDSM, heard about BDSM, knew a damn thing about this lifestyle. Knives being a part of a cultural thing, between Rural Upstate Western NY and living in Mobile, AL. Anyways, my cultural background is way different compared to other people's backgrounds. The sensation play of heated and cooled blades can be an awesome experience, without any cutting or knicking involved. Skin etching is awesome too. Hell, I'll etch things out on my own skin. One of the Best ways to gain somebody's trust in an activitity such as knife play, is to sit there do things to yourself and show them that it's not all that bad. Hell, at times just showing somebody something, then watching the Gleam of amazement in their eyes, then finally they can't wait to experience it. Next thing you know, they are asking you if you'd do it to them. This is after they figured out it's not that all that bad. Still, this is all at the Tame Levels of Knife play. It's when you get into pricking somebody with the tip of the knife and making little tiny cuts and wanting to taste or suck on blood, this can become an issue with limits in a heart beat. For some this ain't no big of deal and for others they are about ready to pass out at the mere thoughts of blood and bleeding. Mind you this is a blend of Knife play and Vamipirism.. but... you'll be amazed at the places you'll go with the more crazy shit you do in a life time. I will say this, I'd never chop off body parts with a knife. I'd never cut anybody deep with a knife nor would I stab them to death or do anything with a knife that would cause true harm. So I myself have limits that I consider sane. Then again, these are my own limits. What I am trying to express is not about activities themselves, but to what level people are playing at in a given activitity.

tazzygirl -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 6:43:28 AM)
quote: This hard/soft stuff is also nonsense. i wont fuck a dog... ever. i wont have anal... until i trust you. i see a huge difference there.

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 6:59:28 AM)
What sort of amazes me is the fact DOMs get the rap for pushing soft/hard limits. Yet, submissives are just as guilty of this too. Personally speaking, I've had women talk me into doing things that pushed passed some of my own internal limits. Only to find myself mind puking and going OMG I can't believe I just did that. So yeah, but DOMs seems to be the ones getting a Bad Rap for it on the message board. I think some people are afraid to talk about this, out of fear as being Label Service Tops or Do me Bottoms. Reality has a way of fucking with the stereotyped conformity that is often presented online here.

IrishMist -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 7:01:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: This hard/soft stuff is also nonsense. i wont fuck a dog... ever. i wont have anal... until i trust you. i see a huge difference there. LMAO Just a tad

CreativeDominant -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 7:04:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GaPhoto How many people actually know what the definiton of a hard limit is? I see so many people posting simple things like knife play as hard limits. By definition a hard limit is something that will mentally, emotionally, or physically damage the person beyond my ability to heal. Running a knife along the skin is not going to do that for the majority of the population. Collarme should define the definiton of limits on top of other things. Zack Actually, the definition I've seen of "hard limits" are anything that the submissive/dominant feels might be harmful mentally or physically or emotionally OR which goes against their own moral code or in which the receiver does not have the trust within themselves to allow another person to do this or it can be as simple as "I don't like this...for whatever reason...and I won't do it. For many people, while there may not be a physical injury of any nature from running a knife against the skin, the abject fear that arises from being bound with a sharp knife in the hands of someone who is unbound and in control of not just the knife but the situation is enough fear mentally and emotionally to shut them down...therefore, they have placed knife play as a hard limit.

sirsholly -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 7:09:19 AM)
quote: What sort of amazes me is the fact DOMs get the rap for pushing soft/hard limits. Yet, submissives are just as guilty of this too. Personally speaking, I've had women talk me into doing things that pushed passed some of my own internal limits. Only to find myself mind puking and going OMG I can't believe I just did that. if you were "pushed" into it be your submissive then i would say it was not much of a limit, she was not much of a submissive, and you were...i'll stop here.

sirsholly -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 7:18:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GaPhoto How many people actually know what the definiton of a hard limit is? I see so many people posting simple things like knife play as hard limits. By definition a hard limit is something that will mentally, emotionally, or physically damage the person beyond my ability to heal. Running a knife along the skin is not going to do that for the majority of the population. Collarme should define the definiton of limits on top of other things. oy. Your definition of a hard limit is ridiculous at best. There is no "list" of hard limits. It is up to each of us to define our limits for ourselves. It is never...NEVER...up to the Dom to break the limits a sub has set, no matter what they are. As to your definition that a hard limit will mentally, emotionally or physically damage a sub...please. One of my hard limits is tickling. I simply do not like it. There will be no mental, physical or emotional damage to me if i am tickled. However, there will be physical damage to the Dom (he will probably lose a nut) and he will lose a sub.

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 7:19:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: GaPhoto How many people actually know what the definiton of a hard limit is? I see so many people posting simple things like knife play as hard limits. By definition a hard limit is something that will mentally, emotionally, or physically damage the person beyond my ability to heal. Running a knife along the skin is not going to do that for the majority of the population. Collarme should define the definiton of limits on top of other things. Zack Actually, the definition I've seen of "hard limits" are anything that the submissive/dominant feels might be harmful mentally or physically or emotionally OR which goes against their own moral code or in which the receiver does not have the trust within themselves to allow another person to do this or it can be as simple as "I don't like this...for whatever reason...and I won't do it. For many people, while there may not be a physical injury of any nature from running a knife against the skin, the abject fear that arises from being bound with a sharp knife in the hands of someone who is unbound and in control of not just the knife but the situation is enough fear mentally and emotionally to shut them down...therefore, they have placed knife play as a hard limit. I totally see the point you are making here and it's a good one. However, knife play does not automatically include somebody being bound and at the mercy of somebody unbound either. However, this is a good example of a mental image that can be conjured up a persons imagination that they hold onto with a great amount of reverence of fear. a lot can be said for something called Trust in this example you have given as well. Trust that the person holding the knife won't cut them up for real. Then again, some of this stuff can be played upon for a good mindfuck as well. Clearly any activity where fear is involved once it's experienced will be or become a mental mind altering experience. Some people will face their own fears and then grow from it. Other people will freak out and have a panic attack over it. None the less, if you are doing this with somebody you TRUST, you should be able to realize that No Real Harm is gonna come to you. Some people piss themselves at the thoughts of getting on Roller Costers or Ferris Wheels because of fear of heights and stuff. Even if they do take the ride, and no harm come to them, they are physically sick and in a bad place of mind after the experience. Now, some people will convince themselves with or without the help of somebody else to face their fears. Some people can get past their fears, other people remain grid locked by certain fears for their whole life.

CatdeMedici -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 7:39:56 AM)
Hard Limits: Christians who expect everyone to be saved Idiots who drive down the center line Drunk drivers Phucktards Spammers wankers female supremacists drinking pee cucking ... oh wait, hmm one person's hard limits aren't anothers hard limits--maybe one on one communication and focusing on your business and not generalizing everyone else's is in order.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 7:59:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: GaPhoto How many people actually know what the definiton of a hard limit is? I see so many people posting simple things like knife play as hard limits. By definition a hard limit is something that will mentally, emotionally, or physically damage the person beyond my ability to heal. Running a knife along the skin is not going to do that for the majority of the population. Collarme should define the definiton of limits on top of other things. Zack Actually, the definition I've seen of "hard limits" are anything that the submissive/dominant feels might be harmful mentally or physically or emotionally OR which goes against their own moral code or in which the receiver does not have the trust within themselves to allow another person to do this or it can be as simple as "I don't like this...for whatever reason...and I won't do it. For many people, while there may not be a physical injury of any nature from running a knife against the skin, the abject fear that arises from being bound with a sharp knife in the hands of someone who is unbound and in control of not just the knife but the situation is enough fear mentally and emotionally to shut them down...therefore, they have placed knife play as a hard limit. I totally see the point you are making here and it's a good one. However, knife play does not automatically include somebody being bound and at the mercy of somebody unbound either. However, this is a good example of a mental image that can be conjured up a persons imagination that they hold onto with a great amount of reverence of fear. a lot can be said for something called Trust in this example you have given as well. Trust that the person holding the knife won't cut them up for real. Then again, some of this stuff can be played upon for a good mindfuck as well. Clearly any activity where fear is involved once it's experienced will be or become a mental mind altering experience. Some people will face their own fears and then grow from it. Other people will freak out and have a panic attack over it. None the less, if you are doing this with somebody you TRUST, you should be able to realize that No Real Harm is gonna come to you. Some people piss themselves at the thoughts of getting on Roller Costers or Ferris Wheels because of fear of heights and stuff. Even if they do take the ride, and no harm come to them, they are physically sick and in a bad place of mind after the experience. Now, some people will convince themselves with or without the help of somebody else to face their fears. Some people can get past their fears, other people remain grid locked by certain fears for their whole life. Exactly. I am of the mindset that we are all going to die one day. Surprise. However...I know there are ways of dying that I don't fear and ways of dying that I do fear tremendously. Dying in a fire, dying by drowning, dying in a nursing home while the mind I treasure devolves and I no longer control my body, my body does what it wants to do...these deaths I fear. Those are extreme and abstract ideas of fear though. And in discussing the idea of fear, let's not forget that fear need not be the only reason something is not done. I have absolutely zero interest in scat-play. I don't fear it. It does disgust and repulse me...the smell, the sight, the fetishism and elevation of something that is nothing but waste material...and not just waste but smelly and disease-causing waste at that. Mentally, I see it as not humiliation but degradation and my own moral code, while allowing for humiliation, does not allow for degradation. BUT...that's my limit to deal with. Someone else may not have that limit. Many more than me may not have that limit. Does that make it wrong for me to make it a limit? No, it does not. Does the fact that my defecating on someone is not likely to cause me harm and, if they request it, will not cause them harm make it less of a limit for me? No. I get to decide whether or not I will not do something whether or not it is physically or mentally or emotionally or spiritually harmful just because I don't want to and have valid reasons for not wanting to. As to the validity of my reasons...well, that is another whole thread.

LadyPact -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 8:02:41 AM)
Personally, I don't think CM should be defining anything for anyone other than TOS. In a sense, some definitions such as hard limits, dominance, submission, etc., are definitions that start as a basic concept for some and are refined over time as our experiences help to shape them. Your particular definition of the term, OP, does not match My own. Mine happens to be a bit broader and includes things that you may not have considered because you have yet to run across the situations in personal experience. For example, I have a hard limit of roman showers, even though that particular type of play isn't going to harm Me in any of the ways that are included in your definition. As a side note, please do Me a favor. The next time you get a bug up your butt and decide to write things up with a One True Way ring to them, please don't lay that on the teachings you've received from someone in the leather community. We get a bad enough rap the way it is.

LillyoftheVally -> RE: Limits (7/28/2009 8:04:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: What sort of amazes me is the fact DOMs get the rap for pushing soft/hard limits. Yet, submissives are just as guilty of this too. Personally speaking, I've had women talk me into doing things that pushed passed some of my own internal limits. Only to find myself mind puking and going OMG I can't believe I just did that. if you were "pushed" into it be your submissive then i would say it was not much of a limit, she was not much of a submissive, and you were...i'll stop here. You can't stop holly, I am on the edge of my seat wondering and agreeing

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