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Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture and... - 7/28/2009 9:06:28 PM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		The Government of Canada has been handing over captured Afghans to the local authorities knowing full well that they are likely to be tortured or just killed outright. And the Government has been caught lying about it.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=5501

quote:

Developments this week, including a federal government report and a newspaper exposé, have established irrefutably that the claims of Stephen Harper and his Conservative government that they were not aware that prisoners transferred to Afghan authorities by the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) were being tortured, or worse, are utterly false.


Despite our Supreme Court's cowardly decision not to hear the Afghan detainee case (can anybody sense the hand by Harper in this?), it is generally understood that Canada will not hand over a prisoner to a foreign power if that person is likely to suffer treatment that would be illegal in Canada, yet we are doing just that, on the flimsy rationale that our Constitution does not apply beyond our borders. The Canadian troops in Afghanistan are just that...Canadian, and they should abide by all the rules that apply in Canada regardless of where they are in the world. Canadian law prohibits extraditing a criminal if the criminal is facing the death penalty, so why is our government disregarding this law as a matter of policy?

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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/28/2009 10:08:56 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Realpolitik? 

Is there a way to blame Bush II?  That's been very popular on our side of the border. 


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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/28/2009 10:18:47 PM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Well I suppose I could probably find a way to blame Bush II, but that would sort of defeat the whole point of starting some Canadian threads. 
I posted this one particularly because it shows that the US is not the only country that is having issues with detainees.

What particularly bothers me is that for a long time Canada has fostered an international image as a "Good Guy". We don't bend rules, we follow them. When members of our Airborne Regiment tortured a Somali teenager, we tried and punished the guilty, and disbanded the entire regiment in disgrace. I remember when Bush I was announcing his coalition in the Gulf War, one of the first countries he mentioned as having signed on was Canada...why? Because the general impression was that if Canada was on side, then it was a just war. We are eroding what was the most potent item in our favour in international affairs. Canada used to be recognized the world over as a just and honourable country. We recognised Castro's government, we criticised the US invasion of Granada, we criticised the Argentine invasion of the Falklands. Canada used to be scrupulous about being on the side of right, and yet here we are throwing over some of our most cherished ideals for the sake of expedience, something that we used to be known for not doing.


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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/29/2009 4:00:14 PM   
autoRelease


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Status: offline 		I find it amusing how so many people seem to think war can ever be a "clean" business:  You attack the enemy on the battlefield in a fair fight and the just side wins. The reality is that torture is a virtually unavoidable byproduct of war - Along with with the death of innocent civilians, friendly fire accidents and several other nasty things. 

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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/29/2009 9:34:01 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

The reality is that torture is a virtually unavoidable byproduct of war
I suppose that you could argue that there is no way of preventing a soldier in the field from using torture to get the information he needs about what is waiting for him in the next village. I would even agree with you that it probably  happens a whole fuck of a lot, just like civilian casualties, friendly fire accidents and the aforementioned several other nasty things. No sensible person would argue otherwise. However to make it a matter of policy to do these things is what is at issue.

Our government is deliberately releasing prisoners in contravention of Canadian law. It has been argued that Canadian law doesn't apply overseas, however if you go to Thailand and hire an underage hooker you can be arrested and prosecuted for it on your return to Canada. It becomes clear that at least some Canadian laws apply to Canadian citizens the world over, so this argument sort of falls apart, the precedent has been set, and being as our legal system is based on the English Common Law which relies heavily on precedent it is pretty much settled.

More to the point, the government has established a policy that is illegal...the soldiers executing the law may be beyond the scope of Canadian law (but see the previous paragraph) but the government ministers and bureaucrats are not. They are here ordering these illegal acts.

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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/29/2009 9:43:09 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Realpolitik? 

Is there a way to blame Bush II?  That's been very popular on our side of the border. 



Rich, you should know by now there is ALWAYS a way to blame George Bush.
Didn't you get the memo?
Of course, it is his fault!

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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/30/2009 2:59:43 AM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		They do whatever they want and then let us think we live in a democracy. There’s no difference between former president Bush and Prime Minister Harper, they are both fascists. We think we live in a democracy but the truth is they can pick us up whenever they want to and take us to another country to be interrogated and tortured. This is why you get Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo and stuff like this with the Afghans. We really don't have any rights except for what they let us have.

You can’t fight city hall. They do whatever they want.

Actually, what really needs to be done is they need to change the law. It’s not acceptable that people in government are immune from prosecution. It goes back to the old days with divine right and Kings who could do whatever they want, like Henry VIII changing the law so he could get a divorce and chopping his wives heads off.

This is why they can read our e-mails and listen to our telephone calls and the RCMP can tazer and murder an innocent man and nothing is done about it, like that Polish man visiting his mother in Vancouver and he couldn’t speak English.

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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/30/2009 7:06:42 AM   
chiaThePet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

There’s no difference between former president Bush and Prime Minister Harper, they are both fascists.



Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand exhale.

chia* (the pet)


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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/30/2009 4:19:15 PM   
autoRelease


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

However to make it a matter of policy to do these things is what is at issue.


Point taken.  Yet would it be better if we had a policy against torture but did it anyway?

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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/30/2009 4:37:26 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

However to make it a matter of policy to do these things is what is at issue.



So its better to unofficially condone a practice out of necessity, but let those who execute that unofficial policy hang when they do it?

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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/30/2009 8:03:36 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

Point taken.  Yet would it be better if we had a policy against torture but did it anyway?

quote:

So its better to unofficially condone a practice out of necessity, but let those who execute that unofficial policy hang when they do it?

No. My point in the post was to admit that it happens. It should not be condoned in any way, but I was replying to the post about people expecting such things to not happen in wartime. I expect them to happen, and I also expect them to be punished (at least where applicable, collateral damage is most often unavoidable, I would never expect soldiers to not defend themselves if their attackers were hiding in a building that might also contain civilians). Torture and summary executions should never be condoned, officially or unofficially, and it should be punished whenever it is found to have happened. The fact that I accept that it will happen in no way implies I accept that it should happen, surely you can see the difference.


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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/31/2009 3:10:43 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Point taken.  Yet would it be better if we had a policy against torture but did it anyway?

quote:

So its better to unofficially condone a practice out of necessity, but let those who execute that unofficial policy hang when they do it?

No. My point in the post was to admit that it happens. It should not be condoned in any way, but I was replying to the post about people expecting such things to not happen in wartime. I expect them to happen, and I also expect them to be punished (at least where applicable, collateral damage is most often unavoidable, I would never expect soldiers to not defend themselves if their attackers were hiding in a building that might also contain civilians). Torture and summary executions should never be condoned, officially or unofficially, and it should be punished whenever it is found to have happened. The fact that I accept that it will happen in no way implies I accept that it should happen, surely you can see the difference.



what I can see is that you acknowledge that torture is inevitable in some circumstances, which is also a tacit admission that a soldier can find it to be the only way to get his job done safely. If there were "alternative legal means" of achieving the same goal in the same amount of time and with the same effectiveness, surely he would use them.

Since it is a necessary tool that will inevitably be used, to not "condone" it is just a way of shifting the blame for a necessary policy off of your own shoulders and onto his.

At least it isnt the same "torture doesnt work" nonsense.


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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/31/2009 11:42:33 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Arpig, but that's their ***culture*** in Afganistan!
That's how they do things in that country! Are you suggesting that we *interfere* in their internal affairs and slap their "culture" in the face?

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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/31/2009 12:25:01 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		I like the Canadians a little bit more after hearing this...

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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 7/31/2009 8:47:19 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

what I can see is that you acknowledge that torture is inevitable in some circumstances, which is also a tacit admission that a soldier can find it to be the only way to get his job done safely. If there were "alternative legal means" of achieving the same goal in the same amount of time and with the same effectiveness, surely he would use them.

Since it is a necessary tool that will inevitably be used, to not "condone" it is just a way of shifting the blame for a necessary policy off of your own shoulders and onto his.

Well we have drifted off topic a bit, but what the hey. It is not a necessary tool, it may well be the expedient tool, maybe even the best tool, but it is not necessary. I accept that it will happen in the field because there will be times when the soldier in question will decide that he has no other choice. If he gets found out (and by this I am in no way trying to imply that its OK as long as you don't get caught, its not OK, but obviously if you don't get caught there isn't a whole fuck of a lot that can be done about it), then he should be brought up on charges and he can defend himself, explaining why he felt it needful and let the court decide. Our country has rules regarding conduct during wartime, and our troops should abide by those rules.

Now to get things back on topic, it wasn't troops torturing that is at issue, in fact as far as I know there is nobody claiming Canadian troops have mistreated anybody. What is at issue is the government following a policy that is in contravention of Canadian law. That and the Supreme Court ducking the whole issue by declining to hear the case. A case that would seriously embarrass the Harper government.I don't know about anybody else, but I smell rat in this.


< Message edited by Arpig -- 7/31/2009 8:50:35 PM >

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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 8/1/2009 11:15:11 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Arpig, it's not the job of a soldier to help, aid, or assist his enemy.
It baffles me that some people seem to think that soldiers should be "social workers", "peace-keepers" (hurl!) or in any way concerned with the enemy's "rights."
Where does that type of thinking come from? Maybe the "anti-Bush" people? I was "anti-Bush" and I certainly didn't think tht way!
I'd laugh at the people who said that "torture doesn't yield any information." Who cares? It's revenge on the savages.
We (Western countries) really do need to get out of that foolish, archaic "Geneva Conventions."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 8/1/2009 11:33:10 AM >

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RE: Canadian Thread #1: Government Complicit in Torture... - 8/2/2009 1:04:27 PM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		Well Popeye, until we do get out of the Geneva Conventions (something I would oppose doing personally) we are bound to abide by them, and we should do so.

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