RE: "how can he/she control me..." (Full Version)

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Venatrix -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/29/2009 2:20:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

Add to that the high percentage of taxes paid on cigs and this is actually a really silly road for non-smokers, at least in the UK, to go down.  Because the truth is that we're subsidising the rest of you, not the other way round).



You're implying that all of that tobacco revenue is going to the NHS.  It isn't. 



Apocalypso -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/29/2009 2:24:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

You're implying that all of that tobacco revenue is going to the NHS.  It isn't. 
No, I'm implying that it's going to government services used by non-smokers.  And if it wasn't there, the taxes would obviously need to be raised from elsewhere or there would need to be cuts.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/29/2009 2:24:14 PM)

Panda, I ALWAYS share my food!  [:)]

The smoking thing, I knew it would come up...  I am a nonsmoker.  Many years ago, my dad and I both quit.  Cold turkey.  Now, I cannot stand to be around cigarette smoke, hate the smell of it in my clothes, BLEH.  I am considering a guy who smokes, the cigs are not a dealbreaker YET. 

But yes, folks that enjoy smoking, party on!  Have a clove, and dedicate it to me.  (LOVE clove cigs!)  It's your body, fuck it up as you like, I say!  I cheerfully continue to pay into Medicare on your behalf, and you can kick in for my meds with your wages! 

To me, doing personally unhealthy things like smoking, or eating entire bags of potato chips daily, or having unprotected sex with strangers, are personal CHOICES.  



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/29/2009 3:23:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

You know, sometimes I think we just make this -way- harder on ourselves than we need to


I'm not sure if you're replying to me or not. It looks as though you are. If that's the case, i would suggest that one example of making things much harder than we need to make them would be not reading the posts to which we are responding. If you're not replying to me, then this response doesn't apply, and you should feel free to ignore it.



Nope... I used the Fast Reply box and that's just where it came up. (I didn't ignore the post, because I prefer that people not have to be exposed to perceived unpleasantness when it can be simply resolved by a little explanation.)

Dame Calla



autoRelease -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/29/2009 3:27:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Submissives: ever been turned off a dominant by a real or percieved lack of self control on their part? Temper, poor habits, etc?


Not a dominant no since I'm new to the scene, but people in general definitely.  I wouldn't even consider a relationship, D/s or otherwise, with someone who showed a bad temper.



WickedZer0 -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/29/2009 3:28:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

No, because your argument is based upon a false comparison. To stick with one example for the sake of simplicity, it's not judgmental or socialistic to say that smoking is unhealthy  - it's simply an objective fact, and it has nothing to do with how it's perceived in "the eyes of the masses". Smoking is unhealthy, period, no matter how prickly and defensive some smokers choose to get when they hear that. The fact that many vanilla people feel that what we do is unhealthy is subjective and completely irrelevant, unless of course  you agree with them. If you feel that practicing BDSM is, in fact, unhealthy, then go ahead and make that argument and draw your comparison.



It's judgmental to come to a decision on what another should or shouldn't do, for most reasons, and socialistic to think you can, maybe even elitist. And my comparison may not be perfect but where one could argue smoking has significant health risks, BDSM has inherent dangers, hence being safe, sane, consensual, have safety cutter handy, etc. I'm still going to do it.

Smoking/drinking/drugs/over-eating all have significant risks attached to them, they probably aren't even a good idea, but there is probably so much more to people doing those things. Self-control can certainly be a defining characteristic, but it doesn't have to be, nor does the lack there of.




littlewonder -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/29/2009 3:28:53 PM)

quote:

Submissives: ever been turned off a dominant by a real or percieved lack of self control on their part? Temper, poor habits, etc?


Yup. Pretty much the entire reason I stayed single for over 10 years and rarely dated. I found most who called themselves "doms" usually had very little control in their lives or over themselves. Huge turnoff to me.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/29/2009 3:36:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

You know as a service-orientated submissive I admit to a little bit of drooling as I read through this... quite a few opportunities to serve here.

But you see my point is is that when there's two people in a relationship or dynamic they interact, feed off each other, influence each other and also motivate each other.

I'm pretty sure that with someone like Dame Calla there could be some chain reactions, wherein she wouldn't need to worry about stuff like laundry and dishes, cleaning or being organized because she could just turn to me and ask and know just exactly how things stand and where things are, which relieves a burden and which she in turn would find ways of motivating me which would lead onto something else and so on... and I bet you we'd still find time to sit down and discuss writing over coffee.

Shakespeare once said,'There is nothing good or bad in this world, only thinking makes it so.' It's that same principle, is the glass half empty or half full? Now someone else might see the above as a lack of self control, laziness even, but I not, I just see opportunities to serve, to interact, and without being a perfectionist by any means the chance to make someone's life a little easier, a little more pleasant, and a little happier.

None of the above would affect in any way how I see her as a person or a dominant.



I don't even know what to say to this, except that -this-, beyond anything else, this -interface-, this ebb-and-flow, is why I became attracted to authority dynamics in the first place.

OT, How do you feel about Victoriana and Steampunk, Stella? [;)]

Dame Calla



LATEXBABY64 -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/30/2009 7:12:05 AM)

the simple reason to the point of why bdsm ds is different then nillia other wise we would not do it is this the dynamics of interchange are very different interactions are different sex is different i can go if you like but if you do not know by now what you doing in the lifestyle lol



CreativeDominant -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/30/2009 8:00:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

"...when they can't even control themselves?"

Submissives: ever been turned off a dominant by a real or percieved lack of self control on their part? Temper, poor habits, etc?

Dominants: how important is self control to your "vision" of dominant behaviour? Has it ever been an issue for yourself?

I have to exert some self control right now, and go to work [:D]
As I read through this, I am amazed at what some people see as self-control and the levels of "self-control" that must be evident in the dominant they seek.

Control of your life?  Depends on what you mean by control.  You can do all you can do in business to make a go of things and if you have any smarts about how you've done it, you can go up.  But does that mean that the guy who did the same thing as the guy down the street but only went up 5% as compared to the other guy going up 15% mean that the 5% guy didn't control things as well?  Does the guy who ends up living austerely in a basement level apartment after his divorce who goes to work each day and who strives to better his life and show his character by paying his child support on time, paying off the tax debt he's been left with, paying his rent on time but who cannot pay for fancy dinners and vacations for/with his submissive show less control of his life than the married dominant who is capable of paying not only for his life with his wife but his submissive?  What is the indicator of control of his life in this instance...or is there not one because he isn't out of debt yet?  Does the dominant who controls his temper...but with the occasional mild outburst, who smokes... but is courteous and considerate enough to take it outside or not do it around his non-smoking submissive, who runs a large corporation and manages his employees in a competent, professional manner...but who occasionally shows his sensitive, vulnerable, fallible side to his submissive have less self-control than the non-smoking dominant who never loses his temper and never seems to be wrong but who cannot seem to find a position any higher than go-fer?



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/30/2009 9:27:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Does the dominant who controls his temper...but with the occasional mild outburst, who smokes... but is courteous and considerate enough to take it outside or not do it around his non-smoking submissive, who runs a large corporation and manages his employees in a competent, professional manner...but who occasionally shows his sensitive, vulnerable, fallible side to his submissive have less self-control than the non-smoking dominant who never loses his temper and never seems to be wrong but who cannot seem to find a position any higher than go-fer?



Quite possibly. Why not? Professional success is certainly one (possible) indicator of a stable personality, but it is by no means the only one and certainly not the most reliable one. Your example doesn't give us enough information about either subject to make an accurate comparative evaluation of their personalities. There's no reason at all to assume that the first guy is obviously a more stable, controlled man primarily because he's achieved professional success.

And for that matter, why does it have to be a zero-sum equation? It's just as possible that, in the eyes of many submissives, neither man meets their standard of personal control. They both have obvious strengths, but they both also have obvious weaknesses. I don't see any inherent reason to believe that either man is clearly ahead of the other in this comparison.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/30/2009 9:56:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedZer0


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

No, because your argument is based upon a false comparison. To stick with one example for the sake of simplicity, it's not judgmental or socialistic to say that smoking is unhealthy  - it's simply an objective fact, and it has nothing to do with how it's perceived in "the eyes of the masses". Smoking is unhealthy, period, no matter how prickly and defensive some smokers choose to get when they hear that. The fact that many vanilla people feel that what we do is unhealthy is subjective and completely irrelevant, unless of course  you agree with them. If you feel that practicing BDSM is, in fact, unhealthy, then go ahead and make that argument and draw your comparison.



It's judgmental to come to a decision on what another should or shouldn't do, for most reasons, and socialistic to think you can, maybe even elitist.


Yes, it would be. But I didn't say anything about what anyone should or shouldn't be doing. What I have said is that smoking is a stupid, self-destructive choice to make, and a strong indicator of either poor self-control or poor decision making. I haven't said anything about whether or not anybody should or shouldn't be doing it, nor have I said that people who make that stupid and self-destructive choice are necessarily stupid or self-destructive people. Everybody makes stupid and self-destructive decisions every day - hell, most of us make stupid and self-destructive decisions of one sort or another every 20 minutes. It's just that that particular stupid and self-destructive decision is fundamentally incompatible with my personal priorities and life choices, and I would choose not to become involved with someone who makes such radically different life choices.


quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedZer0
And my comparison may not be perfect but where one could argue smoking has significant health risks, BDSM has inherent dangers, hence being safe, sane, consensual, have safety cutter handy, etc. I'm still going to do it.


Fair enough, but it still isn't an accurate comparison. Smoking has been proven to cause cancer, heart disease, and other serious illnesses, and statistically it shortens your life by anywhere from 5 to 10 years. The risks are extreme, and it's almost inevitable that you will seriously damage your health to some degree if you choose to become addicted to smoking. You can't even come close to saying the same thing about BDSM. The risks of practicing BDSM are comparatively extremely slight, and far more manageable. It's way too much of a stretch trying to compare the two.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/30/2009 10:33:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
I need someone whose priorities in life are compatible with mine, and whose decisionmaking process is rational to me. Smoking does not necessarily make them any less capable as a dominant, but they clearly don't have compatible priorities and I don't trust the way they make major decisions in their life.

As a smoker, that is perfectly valid to me.  My basic argument is that I enjoy smoking and I consider that enjoyment to be more significant then the long-term effects.  And that springs from the general viewpoint that the present is what matters.

Now, I think that's entirely rational and internally consistent.


First of all, thanks for getting it. It's a touchy issue, and a lot of smokers don't. It tends to provoke an emotional, defensive reaction in people, and it's always a little risky even bringing the subject up.

Second, I agree with you. It is an entirely valid, and entirely internally consistent position. Personally, I don't consider it rational but our individual perceptions of what is and is not rational are biased in accordance with our own personal priorities. The important thing is, the position you hold was arrived at by a rational process. And that does make it a rational position, by the only definition of rational that matters - because you know what you're doing, and you're the only one who has to live (or die) with the consequences of your decision. There was a period of my life where I made the exact same choice, by pretty much the exact same process, and it was a completely rational decision for me up until I started to prioritize my life differently. At which point, it was no longer rational, and I made a different decision that was.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
But, quite obviously, it would mean we have entirely different worldviews and would not be compatible.  I suspect neither of us are going to be crying ourselves to sleep because of that. 


Not me. Nothing personal, because I like you and have a lot of respect for you. But even if we were otherwise compatible in terms of what we were looking for in a partner, and this was the only thing standing between us, I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it, because as you say - it clearly reflects fundamentally incompatible worldviews. I've got lots of friends - even very good friends - with radically different worldviews (everything from George Bush republicans to radical Greenpeace activists), and most of us would crawl across hot coals to be there for one another if we were in need. But there's often an enormous difference between being lifelong friends and life partners.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
The only thing I roll my eyes at slightly is the tendency to leap to the conclusion that if something is disapproved of, it must be there because of lack of self-control.  Actually, I've given up smoking for a year before. Because somebody bet me five hundred pounds I couldn't.  But I started again, because I wanted to.  I find it somewhat strange that some people seem so determined to absolve me of responsibility for my actions, by presenting my choice as not freely made.


Again, I agree. In my opinion, smoking would only indicate poor self-control if someone wanted to quit, but couldn't muster the gumption to do it. In your case, it doesn't say anything at all about your self-control. You know what you're doing, you made your choice, and it's entirely consistent.



Apocalypso -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/30/2009 11:16:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
First of all, thanks for getting it. It's a touchy issue, and a lot of smokers don't. It tends to provoke an emotional, defensive reaction in people, and it's always a little risky even bringing the subject up.


And that doesn't seem rational to me.  Because I'm pretty upfront about the fact I'm only interested in partners I consider highly intelligent.  And that gets nowhere near the same level of outrage.  Despite the fact, that actually, I'm excluding people based on things they haven't got a choice about.

I suspect some of it is that many smokers aren't upfront about it.  Which means, by the time it gets brought up, they've already got their hopes up.  (As has the non-smoker, obvously).  Which is a major reason why I'm smoking in several of my photos and bring it up casually in conversation very early on.  I don't see what I'd gain by realising it was an issue further down the line.

quote:

Not me. Nothing personal, because I like you and have a lot of respect for you. But even if we were otherwise compatible in terms of what we were looking for in a partner, and this was the only thing standing between us, I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it, because as you say - it clearly reflects fundamentally incompatible worldviews. I've got lots of friends - even very good friends - with radically different worldviews (everything from George Bush republicans to radical Greenpeace activists), and most of us would crawl across hot coals to be there for one another if we were in need. But there's often an enormous difference between being lifelong friends and life partners.

And likewise.  But as I'm sure we'd both agree, you can like and respect someone while disagreeing with their decisions.  And you can like and respect someone but still not be compatible with them as far as a relationship is concerned.  There are dommes I like and respect greatly.  But we'd not be compatible in a relationship for obvious reasons.  And I don't see this single issue as any different than that one.

Because it's not just an issue with life partners, it's there with any kind of relationship I think.  Practically, it's actually a lot easier for my non-smoking friends not to be around my smoking that much, in a way it isn't for a partner.



LillyoftheVally -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/30/2009 11:23:54 AM)

See I am probably guilty of that, i don't bring up smoking early on necessarily, not because I am withholding information just that it never really registers as something I need to confess to, I guess I should consider that in future.



Apocalypso -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/30/2009 11:28:17 AM)

I think so.  I think a lot of smokers don't realise how important it is to non-smokers.  We're unlikely to care if people don't smoke, but the reverse isn't true.



fannyslapper -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/30/2009 11:55:39 AM)

Ok, ok... I give in, I'm a smoker... There, confessed it. The fact that I only smoke at work though, does that mean I have high self control because when I'm away from work I don't smoke at all, regardless of the time span, be it for a day or a couple of weeks. Or do I have poor self control because I will smoke again when I go to work? I don't have a stressful job btw, I just enjoy smoking sometimes so choose to do it when I'm working, earning a living. I also never loose my temper nor do I drink excessively or take illegal drugs, I've never tried an illegal drug either for that matter. I don't know if any of that should or does make me a perfect Dom or a wannabe faker. I do know that the D/s relationships I've had, have all been where I wanted to take the dominant role to someone who wanted to be submissive to me. If there was an issue with a subs perception of me because of a behavioural trait I would hope she felt trusting enough to mention it... But then again it might only result in her getting 30 minutes OTK!



LillyoftheVally -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/30/2009 1:06:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

I think so. I think a lot of smokers don't realise how important it is to non-smokers. We're unlikely to care if people don't smoke, but the reverse isn't true.


I dunno plenty of none smokers wind me up :P



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/30/2009 1:14:10 PM)

quote:

Ok, ok... I give in, I'm a smoker... There, confessed it. The fact that I only smoke at work though, does that mean I have high self control because when I'm away from work I don't smoke at all, regardless of the time span, be it for a day or a couple of weeks.


See, flip this around and it's my beloved, SR. She -only- smokes at -home-. Whether it's a 6 hour day or a 16 hour day, she doesn't smoke at all at work, but she -likes- having a cigarette or two in the evening at home. It's not like it -owns- her or anything, and she -has- gone without cigarettes for anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 months... but she -likes- cigarettes... particularly -mint- cigarettes (not menthol, but -mint-). So whose to say that she has poor self-control because she treats herself to a cigarette in the evening when it's something she truly -likes-, just because public opinion is against a person's right to choose what they put into their own bodies? IMO, the whole idea that someone else can decide whether something is right for an adult to enjoy doing or having is ridiculous.

Dame Calla



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: "how can he/she control me..." (7/30/2009 3:30:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

IMO, the whole idea that someone else can decide whether something is right for an adult to enjoy doing or having is ridiculous.

Dame Calla



I want to add a qualifier to this that my brain was too work-fried to integrate (and now it's too late to edit)... the exception to the whole issue of who gets to decide whether a person can have/enjoy something comes when we voluntarily enter into relationships where we abridge that right -- and not just D/s relationships. If I'm paying a smoking cessation coach to make sure I don't light up, then I've already acknowledged that I've yielded that authority over my smoking habits. If I don't want hir meddling, then I stop paying hir to meddle. In the same way, though, entering into a D/s relationship of any caliber where this is one of the pre-determined areas that is absorbed into that relationship -does- mean someone else gets to decide.

I think I was more ranting about the random regulation of things "for someone else's good", when it is really so Joe Blow doesn't have to be -exposed- to what Jack Jingle likes, because it bothers poor Joe's sensibilities.

Hope that made sense. It's been a torturous week, I have one day left, and I think I'm losing my marbles somewhere between here and work.

Dame Calla



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