RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison.

RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (Full Version)

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subfever -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/31/2009 9:53:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: And what about all the crimes that are not committed in public space? Why that's simple, just put motion sensitive cameras in every room in the country as well...and remote sensors scattered about the wilderness, hell why stop there, why not just chip everybody with a GPS chip, so that the government will be able to locate anybody at any time.....for the safety of all of course. You guys aren't even being creative, what you do is remove some vital piece of the human body like the pancreas, well, then what you do is couple the chip you are talking about above, with an automatic insulin system. So, if they remove the tracking chip/insulin maker device, they'll die without insulin. Well, to solve the tampering problem, as obviously they could inject insulin obtained on the illegal black market. If the device is A. Exposed to Air, it will inject a lethal dose into their system, also coupled with that is if the tracking device does not make contact with the central server every five minutes it will also result in a lethal immediate dose. These devices, will be 100% hardware based software embedded systems. with only a small amount of cache to facilitate momentary linkage breakages with the central server. Virtually 100% safety for all, as anyone observed doing a crime, could be killed instantly. Removal of the device, or attempting to subvert the main server(to prevent the risk of complete death of all people instantly, the main server would only control small regions of the larger grid), would result in certain death. Have the men behind the curtain tried to recruit you yet?

MasterMgm -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/31/2009 9:57:19 PM)
I am a ex-con, I was incarcerated for 48 months in the Federal Prison for racketeering (loan sharking ) and illegal gambling business .Which by the way under the new sentencing law both of the crimes are under the same heading just a higher offense level and zone. I was originally charge with 4 counts of racketeering and 10 counts of illegal gambling. The Assistant US Attorney informed my lawyer and I, he would reduce the counts to 1 counts of racketeering and 2 count of illegal gambling if I plead guilty and ask the judge for prison term of 36 months to 59 months. All I can said is that the criminal systems in American is broken, there are al ot of people who if giving the chance with drug treatment (no I was not on drugs,when I committed my crime I just like making money) and job training would come out of prison as better and productive citizens. I know people think the federal prison system is better than the state system, trust me, every prison systems is the same.

Arpig -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/31/2009 10:03:30 PM)
quote: Some have drank the coolaid and think it taste wonderful. All of this trading freedom for security ends up with you a slave and still not safe. Sorry guys I forgot to put the [/sarcasm] at the end of my post

blacksword404 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (7/31/2009 10:19:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Some have drank the coolaid and think it taste wonderful. All of this trading freedom for security ends up with you a slave and still not safe. Sorry guys I forgot to put the [/sarcasm] at the end of my post I got the sarcasm.

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/1/2009 2:04:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou Well you know Mister Loki45 the cost of producing the drug that the addicts are trying to get is pennies. The whole value of the drug is a consequence of the illegal nature of it, and the hoops and risks one must go through to get it to the demand source. Also, the only reason kids to a large degree get super easy access to the drug is because they purchase it from unregulated sources, it would be much harder to get if there was some legal alternative source the addicted to could get it from. Also violence is largely a function of the illegal nature, I mean I'm no scholar but prohibition pretty well proves that. "To get the drug" is not the only way violence is commited. There are many who were high on PCP, Meth, whatever who just 'lost their f-in' minds' and murdered people. How's legalization going to stop them? (Don't get me wrong, I'm for letting people shoot whatever they want into their veins, because I just don't give a fuck. I was just pointing out how those who've murdered people "because man they were just so high and out of their minds" made begin to see that it was something that need to be controlled. And that control was to make it illegal.....what a 'great' idea.)

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/1/2009 2:07:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig What was that line about liberty and safety..... It was just that. "A line." And there was a thread in the politics forum where they quoted such lines back and forth ad naseum. We can do that here, too if you like. But in the end, they're just that -- lines. Unless of course you want to start throwing out the quote from the ones who said a true democracy will always destroy itself. (Another 'quote' tossed out in that thread.) You see...cameras being everywhere doesn't hinder liberty one bit. That's a (faulty) logical leap made by a ficticious novel. If someone can see where you go.......so what? It doesn't stop you from going there. It doesn't inhibit you in anyway. But when you're 'there' and some punk puts a gun in your face....someone watching a monitor is able to dispatch cops instantly without anyone needing to dial 911 for you.

cadenas -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/1/2009 11:38:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Consequences teach. I would go for a very harsh prison system - but with much shorter sentences. The US prison system already is among the harshest in the world. quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or I really hate to say this, but to REALLY rehabilitate someone it would require very strict supervision along with a great degree of control over their environment. The resources needed simply are not there. To come even close in this country, we would have to spend tenfold what we spend on the entire penal system. Actually, on that you are mistaken. Rehabilitation is FAR cheaper than the penal system we have right now. California is learning that lesson right now; the CA penal system is bankrupting the state. And quite frankly, harsh punishments, what we are doing right now, isn't working. All our spending on the prison system hasn't reduced the crime rate. If harsh punishment really worked, the death penalty should have led to a very low murder rate. Instead, our murder rate is unusually high. No, locking somebody up is the most expensive option. It is a LOT cheaper to pay for an inmate's high-school or college education - or to pay for psychiatric treatment, or whatever else may be needed - than to just release him and wait a year until he is arrested again, in an endless cycle that lasts 40+ years. It just isn't politically palatable because it means doing good things for "bad people".

cadenas -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/1/2009 11:48:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 As for the death penalty....I know it's a flawed system. But it's all we've got. I want the system improved so innocent ones don't get the death penalty, but I don't feel that ceasing its use altogether is the answer. Because as I pointed out in a previous post....what is a person's motivation not to go on a killing spree or commit some other heinous act if the worst thing we can threaten them with is free room and board for life? That sounds good in theory - but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. If the death penalty worked that way, the USA should have a near-zero murder rate. In reality, the murder rate is through the roof. I like to compare the USA with Germany, because both countries are very, very similar economically, socially, and in most other respects, and also because I happened to have seen the crime statistics (they are available from the FBI and the Bundeskriminalamt, respectively, for those who want to fact-check). And the crime rates support that. The German crime rate is consistently a little higher than the US crime rate, regardless of what crime you are talking about (probably reflecting the somewhat better economy of the USA). Theft, Fraud, Bank robbery, kidnapping - all fit very nicely into that pattern. Except for murder. The murder rate in the USA is about ten times the German murder rate. You know what the maximum sentence is in Germany? 15 years to life. And the parole hearing after 15 years isn't the sham we have here; it's a real parole hearing, most people are actually released on parole at that point. The death penalty and life without a meaningful availability of parole are both unconstitutional there. So, quite simply, the death penalty - or harsh penalties in general - don't work. In fact, the may well aggravate the problem because the perpetrator has nothing left to lose.

cadenas -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/2/2009 12:01:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Holy crap!! Did you just say that we have to execute people otherwise other people will commit murder or rape intentionally just to get life imprisonment?? Please tell me I have somehow misunderstood. Actually what I'm asking is what is a murderer's motivation not to murder if he knows his life is 'safe' and he will never receive anywhere close to the harm he inflicts on others? Actually, the death penalty allows murderers to get away completely scot-free, without even prison, if only the murderer is a little savvy. If I for some reason committed a murder, I'd simply move to Tijuana and live out my life in peace. Mexico doesn't extradite if there is the threat of death penalty. Most of the rest of the world refuses to extradite, too. Ira Einhorn lived peacefully in France for 30 years because Pennsylvania refused to take the death penalty off the table and grant him a new trial. Fortunately, most states are getting more pragmatic and take the death penalty off the table as soon as there is an extradition involved.

ShaharThorne -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/2/2009 12:03:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 Wow. That thought of your guest made me think of a movie I saw in school once, called the Lottery. I'm not sure the purpose of the movie, or even why the teacher made us watch it, but every week, (or every month), I forget, there was a town that held a lottery. The winner was stoned to death. LOL...ok...back to your originally scheduled show, now. :) It was a yearly "Lottery" and it was a sacrifical ritual for the local farmers to have good crops. The author was Shirley Jackson. Back to the debate about prisons...

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/2/2009 1:55:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cadenas The death penalty and life without a meaningful availability of parole are both unconstitutional there. So, quite simply, the death penalty - or harsh penalties in general - don't work. In fact, the may well aggravate the problem because the perpetrator has nothing left to lose. Too bad the victims don't get a 'meaningful availability of parole.' But that's because....you know...they're DEAD. But hey that's cool, so what if they were murderered, right? Let's be nice to the murderers and give them a real chance.......at killing again. What an awesome idea.

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/2/2009 1:57:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cadenas Actually, the death penalty allows murderers to get away completely scot-free, without even prison, if only the murderer is a little savvy. If I for some reason committed a murder, I'd simply move to Tijuana and live out my life in peace. Mexico doesn't extradite if there is the threat of death penalty. Most of the rest of the world refuses to extradite, too. Ira Einhorn lived peacefully in France for 30 years because Pennsylvania refused to take the death penalty off the table and grant him a new trial. Fortunately, most states are getting more pragmatic and take the death penalty off the table as soon as there is an extradition involved. Ahh but that's where you run into what the death penalty is actually for -- permanent removal of the offender from society. I never said "all society." If he want to live it up in the shit-hole that is mexico, so be it. That's kinda like prison anyway. At least they are not in 'our' society. Besides, with the ever-escalating drug violence down there.....an American living down there is probably more likely to be murderered. As for the 'pragmatic' approach you like so much -- that's one good thing about living in Texas. If you murder someone here.....we will kill you back.

cadenas -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/2/2009 4:02:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: cadenas Actually, the death penalty allows murderers to get away completely scot-free, without even prison, if only the murderer is a little savvy. If I for some reason committed a murder, I'd simply move to Tijuana and live out my life in peace. Mexico doesn't extradite if there is the threat of death penalty. Most of the rest of the world refuses to extradite, too. Ira Einhorn lived peacefully in France for 30 years because Pennsylvania refused to take the death penalty off the table and grant him a new trial. Fortunately, most states are getting more pragmatic and take the death penalty off the table as soon as there is an extradition involved. Ahh but that's where you run into what the death penalty is actually for -- permanent removal of the offender from society. I never said "all society." If he want to live it up in the shit-hole that is mexico, so be it. That's kinda like prison anyway. At least they are not in 'our' society. Besides, with the ever-escalating drug violence down there.....an American living down there is probably more likely to be murderered. Google for Angel Resendez (the "Railroad Killer") for how well that works. Lived in Mexico and staged a serial-killing spree in the USA, with 9 victims known in the last two years, and it is suspected that he may have been killing since the 1970s. The only way he got caught is because he got suicidal and surrendered himself. quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 As for the 'pragmatic' approach you like so much -- that's one good thing about living in Texas. If you murder someone here.....we will kill you back. Don't get too giddy. Even in Texas, the majority of murderers don't get the death penalty (in 2007, only 14 out of 51 murder convicts were sentenced to death).

cadenas -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/2/2009 4:25:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: calamitysandra Loki, which measures do you propose, to make sure only the really guilty are executed? Which changes to the system would it take in your opinion? The easiest one of all, I'm afraid, is also the one no one seems to want to take. Cameras on every corner. No thanks. If you want to live in that kind of police state, go right ahead - I'm sure they'll let you move into an empty cell in the nearest prison. Me, I prefer to keep my freedom. quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 Look at cities where they have such widespread surveilance in place. Any crime, no matter how minor, is on a screen somewhere. They can even catch vandals and other random 'minor' crimes. Actually, London has tried that. They ran into a problem. They have so many cameras there that nobody watches the recordings. At the same time, this huge number of cameras drains resources from police. In London a whopping 3% of street robberies are solved through the cameras. The London Chief of Police (Detective Chief Inspector) Mick Neville called it "an utter fiasco".

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/2/2009 1:26:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cadenas No thanks. If you want to live in that kind of police state, go right ahead - I'm sure they'll let you move into an empty cell in the nearest prison. Me, I prefer to keep my freedom. And how, praytell would the presence of cameras take your freedom? Are you one of those weird religious folks who believes your soul is stolen by a camera? Tell me, how would being no a security camera (which you are every time you walk into a store) take away your freedom?

nudedude -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/2/2009 2:37:35 PM)
And how, praytell would the presence of cameras take your freedom? Are you one of those weird religious folks who believes your soul is stolen by a camera? Tell me, how would being no a security camera (which you are every time you walk into a store) take away your freedom? here is your answer. fast foward thru the first half if you like. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/2/2009 2:45:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nudedude here is your answer. fast foward thru the first half if you like. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173 A link that begins with a quote from a writer of a FICTIONAL novel fails before it even gets going, sorry. If you'd like to explain how cameras steal freedom, fine. But I'm not going to take the word of a fictional story.

blacksword404 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/2/2009 3:19:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: nudedude here is your answer. fast foward thru the first half if you like. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173 A link that begins with a quote from a writer of a FICTIONAL novel fails before it even gets going, sorry. If you'd like to explain how cameras steal freedom, fine. But I'm not going to take the word of a fictional story. So you reject wisdom because of the source? I was under the impression that wise men took wisdom from wherever they found it. But maybe it's just me.

Loki45 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/2/2009 4:14:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 So you reject wisdom because of the source? I was under the impression that wise men took wisdom from wherever they found it. But maybe it's just me. The problem is that it's not wisdom. It's nothing more than paranoid fear tactics. What's next? You going to point to "Startship Troopers" and say we should end the space progam so we don't end up in an intergalactic war with space bugs?

blacksword404 -> RE: Are the times really 'a' changin'? Prison. (8/2/2009 11:06:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 So you reject wisdom because of the source? I was under the impression that wise men took wisdom from wherever they found it. But maybe it's just me. The problem is that it's not wisdom. It's nothing more than paranoid fear tactics. What's next? You going to point to "Startship Troopers" and say we should end the space progam so we don't end up in an intergalactic war with space bugs? Sigh. You lack vision my friend.

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