RE: Define God (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 2:19:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I agree (from a spiritual perspective) - but mammals surviving where dinosaurs became extinct doesn't have anything to do with the evolution of the sight pathway, does it?

As far as science is concerned, the mammals mostly surviving was coincidence, though.


Yes, survival is random.  I cannot stand to hear Evolutionists spout on about how the eye evolved or how an organism evolved to adapt to its environment like the oranisms had a meeting and said "we would be just so much cooler than the other orgaisms if we had an eye" and someone suggested hell let's grow two eyes!  There are successful mutations and unsuccesful ones.  The giraffe did not grow a long neck cuz it likes the leaves on the treetops, it eats the leaves because it has a long neck and there isn't any competion for that food source.  It lives in an area that suits its mutation and where the mutation is successful, it did not mutate to fit the environment it found itself in.  Damn Evoltionists can be as fucked up as the religions nuts, in my observation.


rofl. A true blue denier!



NihilusZero -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 4:07:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

The giraffe did not grow a long neck cuz it likes the leaves on the treetops, it eats the leaves because it has a long neck and there isn't any competion for that food source.

Actually, the males developed those sturdier necks to win over the mate when necking (giraffe-fighting), and the genes got passed on in that manner.



intenze -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 4:17:43 PM)

[sm=banghead.gif] fast reply only...y'all need to study evolution.



Rule -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 5:04:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
The giraffe did not grow a long neck cuz it likes the leaves on the treetops, it eats the leaves because it has a long neck and there isn't any competion for that food source.

Actually, the males developed those sturdier necks to win over the mate when necking (giraffe-fighting), and the genes got passed on in that manner.

You are both wrong. The animals on the African plains, including our ancestors, evolved because of one new and utterly cruel condition: heat! Without the shade provided by the trees that disappeared when the Great Rift Valley started to form, all animals in the area east of the Rift were exposed to the implacable tropical sun. It caused our ancestors to stand up, to evolve thin, short body hairs, to evolve curly hair on their skulls, to sweat, to evolve ever larger and ever deeper grooved brains. It also selected against giraffes with short necks: the shorter their necks, the earlier their brains boiled. It is HOT near the ground. The higher above the ground, the less hot it gets. (Presumably the long necks of some dinosaurs evolved for the same reason.)



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 5:26:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
The giraffe did not grow a long neck cuz it likes the leaves on the treetops, it eats the leaves because it has a long neck and there isn't any competion for that food source.

Actually, the males developed those sturdier necks to win over the mate when necking (giraffe-fighting), and the genes got passed on in that manner.

You are both wrong. The animals on the African plains, including our ancestors, evolved because of one new and utterly cruel condition: heat! Without the shade provided by the trees that disappeared when the Great Rift Valley started to form, all animals in the area east of the Rift were exposed to the implacable tropical sun. It caused our ancestors to stand up, to evolve thin, short body hairs, to evolve curly hair on their skulls, to sweat, to evolve ever larger and ever deeper grooved brains. It also selected against giraffes with short necks: the shorter their necks, the earlier their brains boiled. It is HOT near the ground. The higher above the ground, the less hot it gets. (Presumably the long necks of some dinosaurs evolved for the same reason.)




Sorry, not buying that one. In moist air as in the tropics the lapse rate (change in temperature for an increase in altitude) is about 1-2 degrees centigrade per thousand feet. Assuming a linear decrease its 3 hundreths of a degree at 20 feet. (Its probably less than linear because the closer to the ground the larger the effect of the earth's heat radiation, which I assume would follow an inverse square kind of rule.) that kind of change wouldnt do jack for "brain boiling" heat.



Rule -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 5:35:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
In moist air as in the tropics the lapse rate (change in temperature for an increase in altitude) is about 1-2 degrees centigrade per thousand feet. Assuming a linear decrease its 3 hundreths of a degree at 20 feet. (Its probably less than linear because the closer to the ground the larger the effect of the earth's heat radiation, which I assume would follow an inverse square kind of rule.) that kind of change wouldnt do jack for "brain boiling" heat.

That is sufficient for natural selection to take hold and cause evolution at an ever increasing - exponential - rate.

Also, wind velocity increases with height. Thus the higher in the air the giraffe head, the better the air-cooling functions.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 5:37:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
In moist air as in the tropics the lapse rate (change in temperature for an increase in altitude) is about 1-2 degrees centigrade per thousand feet. Assuming a linear decrease its 3 hundreths of a degree at 20 feet. (Its probably less than linear because the closer to the ground the larger the effect of the earth's heat radiation, which I assume would follow an inverse square kind of rule.) that kind of change wouldnt do jack for "brain boiling" heat.

That is sufficient for natural selection to take hold and cause evolution at an ever increasing - exponential - rate.



Not at less than 3 hundreths of a degree difference AT BEST for a giraffe, less for a primate.



Rule -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 5:43:24 PM)

Show me a temperature graph of the first ten metres above the African plain.

As for our ancestor, it is simply the ratio of two dimensional, horizontal surface exposed to the sun versus total body (and brain) volume. (That might also apply to the neck of a giraffe? Yes.)



NihilusZero -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 6:03:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

You are both wrong. The animals on the African plains, including our ancestors, evolved because of one new and utterly cruel condition: heat! Without the shade provided by the trees that disappeared when the Great Rift Valley started to form, all animals in the area east of the Rift were exposed to the implacable tropical sun. It caused our ancestors to stand up, to evolve thin, short body hairs, to evolve curly hair on their skulls, to sweat, to evolve ever larger and ever deeper grooved brains. It also selected against giraffes with short necks: the shorter their necks, the earlier their brains boiled. It is HOT near the ground. The higher above the ground, the less hot it gets. (Presumably the long necks of some dinosaurs evolved for the same reason.)


I really don't want to deviate into a side topic...but aside from the fact that I've seen little to no support for this as a major factor in the evolution of giraffe necks, what physiological weakness do giraffes have that the remainder of the savanna creatures don't (leading to not having hyenas with stilts for legs or lions that shave their manes to cool off)?





NihilusZero -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 6:05:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

That is sufficient for natural selection to take hold and cause evolution at an ever increasing - exponential - rate.

And also the reason that the zebras went extinc...wait...



Rule -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 6:30:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
what physiological weakness do giraffes have that the remainder of the savanna creatures don't (leading to not having hyenas with stilts for legs or lions that shave their manes to cool off)?

Giraffes are active during the day. Lions and hyena hunt mostly during the night.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 6:41:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Show me a temperature graph of the first ten metres above the African plain.

As for our ancestor, it is simply the ratio of two dimensional, horizontal surface exposed to the sun versus total body (and brain) volume. (That might also apply to the neck of a giraffe? Yes.)



Dont need a graph.

"The rapidity with which temperature decreases with altitude. The normal lapse rate is defined to be 3.6 degrees F per 1000 feet change in altitude. The dry adiabatic lapse rate is about 5.5 degrees F per 1000 feet, and the wet adiabatic lapse rate varies between 2 and 5 degrees F per 1000 feet."

Again, since the closer to the "heat sink" of earth, the hotter its likely to be, very little of the 2-5 degree/1000 wet lapse rate will be closer to the earth. Even giving it a linear change though means that at most 1 tenth of a degree change from ground to giraffe top.



Rule -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 6:48:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
And also the reason that the zebras went extinc...wait...

I quote: "[Zebra] Brain temperature consistently exceeded blood temperature, on average by 0.2-0.4°C"

Zebra apparently transfer heat from their brain to their larger blood volume, I conclude. If so, I would expect them to evolve smaller brains, or larger bodies. (I have no idea if that reflects reality.)

I am now starting to wonder about the function of zebra stripes. It has always been assumed that its sole purpose is camouflage from predators, yet zebra are the only animals that camouflage themselves this way.

Can it be that the predominant function of the stripes is to cool the zebra? White areas reflect light and are relatively cold. Black areas absorb light and are very hot. Air will be heated by the black areas and rise. Cold air will fall down on the white areas, and be sucked onto the adjacent black areas, cooling them and then rising again. Thus the body of the zebra is cooled by circulating air. Neat. Paint zebra all white or all black and their brain will boil.

Eureka! [sm=givemebeer.gif]



Rule -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 6:59:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Dont need a graph.

"The rapidity with which temperature decreases with altitude. The normal lapse rate is defined to be 3.6 degrees F per 1000 feet change in altitude. The dry adiabatic lapse rate is about 5.5 degrees F per 1000 feet, and the wet adiabatic lapse rate varies between 2 and 5 degrees F per 1000 feet."

Again, since the closer to the "heat sink" of earth, the hotter its likely to be, very little of the 2-5 degree/1000 wet lapse rate will be closer to the earth. Even giving it a linear change though means that at most 1 tenth of a degree change from ground to giraffe top.

We may be looking at it from different perspectives. You are looking at the lapse rate. I will give you that. I am not interested in what happens at 1000 feet.

I am interested in what happens in the first ten metres of height. You say that the closer to the ground at these slight heights, the exponentially hotter it will be due to radiative heat. From the perspective of evolution biology that means that there is a selective pressure for an animal like the ancestor of the giraffe to lengthen its neck, as that is exponentially rewarded. From the point of view of natural selection it does not matter what the temperature difference is, merely that it is inversely exponentially correlated with height.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 7:11:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
And also the reason that the zebras went extinc...wait...

I quote: "[Zebra] Brain temperature consistently exceeded blood temperature, on average by 0.2-0.4°C"

Zebra apparently transfer heat from their brain to their larger blood volume, I conclude. If so, I would expect them to evolve smaller brains, or larger bodies. (I have no idea is that reflects reality.)

I am now starting to wonder about the function of zebra stripes. It has always been assumed that its sole purpose is camouflage from predators, yet zebra are the only animals that camouflage themselves this way.

Can it be that the predominant function of the stripes is to cool the zebra? White areas reflect light and are relatively cold. Black areas absorb light and are very hot. Air will be heated by the black areas and rise. Cold air will fall down on the white areas, and be sucked onto the adjacent black areas, cooling them and then rising again. Thus the body of the zebra is cooled by circulating air. Neat. Paint zebra all white or all black and their brain will boil.

Eureka! [sm=givemebeer.gif]


The difference in brain vs body temperature has nothing to do with height which was why you claimed giraffe necks and upright walking evovled. Brain tissue metabolism creates more heat, and while selective brain cooling in other animals solves that problem, Zebras dont have a carotid rete to accomplish it. The primary reason why is because, at least in Zebras and other equids brain tissue is no more sensitive to heat than other tissue, and they employ other methods for cooling during hypothermia.

The idea of stripes for thermal control is nothing new, but it isnt due to any heat exchange mechanism that you theorize. The theory biologists maintain is related to the heat capacity of fat, and the stripes vary with the fat content underneath the skin,



pyroaquatic -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 7:15:14 PM)

So what does this have to do with the definition of God?



Brain -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 7:28:52 PM)

Sam Harris answers What is religion?
Sam Harris Religion is a failed science


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkTTCgECCoc



Rule -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 7:41:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
The difference in brain vs body temperature has nothing to do with height which was why you claimed giraffe necks and upright walking evovled.

I didn't say anything about our ancestors walking upright because of the advantage of height correlated with temperature (though I do think it is a factor, but of relatively minor importance). I quote from my post 444: "the implacable tropical sun. It caused our ancestors to stand up, to evolve thin, short body hairs, to evolve curly hair on their skulls, to sweat, to evolve ever larger and ever deeper grooved brains".

In the same post I do assert that the evolution of the giraffe's long necks (and implicitly their long legs) was height correlated. (Notice the slender giraffe legs near the scorching ground.) I maintain that position. However, knowing about the power of natural selection on the ratio to the sun exposed body area and body volume in causing our ancestors to assume an upright position and its influence on the evolution of the brain, I wondered if the same might apply to the giraffe neck. My conclusion was affirmative. I still think that height does contribute in the evolution of the giraffe and of our ancestors. However, I consider the ratio of exposed area versus body / neck volume more important. I haven't looked at giraffe lately, but I seem to have the impression that the animal is trying to assume the shape of a tall pillar.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Brain tissue metabolism creates more heat, and while selective brain cooling in other animals solves that problem, Zebras dont have a carotid rete to accomplish it. The primary reason why is because, at least in Zebras and other equids brain tissue is no more sensitive to heat than other tissue, and they employ other methods for cooling during hypothermia.

I am sorry, but you are wrong about the sensitivity. (I also am sure that you meant hyperthermia.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
The idea of stripes for thermal control is nothing new, but it isnt due to any heat exchange mechanism that you theorize. The theory biologists maintain is related to the heat capacity of fat, and the stripes vary with the fat content underneath the skin,

I seem to faintly recall such a hypothesis. The fat content and its heat capacity no doubt is correlated, but it is not the causative mechanism. It is a consequence, not a cause.



Rule -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 7:51:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic
So what does this have to do with the definition of God?

You are quite right.

I saw the opening poster Esinn a while ago give his definition of God. I retrieved it and quote: "I agree 100% god does not exist outside of our thoughts".

In some sense this is true. Lots of people have such an inner God. I have been thinking about that and somewhere about ten years ago I concluded that such people referred in this way to their superego. It so happens that various types of people have no superego - so they lack this inner god. Such god-less people therefore would be wise to rely on an external such god: i.e. to consult someone who does not have this functional disability.



Brain -> RE: Define God (8/6/2009 7:55:22 PM)

WATCH SESSION 1

Steven Weinberg, Lawrence Krauss, Sam Harris, Michael Shermer

Beyond Belief: Science, Reason, Religion & Survival
Salk Institute for Biological Studies
10 partsNovember 5 - 7, 2006

http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/beyond-belief-science-religion-reason-and-survival/session-10-1

Session 1
Steven Weinberg, Lawrence Krauss, Sam Harris, Michael Shermer
November 5, 2006
Videos
About
Participants
Reading
The Conversation Continues

 Session 1
Steven Weinberg, Lawrence Krauss, Sam Harris, Michael Shermer
November 5, 2006


 Session 2
Neil deGrasse Tyson; Discussion: Tyson, Weinberg, Krauss, Harris, Shermer
November 5, 2006


 Session 3
Joan Roughgarden, Richard Dawkins, Francisco Ayala, Carolyn Porco
November 5, 2006


 Session 4
Stuart Hameroff, VS Ramachandran
November 5, 2006


 Session 5
Paul Davies, Steven Nadler, Patricia Churchland
November 6, 2006


 Session 6
Susan Neiman, Loyal Rue, Elizabeth Loftus
November 6, 2006


 Session 7
Mahzarin Banaji, Richard Dawkins, Scott Atran
November 6, 2006


 Session 8
Scott Atran, Sir Harold Kroto, Charles Harper, Ann Druyan
November 6, 2006


 Session 9
Sam Harris; Jim Woodward; Melvin Konner; Discussion: Harris, Woodward, Konner, Dawkins, Paul Churchland
November 7, 2006


 Session 10
Richard Sloan, VS Ramachandran, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Terrence Sejnowski
November 7, 2006






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