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RE: Define God - 8/6/2009 8:17:13 PM   
pyroaquatic


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Joined: 12/4/2006
From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline 		Ah.

The brain is a delusion generator.

Words-despite how effective they are appear to be-cannot explain everything. Considering we have not even begun to explore the universe let alone physically interact with it..... what assumptions can we make based on the data that we currently have little of?

We spend energy attempting to learn and research. For every question answered there are ten or more questions that pop out.

Sometimes the dust must settle in a wordless but simple understanding. And then...

"Oh, there you are!"

I believe in science. I believe in the spirit. I care very little for the Logos of mankind for we are all deluded. This so called 'God' does not speak in words and cares very little for time, which is a human constraint. A rock is as equal in the equation as me, as I have said before. I am a blink relative to the perception of 'God'.

Higher Power. Whatever. The Force. Super-Ego. Introspection.

What would the standard perception of God appear to be 1, 10, 1000, 10000, 100000 years from the future?

*shrugs*

We can argue why this particular has stripes and why giraffes have such long necks. Evolution is not an definite answer. It is a means to an end.
The Evolution of Cars, Computers, Silverware.... these have no life in them. They rely on us to evolve them. Ideas (memes) evolve. Every day I wake up some insubstantial part of my psyche mutates and changes. The Spirit of humanity has come a long way from whatever the hell it was even ten years ego. It has evolved.

I am a Whole, yet I am Part of a Whole. And that Whole is a Part of another Whole.

I may be digressing at this point. Is it past my bedtime yet?

Tear it up folks.






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RE: Define God - 8/6/2009 8:19:37 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: whippedboy678
There is a lot of, "smut, ignorance, bullshit, hate, pious fraud" etc but the Bible does not promote that activity.


I'm not so sure about that, sounds like your required to murder us just for having this conversation with you.

Deuteronomy 13:13-16

you hear that in one of the towns, there are men who are telling people to go and worship other gods, it is your duty to look into the matter and examine it. If it is proved and confirmed, you must put the inhabitants of that town to the sword.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 8/6/2009 8:27:44 PM >

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RE: Define God - 8/6/2009 8:37:26 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lynk09

I don't mean to nitpick but thats not the argument. The argument is that the Darwinian mechanism is insufficient to explain everything about life and how it evolved. Behe (and I) accept evolution though. We are just questioning the mechanism as the end all be all.


I don't mean to nitpick but that's not the argument either, your supposed to be defining God.

I'll get the ball rolling: If your talking about Yahweh  he’s a mythical figure who despite his supposed omnipotence is a failure in his endeavors, despite his supposed omniscience is pretty simple minded and despite his alleged infinite love is a jealous psychopathic mass murderer.


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RE: Define God - 8/6/2009 8:39:09 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
13:16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

That bolded part sure sounds like a trail to me.

The other, as far as i know, was acceptable punishment, and still is in some countries there.

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RE: Define God - 8/6/2009 11:50:34 PM   
whippedboy678


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: whippedboy678
There is a lot of, "smut, ignorance, bullshit, hate, pious fraud" etc but the Bible does not promote that activity.


I'm not so sure about that, sounds like your required to murder us just for having this conversation with you.

Deuteronomy 13:13-16

you hear that in one of the towns, there are men who are telling people to go and worship other gods, it is your duty to look into the matter and examine it. If it is proved and confirmed, you must put the inhabitants of that town to the sword.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.



Great job taking out one line. But thanks for making my point for me. In the first quote, worshipping other gods IS the sin. By doing so, one will suffer the consequences of THAT sin. Duh. Too bad you only took out one line of my post otherwise I would take the time to explain. But it appears you're not interested in that. And why should I have to murder you? I don't give a shit about this. Or you for that matter. Wouldn't dream of sharing what I think God is or is not. I'm not here for confession or to witness. See, I guess you assumed I was religious (or something.) When you assume, you make an ass out of you. And, in this case, not me.

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RE: Define God - 8/6/2009 11:52:14 PM   
whippedboy678


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: lynk09

I don't mean to nitpick but thats not the argument. The argument is that the Darwinian mechanism is insufficient to explain everything about life and how it evolved. Behe (and I) accept evolution though. We are just questioning the mechanism as the end all be all.


I don't mean to nitpick but that's not the argument either, your supposed to be defining God.

I'll get the ball rolling: If your talking about Yahweh  he’s a mythical figure who despite his supposed omnipotence is a failure in his endeavors, despite his supposed omniscience is pretty simple minded and despite his alleged infinite love is a jealous psychopathic mass murderer.





Also, it's "YOU'RE"! Not "your". Damn.

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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 4:12:24 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I agree (from a spiritual perspective) - but mammals surviving where dinosaurs became extinct doesn't have anything to do with the evolution of the sight pathway, does it?

As far as science is concerned, the mammals mostly surviving was coincidence, though.


Yes, survival is random.  I cannot stand to hear Evolutionists spout on about how the eye evolved or how an organism evolved to adapt to its environment like the oranisms had a meeting and said "we would be just so much cooler than the other orgaisms if we had an eye" and someone suggested hell let's grow two eyes!  There are successful mutations and unsuccesful ones.  The giraffe did not grow a long neck cuz it likes the leaves on the treetops, it eats the leaves because it has a long neck and there isn't any competion for that food source.  It lives in an area that suits its mutation and where the mutation is successful, it did not mutate to fit the environment it found itself in.  Damn Evoltionists can be as fucked up as the religions nuts, in my observation.


rofl. A true blue denier!


And a comment that proves my hypothesis that there are fanatics on both sides of the issue.   I deny nothing.  I see the truth of survival of the fittest but maintain that survival of a species is random in that an organism cannot decide to mutate, or which cells or functions will mutate or whether or not that mutation will be successful.

It would seem to me that it is a disadvantage for humans to have lost their fur, but we did.  It seems advantagous to have a tail like monkeys that can be used to grasp, especially when I have to haul armloads of groceries, but my wanting such a mutation will not make it happen.

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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 4:18:45 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

The giraffe did not grow a long neck cuz it likes the leaves on the treetops, it eats the leaves because it has a long neck and there isn't any competion for that food source.

Actually, the males developed those sturdier necks to win over the mate when necking (giraffe-fighting), and the genes got passed on in that manner.



However, do you know the rutting rituals of the giraffe prior to the devolpment of the longer neck?  Giraffes have horns and it seems more plausible that in pre-historic times that the horns were used in the manner of other hooved mammals in the rut.  Do you know for a fact that the neck was used in the rut so as to prove your assertion?  It seems more plausible that the lack of food competition was a better survival advantage than rutting rituals.  The giraffe also has taller forelegs than hind legs and I'm not sure but I don't think that mutation helped the mating rituals but rather also helped reach a food source for which the animal had little or no competition.

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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 7:56:33 AM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

So what does this have to do with the definition of God?


I am not sure any of these rants have anything to do with defining god.  It seems like all things which exist only in the mind of the individual are difficult to define.


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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 8:00:39 AM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

God is that personal source of inner strength, courage, inspiration, immagination, and will that seems to spring from nowhere at those times when we really need it.  As such it is personal and indefinable to others.  God is god on a strictly personal level, as definable as thought itself.

My god is my god and cannot be anyone else's god.  God is a form of energy that we know exists but have not yet given any specific scientific name to.  Physicists are aware of this energy and have not defined it.  Some people may have given it the term 'god'. 

God's existance is so hotly debated because god exists personally not universally.  My thoughts cannot be your thoughts therefore my thoughts do not exist universally but universally we can agree that thoughts themselves are real.  As real as my thoughts are (but so pooly expressed) they can never be yours.  Your thoughts can never be mine.  Is that such a bad thing?

I find it most interesting that according to Moses "god" indentified him(its)self simply as "I Exist".  One can either accept that or not and it changes nothing.


This is another outstanding definition of god.  This thing we call god exists in our mind.  We experience it subjective and personally as we would expect with any creation which existed in our mind.  Except through the power of the person infected with these thoughts, faith or beliefs god is absolutely unable to act upon the world.

Thanks!

**Oddly though you call upon a belief system of Jews.  This clearly identifies god as an absolute thing.  I do not think this is relevant just something I wanted to point out.

**Another spooky thing you implied that thoughts seem to exist outside the mind?  Should I get the twilight zone music?

quote:

My thoughts cannot be your thoughts therefore my thoughts do not exist universally but universally we can agree that thoughts themselves are real


Or am I just misunderstanding?  Anyhow - thanks.  I agree 100% god does not exist outside of our thoughts.



Science absolutely proves the existance of thoughts, brain activity can be observed but the thoughts themselves cannot be read.  Without thought, there is no action.  How do we create anything, do anything, improve anything, help anything, enrich anything, without the thought to do so?  So we take our thoughts and put them into action so that our thoughts can exist outside ourselves.

What I don't understand is, how can my god as I know it have any effect on your life?  Bad people can use anything to justify their evil deeds whether they wage war in the name of religion or patriotism or a talking dog, it's not the country, the dog, or the god that is evil.  How will your life be enriched should I suddenly say "Why you are soooooooo right and I now will convert to atheism!"  Atheism has become as much a religion as any other.  I reject religion because of it.  I do not reject my spiritual beliefs and I do not thrust them upon others.  My god is mine alone and cannot be anyone else's.


Yes, I agree.

god is whatever your thoughts make it. 

Thank you.


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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 8:05:38 AM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The Bible is a beautifully written story... and its just that. Designed to give a moral compass.


This is true if you ignore the smut, ignorance, bullshit, hate, pious fraud, racism, sex, violence, rape, murder, torture, immoral actions, fear mongering, flawed concepts, dumb ideas, slavery, contradictions. . .

I bet if we ignored all that in Mein Kampf Hitler has some gems of wisdom too.



Some of my most favorite fiction has those elements... lol... sex, smut, ignorance, bullshit, racism, violence, rape, torture, immoral actions, fear mongering, flawed concepts, dumb ideas, slavery, contradictions? look at what site you are on... the only thing we dont have on these boards is murder... lol.. unless you include murdering the english language. oh, and the pious fraud... not sure about that one. but Master said you forgot to include junk food... i think he is hungry


lol



Edit:

Those things we might like if done willingly when done in the biblical context are of no moral value.

Again there could be moral gems found in the work of Hitler.  His paintings are quite inspiring.  But, to suggest looking to his works as a moral compass is as absurd as looking to the god of the bible.

If you want to discuss pious fraud in the bible I do not think there is a debate amongst modern scholarship it exists.  Start a new thread let's do it.


< Message edited by Esinn -- 8/7/2009 8:08:49 AM >

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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 8:10:33 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:


I didn't say anything about our ancestors walking upright because of the advantage of height correlated with temperature (though I do think it is a factor, but of relatively minor importance).


I quote from my post 444: "the implacable tropical sun. It caused our ancestors to stand up, to evolve thin, short body hairs, to evolve curly hair on their skulls, to sweat, to evolve ever larger and ever deeper grooved brains".




ROFL what does the bold mean then?

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 8/7/2009 8:11:39 AM >

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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 8:13:57 AM   
MstrPBK


Posts: 573
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Status: offline 		Technically if one considers the existence of God - then one must consider ALL things. Even the unrelated rants that seem not to be related. Since all things CAME from God.

Personally I view God as a duality:

1) as a unseen mathematical equation which guides all motions of life.
2) as a force of both Good and Bad (note I did not say evil).

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA


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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 8:17:47 AM   
juliethomas


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< Message edited by juliethomas -- 8/7/2009 8:18:27 AM >

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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 8:20:24 AM   
juliethomas


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quote:


Yes, I did. Irreducible complexity is just the "improbability of random events producing such and such" argument. It is the blind watchmaker redux, with some incorrect probability theory thrown in to make it sound scientific.


quote:


Yes, I did. Irreducible complexity is just the "improbability of random events producing such and such" argument. It is the blind watchmaker redux, with some incorrect probability theory thrown in to make it sound scientific.


You absolutely did not. Where's the quote where Behe says that the eye is irreducibly complex? You said it was on page 29, but when I looked it was nowhere to be found.

You yourself provided a quote which states that Behe accepts that the eye organ evolved, but thinks the underlying biochemistry did not.

So I ask again, as a matter of fact, I'll make it even easier for you. Provide a quote where Behe uses any organ as an example of irreducible complexity. I won't hold my breath.

Also you are quite wrong regarding the definition of  irreducible complexity, he defines it as "A single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function of the system, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning". Thats it, it's the consequence of that definition that should be applied to evolutionary pathways.

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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 8:21:04 AM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Sam Harris answers What is religion?
Sam Harris Religion is a failed science


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkTTCgECCoc



You need to throw in some of your own relevant musings with your links.

Don't get me wrong I dig the links.  I might more often than not be a smidgen too verbose.  However, possibly you ought to be a little more verbose on occasions such as these?.


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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 8:24:56 AM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK

Technically if one considers the existence of God - then one must consider ALL things. Even the unrelated rants that seem not to be related. Since all things CAME from God.

Personally I view God as a duality:

1) as a unseen mathematical equation which guides all motions of life.
2) as a force of both Good and Bad (note I did not say evil).

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA




unseen mathematical equation - holy linguistic contortionistic contradictions batman!

The unthinking thinker thinks at least it thinks it does.  This gets me thinking.




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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 8:26:58 AM   
lynk09


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quote:


Buddhism, Christianity, Deism, Falun Gong, Hinduism, Islam and Wicca all have claims to be the fastest growing religion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion


My point wasn't that Christianity is the fastest growing religion today , but that it was essentially an overnight sensation in the 1st century, due to the ressurrection.

< Message edited by lynk09 -- 8/7/2009 8:27:41 AM >

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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 9:10:37 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		OK.  my definition of god would be:

A dog licking peanut butter style blowjob with full head-on swallow (from a reasonably useful girl).

I feel enraptured when getting one.  For some time after I ain't mad at ANYBODY no more. Every dudes my brother and every chicks my sister, as it were.

It is selfless, it is love---------I can feel the love.

So......

god = blowjob.

Ron 

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/7/2009 9:13:07 AM >

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RE: Define God - 8/7/2009 9:16:44 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

OK.  my definition of god would be:

A dog licking peanut butter style blowjob with full head-on swallow (from a reasonably useful girl).

I feel enraptured when getting one.  For some time after I ain't mad at ANYBODY no more. Every dudes my brother and every chicks my sister, as it were.

It is selfless, it is love---------I can feel the love.

So......

god = blowjob.

Ron 



Salvation for $100?

Link NSFW!

http://www.roboticblowjob.com/index.php?page=buy

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