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Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/8/2009 9:00:34 PM

TheHeretic

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Interesting bit of analysis coming from The Nation about the health care plan, and how the process is being conducted:

The Cheney-Like Secrecy of the Obama White House

I should point out that I disagree with one of the key points of their take. I think this administration could wind up being FAR more corrupt than the last.

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/8/2009 9:13:28 PM

Arpig

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I love this line...

quote:

However, bad-but-not-quite-Cheney-bad is an unacceptable standard.

And as to the point of the OP, well I agree with the author, this sort of secrecy may help get things done,but it isn't what he promised. Back during the primaries, I ran into my brother on the bus, and we decided to have a beer or two and catch up. He asked me what I thought of Obama, and my reply was: "He gives a really good speech". Its beginning to look like that is all it was, pretty words, with no real substance behind it. Sad.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 8/8/2009 9:17:15 PM >

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/8/2009 9:23:58 PM

Sanity

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Why stop with visitor logs?

Why not have publicly accessible webcams fed live to the Internet monitoring every inch of the White House 24/7/365, complete with sound.

Or is that just as crazy as the visitor log idea?

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Interesting bit of analysis coming from The Nation about the health care plan, and how the process is being conducted:

The Cheney-Like Secrecy of the Obama White House

I should point out that I disagree with one of the key points of their take. I think this administration could wind up being FAR more corrupt than the last.

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Post #: 3

RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/8/2009 9:29:18 PM

TheHeretic

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It seems like there was a campaign promise about this sort of thing, doesn't there? Maybe made about the same time he was going to use public financing for the campaign?

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/8/2009 9:42:03 PM

Sanity

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I was against publicizing White House visitors logs then, and I'm against it now.

And it's undeniable, anyone with half a mind knows now that Obama's words ring hollow. But still, you have a point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It seems like there was a campaign promise about this sort of thing, doesn't there? Maybe made about the same time he was going to use public financing for the campaign?

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/8/2009 10:21:16 PM

DomKen

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I've got to say that this visitor log stuff seems to fall well within the spirit of executive privilege, whether it's Cheney and the energy plan or Obama and health care. Let the executive branch get what ever outside advice it desires. It isn't who helped write what plan that we should be concerned with but the content of the plans themselves.

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/8/2009 10:27:54 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

Barack Obama promised when he sought the presidency to usher in a new era of openness and transparency. "We'll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies," candidate Obama declared at a Pennsylvania campaign stop two months before the 2008 election.

Now, he is doing the opposite.

Isn't this the perfect example of hyprocrisy?

Firm

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/8/2009 10:48:55 PM

ElectraGlide

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While Obama was trying to get elected he was Mr. Union. he was talking of walkiing a picket line, then he gets elected he tells the UAW they better take a cut in pay. So while all this crap is taking place the big 3 is unfolding, they close plants and a bunch of people are out of work after several plant closings. How does the rest of the U.S. feel, I know a few persons in Delaware that worked at G.M. and Chrysler that have not have health benefits for the first time in over 20 years.

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/9/2009 10:18:47 AM

Sanity

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McCain warned us that Obama was naive, and maybe that's it more than anything. It could be that candidate Obama really meant to do all those things, but then he was confronted by the real world (and his advisers) and things changed.

"Naive" was a very polite word choice on McCain's part, in my opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

Barack Obama promised when he sought the presidency to usher in a new era of openness and transparency. "We'll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies," candidate Obama declared at a Pennsylvania campaign stop two months before the 2008 election.

Now, he is doing the opposite.

Isn't this the perfect example of hyprocrisy?

Firm

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/9/2009 10:29:08 AM

Sanity

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Regarding all the secrecy of the bills which can't be read or debated before they're passed, and him sending in his union goons to bust heads if people start asking questions, vs. his total openness pledge, yes it's astounding hypocrisy.

But again, it may not be hypocrisy that's the issue, it could be mental competency that's at the heart of the matter, instead.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/9/2009 10:31:36 AM >

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/9/2009 10:31:34 AM

Musicmystery

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People are quick to jump on the political side they prefer at every turn, Rich, but this was my problem with the Cheney secrecy--

That executive branch power becomes power in the hands of every president from now on.

And I don't like the idea of handing new power to people I don't know in situations that don't exist yet.

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/9/2009 10:35:36 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

McCain warned us that Obama was naive, and maybe that's it more than anything. It could be that candidate Obama really meant to do all those things, but then he was confronted by the real world (and his advisers) and things changed.

That is where I have to wonder about just how far things will slide. Cheney, after all, had a lifetime of experience with running things. Once President Obama starts down the slippery slopes, and he is clearly on them, who knows how far things will slide. What does he know of the limitations of power?

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Post #: 12

RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/9/2009 10:37:41 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Cheney, after all, had a lifetime of experience with running things. Once President Obama starts down the slippery slopes, and he is clearly on them, who knows how far things will slide. What does he know of the limitations of power?

For that matter, what did Cheney, short of recreating the Nixon era as best he could?

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/9/2009 10:43:19 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Regarding all the secrecy of the bills which can't be read or debated before they're passed....

Which bills are those?

You mean the health reform proposals?

There are numerous links online to read to your heart's content?

Any others that you can name?

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Post #: 14

RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/9/2009 10:54:33 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

For that matter, what did Cheney, short of recreating the Nixon era as best he could?

Cheney understood the importance of not getting caught, while Obama only seems to grasp getting away with it anyway.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 15

RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/9/2009 10:55:34 AM

Sanity

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He wanted it passed already, remember? Prior to the August recess, and prior to anyone reading or debating it. Further, this is becoming a familiar pattern with Obama now.

Remember how we were all gonna die if his porkulus didn't pass immediately?

I can post article on that too, if you need me to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Regarding all the secrecy of the bills which can't be read or debated before they're passed....

Which bills are those?

You mean the health reform proposals?

There are numerous links online to read to your heart's content?

Any others that you can name?

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/9/2009 11:01:38 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

He wanted it passed already, remember? Prior to the August recess, and prior to anyone reading or debating it. Further, this is becoming a familiar pattern with Obama now.

Remember how we were all gonna die if his porkulus didn't pass immediately?

I can post article on that too, if you need me to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Regarding all the secrecy of the bills which can't be read or debated before they're passed....

Which bills are those?

You mean the health reform proposals?

There are numerous links online to read to your heart's content?

Any others that you can name?

Which doesn't address your claim to the secrecy of the bill.

It has never been secret, though some portions are undecided.

And also does not address the other bills you claim are being passed in secrecy.

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Post #: 17

RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/9/2009 11:07:45 AM

Sanity

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Well then why does it have to be rushed through.

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RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/9/2009 11:25:33 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Well then why does it have to be rushed through.

Ah, well now we're changing the subject. Rushing it through has nothing to do with secrecy.

But, in answer to your question, for the same reason Bush rushed through the bank bailout.

If the President doesn't keep pressure on Congress the lobbying and political gamesmanship will result in nothing ever getting done.

Especially on a controversial bill that will alienate half their constituents no matter how they vote, and with an election year coming.

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Post #: 19

RE: Transparency or secrecy??? - 8/9/2009 11:57:15 AM

Sanity

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No, I'm not changing the subject. The speed that Obama is demanding on these bills is turning a lot of Democrats off.

Especially because Obama campaigned on "openness" etc., and now everyone is seeing the exact opposite from his administration, to the extreme.

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