RE: Minimium Wage Rant (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/9/2009 7:26:54 PM)

never heard of monopolies, huh




servantforuse -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/9/2009 7:28:23 PM)

Never heard of anti trust laws, huh.




tazzygirl -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/9/2009 7:32:04 PM)

would be quite hard to prove that businesses got together and decided among themselves to offer only so much, and no more, to keep competition, and wages, down




servantforuse -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/9/2009 7:34:52 PM)

That is illegal. Has it been done. Of course, but there is a price to pay when you are caught price fixing. Can you name a monolopy in this country ? 




MissJanice2 -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/9/2009 7:43:22 PM)

Bingo!   That is where the problem exists.  Companies should be able to pay what they can pay and what they cannot to their employees.     Then the economy would straighten itself out.
 
Respectfully,
 
Mistress_Jan
 


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

There should be no minimum wage at all. If someone invests in and owns a company he should be free to pay his employees what he wants to pay them. If he doesn't pay a fair wage he won't have anyone working for him. They will go elsewhere. If he has good employees, he will pay them to keep them there.




numuncular -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/9/2009 7:46:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

can people actually live on $10 an hour?
Not really, you can survive, but that's about it.



I'd have thought that but not being in america of course it'd be impossible to say, so therefore what exactly is the point in businesses that are so poorly run (if paying over $7 is geniunely a hardship) they can only get along paying people poverty wages subsidised by the government?




tazzygirl -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/9/2009 7:49:42 PM)

Any water company, cable company, electric company, natural gas, public schools, police departments, fire departments.




stella41b -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/9/2009 8:51:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissJanice2

Bingo!   That is where the problem exists.  Companies should be able to pay what they can pay and what they cannot to their employees.     Then the economy would straighten itself out.
 
Respectfully,
 
Mistress_Jan
 




Well by that way of thinking countries such as India, Russia and Bangladesh must be economic superpowers.




Termyn8or -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/9/2009 10:41:56 PM)

FR

OK I guess I have to be blunt. If I were even in the slightest bit worried about minimum wage I would shoot myself. I make over four times that. That is because I have a skill. Get a skill. I make money, but so do nurses, physical therapists, IT professionals, and a whole slew of other people. You CAN do it.

I did it without college, nor technical training, not even a highschool diploma. You CAN do this.

The thing is, those who can screw you will. My Grampa told me "Make them pay you". I'll stick to that. Everything is what you make it, per hour I am perhaps the highest paid in the field in this state. They won't just give it to you, you have to demand it. They don't tell me how much I will be making, I tell them.

That is the opposite end of the spectrum of course. Whatever a job is worth is basically divisible by the number of people who can do it. In other words I found my niche. (basically a small divisor)

I really wish everyone could do that, and ride this country back up to it previous glory in technology, but again reality is upon us. People sit their kids in front of the TV and go about their business. They leave them in daycare to learn from their peers, what ONE YEAR OLD ? Bullshit, they need interaction with adults. And the two income family has become the norm in this country. There is only so much time in one day. So now we got what we got.

Here's what we got, Telarc, the first producer of CDs in the US could not make a defect free CD to save their lives until outside help was brought in from overseas, from Sony and Phillips. (MM take note of that if you wish). It was not only the workers who were flawed, but management as well. They did not understand the conception of a cleanroom. This is ten times cleaner than an operating room.

With the way things have been run, we are headed towards a communistic attitude, if not the philosophy itself. A quote from a guy in a communist country years ago "They pretend to pay us, so we pretend to work". How can you can succeed in that atmosphere ? The answer is that you can't and even Russian leaders warned the US about the path we are taking, telling us that it simply does not work. I think it was Putin, but if someone really wants to call me on this I am sure I can find some references.

The fact is that a Man needs to be afforded the ability to succeed as well as exceed if he is to do so. Some socialistic and even communistic tendencies are on their way, and this is inevitable in a society such as this. However, they don't do it right. In my view, if the feds take up the responsibility to educate, it should not cost their Parents their house. It should not be the rich v the poor. Without the money influence you know how easy it would be to get into Harvard ? It is really not that good of a school, it is just where political affiliations are borne. Real learning happens at Case, UWM and places like that, and no matter how much money you have, you can't buy your way in nor can you buy a diploma.

I am going to stop now. I'll just finish my beer and go to bed. I might post more tonight, but this is long enough. I am VERY pissed about the way this world has been run and is being run. We could be so much more. So much more.

T




stella41b -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 5:32:57 AM)

Not sure how it is in the US, but enough Americans are telling me that there are more than a few similarities to here in the UK which taking into account differences in society and culture is probably true.

But I know how it is better here in the UK, which has a minimum wage of (I think) £5.75 an hour. But there's an army of workers, especially migrant workers, who don't even get that. I've come across hotel workers being paid as little as £3 an hour and even hospital cleaners on £2.75 an hour.

Now if the general concept of success was based on 'quality' such as quality of life, quality of work and so on, we wouldn't need a minimum wage. No sorry, I will rephrase that, if the concept of success based on 'quality' was more widespread, we wouldn't need a minimum wage.

But no, the general mindset appears to be that success involves making money or a profit at any cost, even to the detriment of other people and often involving their exploitation. If they could get away with it I'm sure many employers would hire people and forego paying them wages. And it isn't the minimum wage, but this very mindset which is causing the most damage to our economy.

It's this concept of a 'something for nothing' society where people seek the maximum profit and to gain through putting in the minimum amount of investment, money and/or time.

This is why, unlike the States and everywhere else Britain appears to lead the trend of corporate businessmen who are greedy, incompetent and not very good at business. Can anyone think of five British CEOs of really successful corporations? Maybe you can, but it won't be easy. Not least when most of our corporations were sold off anyway and no real investments in new business are happening anyway.

But the thing is there's no way round this. By exploiting one's workers and paying them as little as possible, employers are offsetting the real costs of human resources to others, in most cases the government who have to pay more out in welfare benefits longer not just for those who cannot afford to work (yes, consider that, there are people who cannot afford to work) but in supplementing the incomes of those who do take low paid jobs.

I mean in that case why bother having a free market economy at all? Why not just hand over all responsibility to the government and have communism or state capitalism?

But the thing is, when you have widespread exploitation, and no government support, almost invariably organized criminals step in and you end up with a situation just like in Russia, a country which has lost almost its entire middle class and which is largely ruled by gangs and organized criminals. Crime is one of poverty's best friends.

This way of thinking also hurts society and damages it in ways which may take years to repair and recover from. Term makes the excellent point about how exploitation is taking and keeping parents out of the home and the importance of state-sponsored education. We are already facing the issue of having more elderly people than the working population which is about to take place sometime around 2020. Cuts in education and a lack of parental presence in the home may well be a significant factor in creating a generation many of whom appear to be unemployable past the age of 30 through not having the necessary skills, education or social skills.

It's actually a sad state of affairs that any government has to impose a minimum wage at all, but there you have it, we have created a society of people who expect the freedom, the rights, the privileges and the wealth but who are not prepared to face up to the responsibilities, the actual costs and who appear to have little interest in investment in the future.

I'm not sure exactly what or who Term was referring to, but I'm inclined to assume that it was in reference to Mikhail Gorbachev who saw back in the 1970's and 1980's that the writing was on the wall and who did his level best to warn everybody about it. But no, it seems most people went for the easy option and listened too much to the opportunists like Thatcher,. Reagan, Walesa and Yeltsin.

It's no wonder then why we have a recession and our economies falling apart right across the Western world and the truth is - accept it or not - that we are running out of people to exploit and we're pretty much going to lose out to those who are able to exploit people better, such as China, parts of Asia and Africa.

I'm no business or economics expert but this much I do know, that the fundamental principles of any successful business includes investment, including investment in people, and a desire to earn a stable income or a sustainable one from providing quality products and services.

And like it or not that is our only way forward - investments, investments in people so we can create a committed, quality workforce with the necessary skills and training, and we invest in education so that young people are prepared for life with adequate skills and training and in turn, we create a stable society and sustainable economic prosperity.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 10:59:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

This is not 3 years ago. Business' are not making money right now. We are in a recession. I said this was the wrong time to impliment this and burden struggling companies.


Excuse me, but I'm going to have to call BS on this -- If you do the math, this supposed "issue" is over $14 a week (the $0.70 per hour increase x the 20 hr difference between part-time and full-time). The reality is that the company needed to reduce their staff or the hours for the existing staff -before- this increase (which, BTW, has been a known entity and would have been figured into the 2009 budget as early as the end of the 2007 fiscal year!)... they used the wage increase that their employees are now just seeing (but which they've been planning for for at least 2 years IN the budget) as the -excuse-.

Now let's look at some other numbers.

I live in Houston, which is supposed to be one of the most affordable major cities in the US in which to live.

INCOME at minimum wage: $290 a week before taxes ($1160 per month before taxes)

BILLS (for -one- person, living minimally with NO cable, recreation money, etc.):

Deductions: (~10% taxes, etc., for being so poor) $116.00
Rent: 1 br OLD apartment with window AC            695.00
Electric: 700 Kwh x $0.129 per kwh                         90.00
Phone:  Vonage                                                         25.00
Gas: (most old apts here still use gas)                         30.00
Bus: ($2.50/day  x 5 days per week x 4 weeks)         50.00
Laundry: ($2.25/load x 3 loads)                                   7.00

that leaves less than $150 for every other expense that comes up... toilet tissue, sanitary supplies, toothpaste...

As you can see, this person has no funding for things like insurance, etc., if xhe plans on, oh, I don't know... EATING... so explain to me again, in small words, why requiring companies to pay a marginally living wage is BAD??? Maybe it's better in a small town somewhere that still has rent in the $300 a month range, but that isn't anyplace -I've- lived in the past 10 years. (RDU, North Carolina; Las Cruces, NM; Houston, TX)

DC






Marc2b -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 12:24:08 PM)

Why is it that in every discussion of the minimum wage, people operate on the presumption that every wage has to be a "living" wage? What's wrong with a job that merely supplements the primary income or a job that just puts a little extra spending money in a teenager's or retirees pocket? These are the jobs you help kill with every increase of the minimum wage.




Musicmystery -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 12:41:38 PM)

Just FYI, so people are discussing real dollars instead of nominal increases,
here's tazzy's table adjusted for inflation (CPI index/2008 dollars):

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Date--Min. Wage--Adjusted for Inflation
10/24/1938 $0.25 -- $3.78
10/24/1939 $0.30 -- $4.60
10/24/1945 $0.40 -- $4.74
01/25/1950 $0.75 -- $6.64
03/01/1956 $1.00 -- $7.84
09/03/1961 $1.15 -- $8.19
09/03/1963 $1.25 -- $8.70
02/01/1967 $1.40 -- $8.93
02/01/1968 $1.60 -- $9.80
05/01/1974 $2.00 -- $8.64
01/01/1975 $2.10 -- $8.31
01/01/1976 $2.30 -- $8.61
01/01/1978 $2.65 -- $8.65
01/01/1979 $2.90 -- $8.49
01/01/1980 $3.10 -- $8.00
01/01/1981 $3.35 -- $7.84
04/01/1990 $3.80 -- $6.18
04/01/1991 $4.25 -- $6.64
10/01/1996 $4.75 -- $6.46
09/01/1997 $5.15 -- $6.68
07/24/2007 $5.85 -- $6.07
07/24/2008 $6.55 -- $6.55
07/24/2009 $7.25 -- [Obviously we don't have 2009 inflation figures yet,
which would only further illustrate the point (as we clearly have inflation still).]



So, in real dollars, the newest raise is still lower than in 1956, and still only 74% of what it was in 1968.

In fact, not only has the minimum wage been steadily falling, but this increase doesn't even bring us back to 1981 levels.

So yes, not only is this rate not crippling, but it needs to go still higher just to regain lost ground.

Cry economic catastrophe if you will. But it just ain't so. In fact, $10/hr. seems entirely reasonable, at least.





CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 12:56:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Why is it that in every discussion of the minimum wage, people operate on the presumption that every wage has to be a "living" wage? What's wrong with a job that merely supplements the primary income or a job that just puts a little extra spending money in a teenager's or retirees pocket? These are the jobs you help kill with every increase of the minimum wage.


Maybe because a whole -buttload- of people have to live on these "not living" wages. I had to when I was growing up (01/01/1978 $2.65; 01/01/1979 $2.90; 01/01/1980 $3.10; 01/01/1981 $3.35 [representative]), and now my daughter and her boyfriend and her friends are trying to make a living off that 'minimum wage' -- and all the parents are whining and wondering why their kids are still having to live at home.

Now, let me ask you the concomitant question... have -you- ever had to work three jobs just to pay the rent and buy food for your family (with no luxuries)?... because I have, and it SUX!

DC




Marc2b -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 1:36:14 PM)

quote:

Maybe because a whole -buttload- of people have to live on these "not living" wages. I had to when I was growing up (01/01/1978 $2.65; 01/01/1979 $2.90; 01/01/1980 $3.10; 01/01/1981 $3.35 [representative]), and now my daughter and her boyfriend and her friends are trying to make a living off that 'minimum wage' -- and all the parents are whining and wondering why their kids are still having to live at home.

Now, let me ask you the concomitant question... have -you- ever had to work three jobs just to pay the rent and buy food for your family (with no luxuries)?... because I have, and it SUX!


Just because you and others lack the necessary skills/knowledge to earn a livable wage is no excuse to demand – through force of law – that others pay you a salary that you are not worth. Nor is it any reason to toss others out of a job. Raising the minimum wage may benefit you but it does so at the expense of others. What the hell have they ever done to you that you would fuck them over like that? Well, I’m not surprised because that’s all politics is – different groups trying to fuck over other groups for their own benefit.

As for your question, I have never had to work three jobs but I did have to work twelve hour shifts, six days a week driving a taxi. It was a very good week if I made $250.00 (and yes, that’s including tips – a rarity since 90% of our cliental were working class poor and welfare deadbeats). I met a lot of interesting people but overall it sucked. So I saved every penny I could and went to the local community college. Two years later I had a Bachelors Degree and a better paying job (but still by no means good paying) with less hours working in a group home for mentally disabled people. More savings and more college led to the job I have now doing publicity and advertising for an Art Center and its Gift shop. I’m still far from rich but am a lot more comfortable than I used to be as an unskilled worker.

Personal initiative, frugality, prudent planning and hard work may not guarantee an increase in your income but the chances are a lot better than sitting on your ass, sticking your hand out and crying for the government to rescue you.




SilverMark -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 1:39:43 PM)

If $7.25 an hour is a burden for a company perhaps the soundness of the company is in question. If $7.25 is a livable wage in any part of our country I want to know where....No offense intended but as a small business person, I cannot in good faith even offer that as an introductory wage in the Atlanta metro area and get anyone to even consider a position. 




Musicmystery -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 1:59:48 PM)

~FR~

Just to keep things in perspective, $10/hr., 40 hours/wk for 50 weeks is $20,000/yr.

Now, I'm single, live in the country, frugally, grow a lot of my own food--and I certainly couldn't live on that. Hell, I SAVE more than that each year for retirement--and I have health insurance.

It's not an outrageous wage, even for unskilled labor.

Let alone health care......or dependents.




BKSir -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 2:08:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

If $7.25 an hour is a burden for a company perhaps the soundness of the company is in question. If $7.25 is a livable wage in any part of our country I want to know where....No offense intended but as a small business person, I cannot in good faith even offer that as an introductory wage in the Atlanta metro area and get anyone to even consider a position. 


I fully agree, $7.25/hour is not a livable wage, unless you're in a tiny little town in North Dakota.  That is, at full time, 40 hours, 4 weeks, only $1160 per month.  And that's before taxes and deductions.  Knock those out of it and you're looking at only around $850ish, give or take.  I want to know where you're living where you can afford rent / mortgage, food, fuel, utilities, and insurance for $850 per month.  That takes some damned creative and talented budgeting.  That's not taking things into account like those pesky clothes, internet, and emergencies.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Minimum Wage Rant (8/10/2009 2:23:17 PM)

quote:

The reality is that the company needed to reduce their staff or the hours for the existing staff -before- this increase (which, BTW, has been a known entity and would have been figured into the 2009 budget as early as the end of the 2007 fiscal year!)... they used the wage increase that their employees are now just seeing (but which they've been planning for for at least 2 years IN the budget) as the -excuse-.

Maybe an excuse, but for businesses, it is a major influential reality. Increasing the minimum wage sets the floor for all the other associated expenses and taxes that go with it. In the example you cite, since the situation was obviously known, how many employees used that knowledge and got a job with a more secure employer? How many went to the appropriate supervisor, owner, manager and asked how they can get involved and contribute so that this know over staffing issue was address before minimum wage was raised?

As an employer, when I compile an annual budget, I assign a percentage that generates a specific amount dollars allocated to my personnel costs. Most don't consider it, but a salary is the beginning of the employee expense equation, not the end. A business doesn't just pay salary, it pays the employer's side of all the taxes associated with that minimum wage. They are, if like me, also paying out health care and other benefits such as a 401k and bonuses based upon that salary. Unconsidered by any minimum wage advocate is consideration of the increased 'Workers Compensation' premium which is based upon salary. Personally, my non-salary, non-bonus expense is 21% in addition to salary.

So yes, an increase in minimum wage may be the catalyst of a layoff because it put the business over budget. It brings employee costs to the forefront of budget meetings. Forced to pay a higher salary and higher costs the result to keep the expense at current levels can only be achieved by terminating existing employees. The increase in pay, doesn't generate increased gross income. It good economic times, there is more flexibility in the decision. In these times its a no brainer - get rid of the people and let the government who made the decision to raise the wages worry about them.

As I've pointed out many times; since taxes were raised in CA revenue is down. Fewer employees, fewer buyers of products, reduced income taxes collected. Fewer buyers of products, best case - lower sales taxes collected; worse case - businesses close. When there is no incentive to invest in business, the money stays on the sidelines. You're seeing it all over the country, you'll continue to see it. When it's considered "good news" just because a smaller percentage of people filed for unemployment this month than in the previous month there is no good news.

Make the minimum wage $100/hour. Employers will apply that number to their budget and let go employees until that budget number it hit. The only employer who doesn't seem to understand that process is the government.




tazzygirl -> RE: Minimum Wage Rant (8/10/2009 2:51:07 PM)

we are dealing with Companies who are payinng out billions in bonuses, and some want to complain about minimum wage.




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