RE: Minimum Wage Rant (Full Version)

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MmeGigs -> RE: Minimum Wage Rant (8/10/2009 7:22:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
My years as a "corporate drone" educated me to not work for one I didn't have an ownership position. I learned that the only way to be paid what you are worth is to work for yourself.


If we all work for ourselves, though, where will businesses find employees?

quote:

The "pursuit" of happiness is a Constitutional guarantee.


Not everyone defines happiness in terms of $. There was talk about his on the radio today. Apparently, money doesn't equal happy. http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2009/08/10/midday2/

quote:

Housing, food, health care, and even education aren't Constitutionally mandated. A "living wage" isn't guaranteed nor defined.


As an employer, how productive do you think your employees will be if they're worried about how they're going to put a roof over their heads? Do you think they'll be focussed on the job if they're having trouble finding enough money to feed their kids? How many days of their labor will you lose if they can't afford to see a doctor when they're sick? Do you want to have to teach your employees to read so that they can follow written instructions, or do you have time to give individual verbal instructions to each of your employees?




tazzygirl -> RE: Minimum Wage Rant (8/10/2009 7:27:36 PM)

For the state of California the current wage laws are as follows:

quote:

Q.
What is the minimum wage?


A.
Effective January 1, 2008, the minimum wage in California is $8.00 per hour.

For sheepherders, however, effective July 1, 2002, the minimum wage was set at $1,200.00 per month. Effective January 1, 2007 this wage was increased to a minimum monthly salary of $1,333.20. Effective January 1, 2008, the minimum monthly salary for sheepherders will be $1,422.52. Wages paid to sheepherders may not be offset by meals or lodging provided by the employer. Instead, there are provisions in IWC Order 14-2007, Sections 10(F), (G) and (H) that apply to sheepherders with respect to monthly meal and lodging benefits required to be provided by the employer.

Q.
May an employee agree to work for less than the minimum wage?


A.
No. The minimum wage is an obligation of the employer and cannot be waived by any agreement, including collective bargaining agreements. Any remedial legislation written for the protection of employees may not be violated by agreement between the employer and employee. Civil Code Sections 1668 and 3513


http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm




MmeGigs -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 7:35:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
When you own a business it is your job to try to make a profit, either for yourself or if a larger company for the shareholders who invest  in that company. It is not there to give assistance to lower wage earners. It is a business, not the 'make a wish' charity.


So it relies on the government to make up the difference between what it pays its workers - the folks who make the products that enable the owners and shareholders to make a profit - and what it actually costs its employees to live so that it can provide higher returns to it's owners and shareholders. Basically, letting the taxpayers subsidize the profits.




servantforuse -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 7:48:12 PM)

Now we are getting to socialism. Take money from those who earn it and distribute it to everyone else.




rulemylife -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 7:48:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

If a business owner wants to treat his employees poorly, that is up to him. If he wants t
o pay more to get quality employees that is also up to him. It's his company. 


Really?

Ok, so let's say one business owner treats his employees poorly.  By paying them below market wage he finds a cheap labor source and is then able to be more profitable than his competitors.

So, then if the employees are unhappy they can then go to work for the competition, right?

But the competing businesses see the other company being able to offer a product or service at lower prices by benefiting from decreased labor costs, so then they offer less pay as well, and you have a downward spiral of wages throughout the entire industry.

It is the reason we have labor laws and unions in the first place. 

One unscrupulous employer will start the trend and force the rest of the industry to follow suit to be able to compete.

Can you say Wal-Mart?




MmeGigs -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 7:51:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
Now we are getting to socialism. Take money from those who earn it and distribute it to everyone else.


So it's socialism to pay an employee a fair wage for the contribution they are making to your business? Someone who works for you isn't earning their money?




tazzygirl -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 7:54:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Now we are getting to socialism. Take money from those who earn it and distribute it to everyone else.


Huge flaw. employees make it possible for a business to make money. so, who is actually earning the money?




Marc2b -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 7:56:08 PM)

quote:

That's OK, Marc. I have a harsh side as well. This isn't directed at you-- I want to say that up front, as I'm about to vent a spleen that is nigh unto overflowing at this point. See, I've always considered myself to be geared towards smaller government, less intervention, and fewer intrusions onto the individual expression of existence. I've championed the Free Market, and lassaize-faire government for almost three decades, but the past several years have jaded me.


I’d be jaded too if I had expected anything remotely resembling a Free Market from the Republicans. They rigged the game in their favor, now it is the Democrats turn to rig the game in their favor. The Republicans will eventually get another turn. And the whirly-gig goes on.


quote:

Reality has finally sunk through my thick skull. After two doctoral degrees (for which I worked 3 jobs to keep myself fed, sheltered, and pay for my school with no grants or federal aid -- though I did earn 3 merit scholarships which helped pay about 1/2 of my undergraduate education),


That’s quite the accomplishment. You should be proud of yourself.

quote:

13 years as a military wife while my husband served this country, only to be brushed aside by the private sector because he wasn't trained in the 'latest technology' when he was released during the draw-down of forces, and 20 years self-employed as a midwife, paramedic, web developer, and medical writer, it only took me six years as a corporate drone to figure out that a broad swath of human beings are greedy, selfish, bitter, lazy, and foolish, and that the further up you follow the dollar, the deeper the corruption eats its way into the corporate psyche. Perhaps it is just a fact of human existence that we tend towards the "Landsman/pauper" dichotomy, even when we scream "all men are created equal" at the top of our lungs.


Okay, here’s a perfect example of what I am trying to get across. Your husband has a problem. He’s not trained in the latest technology and it hampers his job search. Companies (composed of those greedy, selfish, bitter, lazy, and foolish people – I am in complete agreement with you on the shortcomings of the human race) probably don’t hire him because they don’t want the added expense of training him, not when there are plenty of people already trained in the latest technology. What is the solution to this problem? Some people would say that the government should pay for his retraining.

Actually, in the case of the military, I wouldn’t have a problem with that. The military is a unique institution in which its members (government employees) willingly sacrifice certain rights while putting their life on the line for the rest of us. I would have no problem with the government giving a ten thousand dollar scholarship to every military personal who completes their term of service honorably, good toward any college or technical school of their choice. Risking having your head blown off deserves at least that much of a bonus. It’s the kind of stimulus plan I could get behind.

That aside, what about someone from the private sector? Should the government grant them such a boon? Some would say yes but you still have to take the money out of the private sector, you have to take it from somebody. You also create further disincentive for companies to train workers. Why should they if the government is picking up the tab anyway? Necessity isn’t just the mother of invention; it is also the mother of action. If you have to train workers yourself then that’s what you will do. Otherwise why bother?

You say that humanity tends toward the landsman/pauper dichotomy but I would broaden that to say that we are a hierarchal species. Where ever humans go and whatever we do we form hierarchies. But that’s another whole area of debate for other threads.

You say that we scream all men are created equal. You right, we do. Then we proceed to scream at each other because we can’t agree on what “equal” means. Sigh. And the whirly-gig goes on.

quote:

Not every pauper is lazy, in fact few can afford to be,


I’m making no such claim. Quite the contrary. Growing up I spent much of my summers in Cuba (I still get down there on the weekends) and I’ve had the pleasure of knowing and playing with Hicks. I consider myself half Hick because of it (and before anybody jumps on me about it, they call themselves Hicks – they are quite proud of being Hicks). They are by any monetary reckoning very poor. But they work hard to grow and hunt their own food, sell crafts like hand created furniture and pottery, do odd jobs, etc, and actually live quite comfortably and quite joyfully.


quote:

The game is rigged, and the people who scream most loudly about how -unfair- it is to throw the paupers a bone are the very ones who have a vested interest in retaining their station and justifying their greed. Most of the truly lazy, ignorant individuals I've met in my life have actually had every opportunity and have padded their way to the top of the heap on the backs of anyone with whom they could get away with it. It is profoundly discouraging to find myself in this place, but at least now I am aware, and can prepare my younger kin for the reality of making their way in the world.


I’m just questioning where we get the bones we are tossing from.




Musicmystery -> RE: Minimum Wage Rant (8/10/2009 7:57:20 PM)

quote:

The "pursuit" of happiness is a Constitutional guarantee.


It is? Where?





Marc2b -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 7:58:58 PM)

quote:

Many states had already raised the minimum above the federal mandate. others raised them according to government guildlines. and others still raised their minimum along with givernment, but remaining a bit higher than the required 7.25. so, other than the fact that the economy has turned for the worse, states recognized the importance of doing this, and businesses were not screaming that they may close shop... until now?


Are you sure they weren't screaming until now? I see that you live in Pennsylvania, do you really pay attention to the minum wage debate in, say, Arizona?




Musicmystery -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 8:01:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
When you own a business it is your job to try to make a profit, either for yourself or if a larger company for the shareholders who invest  in that company. It is not there to give assistance to lower wage earners. It is a business, not the 'make a wish' charity.


The last part of this is a pretty antequated notion of management. It's a good recipe for creating a work culture of "Fuck you, I'm just here for the paycheck."

The resulting poor productivity is a poor way to accomplish the first part of your statement.




Marc2b -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 8:02:58 PM)

quote:

Because without the government, it *IS* the megacorp. It's like saying "Between gangrene and antibiotics, I'll take the antibiotics". Then someone comes along and says "NO! Don't take those heathen antibiotics, trust the power of JAYSUS!!!"... three days later, gangrene.

So yeah, from everything I've seen, any attempt at a "third choice" besides government or the megacorps really just means the megacorps by default, and homie don't play dat no more.


Very well then.




tazzygirl -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 8:03:01 PM)

I just moved from Ohio. Lived in California for a year a while back. Visited Arizona. Grew up in the Carolinas after dad left the military. Facts are facts. The minimum set by the state was set years ago.




WyldHrt -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 8:05:23 PM)

quote:

The last part of this is a pretty antequated notion of management. It's a good recipe for creating a work culture of "Fuck you, I'm just here for the paycheck."

The resulting poor productivity is a poor way to accomplish the first part of your statement.

Well said, MM! [:)]




MmeGigs -> RE: Minimum Wage Rant (8/10/2009 8:08:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

The "pursuit" of happiness is a Constitutional guarantee.

It is? Where?


It's not in the Constitution. It is in the Declaration of Independence. The Constitution says nothing about the pursuit of happiness.




Marc2b -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 8:11:49 PM)

quote:

What is your third choice, Marc? Or, if you have more -viable- options that could be supported both by the princes and the paupers, please do share -- or better yet, get thy arse to camelot and offer your sword to Arthur and go battle that dragon.

I am serious, BTW... if you have viable options that will allow individuals who are busting their butts to be able to live and won't piss off the corporate nobles AND will survive our sold-out legislative privateers, then please share, because we seem to have a dearth of functional options.


Why do you divide the world only into prices and paupers? I am certainly neither and suspect a great many other are as well. My third choice (and I make know claim that we will ever have it - thanks to the aformentioned, less savory, aspects of human nature - but hope springs eternal) a government that does what a good government actually is supposed to do. Fairly enforce the laws of a civil society and refuse to play favoritism toward any group or individual. To have that we will have to make some sacrifices like respecting other peoples rights and respecting the rule of law. In other words we will have to stop looking at the government as something that should rig the game in our favor at the expence of other. We could have that government if we really wanted it but, alas, we are having to much fun calling each other names.







tazzygirl -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 8:16:34 PM)

quote:

Fairly enforce the laws of a civil society


and your definition of a civil society is?




Marc2b -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 8:17:26 PM)

quote:

But businesses that pay low wages are depending on government to solve their problems. Low wages are being subsidized with tax dollars in the form of assistance programs for low-wage workers - food stamps, daycare assistance, housing assistance, medical assistance, the Earned Income Credit...


So let's lower taxes so people can have more of their money to afford such things, pay better wages, etc.




playfulotter -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 8:18:49 PM)

Wow! as a 16 year old in high school i was only getting $2.30 an hour and I could actually buy things....things sure have changed..i did get a chunk back though as I recall... 

Can someone let me know how you add a quote from someone else to your message..thanks!




aphotic -> RE: Minimium Wage Rant (8/10/2009 8:20:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: playfulotter

Wow! as a 16 year old in high school i was only getting $2.30 an hour and I could actually buy things....things sure have changed..i did get a chunk back though as I recall... 


Yeah...the dinosaurs died and it all went to hell.




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