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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 10:38:39 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		yeah.. that... what Kyra and Knight said.

I probably should've commented in my original answer that all of the flexibilty that I am expecting out of Carol comes within the context of safety & security as others have mentioned. She knows that in the places which are truly important, her morality & ethics line up nicely with mine. Carol is certainly being asked to do things that offend her sensibilites, but (I hope) within the context of safety still.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 12:36:25 PM   
yummee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

My query is while keeping the above in mind as it pertains to a power based relationship between a "D" and an "S" type person: does the D expect their submissive to deviate from the sub's sense of inhibitions or moral code in this area and place full trust in the dominant even if the dominant person will and may require the sub to go against her inhibitions?
   I am looking at this from the POV that obedience is one of the core values to a power based dynamic and if the obedience wavers then it implies that the relationship can not be accurately be considered a power based D/s or M/s relationship in a pure and accurate form?



He expects me to navigate through whatever obstacles I need to in order to obey.  If those obstacles are inhibitions, fine, that's an easy one.  If those obstacles are part of my moral code, it may be uncomfortable or take a little more time or require his assistance, but those obstacles need to be navigated nonetheless.  We are compatible enough that I have not had to redefine my morals often, but I have had to do several things I thought I never would. 

If there were ever an obstacle I was unable to navigate (even with his assistance), I believe that would be the end of the M/s dynamic in our relationship, and the whole of the relationship soon afterwards.  To him, I am clearly a slave, not a partner or an equal.  Once he can no longer compel me to obey, once I can choose to disobey for whatever reason, the mastery is lost or damaged.  I believe he would try to repair the damage if possible; however, if the M/s is gone, so is the relationship.  We have discussed many "what if's" and he's not interested in a submissive, or a slave as a partner/equal, or a partial-slave/sometimes-slave.  If I am no longer his slave, I am no longer his, period. 

- If I am not obeying him, he will consider the relationship damaged or broken. 
- He will not view non-obedience as a healthy part of our relationship.
- He will only stay in a damaged or broken relationship for so long trying to repair it unsuccessfully before he decides its just not worth it and cuts his losses.



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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 1:35:17 PM   
MasterFireMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

does the D expect their submissive to deviate from the sub's sense of inhibitions or moral code in this area and place full trust in the dominant even if the dominant person will and may require the sub to go against her inhibitions?


Yes.

The caveat is: if the slave doesn't fully trust the Master to lead them through things that are truly in their best interests in order rather than from a completely egoic standpoint, then the slave shouldn't be with that Master in the first place. In other words, they need to know the Master has taken full responsibility of the slave, situation and it's fall out. This kind of trust does not often come quickly.

Master Fire


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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 1:53:23 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

Yes.

The caveat is: if the slave doesn't fully trust the Master to lead them through things that are truly in their best interests in order rather than from a completely egoic standpoint, then the slave shouldn't be with that Master in the first place. In other words, they need to know the Master has taken full responsibility of the slave, situation and it's fall out. This kind of trust does not often come quickly.

Master Fire



Yes, I agree with that and it makes a lot of logical sense. Yet part of me still thinks that when the D/s based relationship reaches that level and intensity that the human factor seems to be waylaid....unless I am presuming way too much for my own good!


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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 2:16:52 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		One of the reasons we identify as D/s and not M/s is that he knows he isn't going to always make the right decision. And some things are huge enough problems that the fall out would be the end of the relationship. Since neither of us want that, it's my job to point out such problems and if necessary, to flatly refuse.

But I have tiered rules. Which means if the more important rule is to protect the relationship, or protect myself, and I don't think I will be able to if I accept today's rule of having a threesome, then I am supposed to refuse today's rule in order to follow the overall one.

In practical usage, I haven't had to use a safe word in years, but if it's necessary I would.

I'm not quite sure where morality and inhibitions intermeet so I haven't mentioned inhibitions. But I was raised in a clothing optional gay community so I am not very inhibited. I do however have a strong sense of appropriateness. Talking to an old friend topless on the beach is appropriate. Stripping off in public when I meet one is not.

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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 6:17:42 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild
Yes, I agree with that and it makes a lot of logical sense. Yet part of me still thinks that when the D/s based relationship reaches that level and intensity that the human factor seems to be waylaid....unless I am presuming way too much for my own good!

Which human factor is that bear? I think that Carol & I fit the description being talked about. Or, at least, at this very moment she is in the situation of choosing whether she trusts me more than her own sense of right & wrong. I'm pretty confident how she'll choose. But what I cannot, for the life of me understand, is in what way did we lose any human factor in that. At least for Carol and I, what has happened is that we are drawn ever closer together.

For each of us, we dare. I dare to take control. She dares to give it up. Together we dare to be more trusting, intimate, close, and loving than we were the day before. It all seems pretty human to me.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 6:28:19 PM   
catize


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam
Yes.
The caveat is: if the slave doesn't fully trust the Master to lead them through things that are truly in their best interests in order rather than from a completely egoic standpoint, then the slave shouldn't be with that Master in the first place. In other words, they need to know the Master has taken full responsibility of the slave, situation and it's fall out. This kind of trust does not often come quickly.
Master Fire


Yes, I agree with that and it makes a lot of logical sense. Yet part of me still thinks that when the D/s based relationship reaches that level and intensity that the human factor seems to be waylaid....unless I am presuming way too much for my own good!

Where this breaks down for me is that at the end of the day, I have to be able to hold up my own mirror and look myself in the eye.  No one can take that responsibility from me,
My morals may be quite different from others but that doesn’t mean I am immoral or amoral about everything.  When it comes to trusting a dominant to ‘know best’ regarding my ethics I would say be careful what you wish for!  It has the potential to not only affect how I feel about myself, but could possibly have a negative impact on the dominant as well. 



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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 9:35:00 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

..., what has happened is that we are drawn ever closer together.



I wanted to highlight this comment from Jeff....

In essense, I found the OP more about the negativity of reaching that point of choice between the slave/submissive holding on to their ethical code or moral value or embracing the change of those ethical codes and moral values.

It has been my experience with Alandra of many years and reinforced by Kyra of several more years that the more ethical values and morals come into line between the individuals in the relationship the closer they become.

Secondly, there is all to much focus on thinking that it's the slave/submissive that is or will adapt. This is not the case and particularly not in my life. I in fact made significant ethical and moral value changes to my life in adapting and accepting a poly-lifestyle. This was a lifestyle that orginated in my relationship from Alandra's desires. In fact, if it wasn't for Alandra's sharing of her desires... it's highly unlikely that poly would of ever been consider by me.

It's clear to me that regardless of who adapts and changes their ethical and moral values... when it's done in a constructive and healthy manner it has an incredible bonding affect on those within the relationship. I am not just talking about those big ethical and value issue either. It's trickles down right to the small things of life as well. The ripples one causes when the stone hits the water is amazing. It' opens places in oneself and relationship that you don't know existed before. There is a quiet calm and serenity in the chaos of daily life. In the beginning that calm was rather unsettling... but now I crave to be embraced in it.

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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/10/2009 11:05:12 PM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		FR ~ I may be out of sync with the thread here because I am responding to the thread header not having the time nor inclination to read through lengthy posts at this time.

I class myself as being amoral in that I do not hold to the Judeo-Christian form of morality and rather live by a Code of Conduct. I do have a few inhibitions which are hard line do not force the issue types and include:
  • Abuse of ums, disabled and elderly or otherwise people who are unable to protect themselves.
  • The inclusion of ums, animals and scat into any form of adult play.
  • Having spiders near me at any time.
  • Small tight spaces and being restrained (I reach violently of someone attempts to force me into such a situation).
  • Anyone one touching my face other than Neets, medical staff or others who I have allowed to go there (My defence mechanism almost broke someone's arm when they tried to touch my face recently ~ a serious inhibition from a period when I was hard interrogated over a 72 hour period).
Prior to entering any potential TPE situation, these things are on the table and I expect the slave to do the same by tabling her inhibitions and morality areas. It only by satisfactorily discussing these things to a point where they are not going to become a problem that the persopn may be collared and accepted into the home. If we can't sort something out to a mutual agreeable situation, the deal is off.


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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/11/2009 12:38:04 AM   
MasterFireMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild


Yes, I agree with that and it makes a lot of logical sense. Yet part of me still thinks that when the D/s based relationship reaches that level and intensity that the human factor seems to be waylaid....unless I am presuming way too much for my own good!



If you are saying that it seems that when that level of intensity is reached, the "human-ness" of the slave largely disappears, I would agree with that. Stripping away the ego enough that the slave is described as a "creature who obeys" does indeed take away much of what most would consider "human". The slave becomes a creature...an "it".

This is not a bad thing...for it is then that the Master and slave are doing their highest calling, in my opinion. The slave has become an "it" in the exact same way the hand is an "it". The hand is treated with honor and respect and is kept healthy and is loved as the rest of the body is loved. It is a place of great honor (and most certainly NOT a degradation) to be such a fluid extension of the Master...and with that come GREAT responsibility on the part of the Master.

Master Fire



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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/11/2009 5:21:53 AM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists


I guess I am more adaptable than I thought. There are some pieces of my moral code that are at the core of who I am and then there are others that have just been put there over time because of society. Working to weed out which is the core of me and which is just extra junk that I don't need has been quite a challenge.


I just wanted to say I loved the way you stated this. It makes perfect sense. You always have a way of saying things so succinctly yet so wisely, Kyra. Thanks

luci

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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/11/2009 8:33:32 AM   
leadership527


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Status: offline 		I SOOOO agree with this sentiment Knight.

Sometimes, to read the posts on collarme just makes me shudder. Punishment, disobedience, betrayal, limits & rights, contracts and freakin relationship litigation. Evil masters force their insidious wills on idiotic and gullible slaves. I can only assume that next up we're going to see professional M/s lawyers to argue our rights in court *sighs*. I'm sure there'll be some who read my post and imagined me, the evil overlord, warping Carol's head until she is a mindless brain-eating zombie.

All I know is none of that resembles very much the actual life I, you, and others lead.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/11/2009 8:41:07 AM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I'm sure there'll be some who read my post and imagined me, the evil overlord, warping Carol's head until she is a mindless brain-eating zombie.
I never had that thought before.  But now I'm imagining you dressed as Ming the Merciless and cackling evilly. 


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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/11/2009 8:55:16 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Acer49

The Dominant may own someone’s mind and body, however, the soul and the code of morals has a stamp on it, Property of God. No dominant will ever be worthy or pure enough to stand up to the Almighty and as such has no business messing with a sub’s moral code.

This concept is just a subjective choice...but a formidable example of one of the key points bear has alluded to.

"Faith" and "morality" both are phenomena than create in an individual a strict personal investment in something or in an idea that supersedes all else. They instill in the person the assured "rightness" of a certain set of parameters, which are automatically prioritized.

In a dynamic where a slave is supposed to be able to trust and surrender entirely to another, having facets that specifically "will not" be surrendered creates a contradiction to slavery (which I am using contextually to reference a full power exchange dynamic)

Back to above quote, however...much as we may wish to tell ourselves otherwise, there is no universal immutable moral compass. The power dynamic part of slavery would suggest that the slave yields completely to the D-type because of the D-type's capacity to lead in a thoroughly competent way. If the slave still has a competing inner D-type (in the form of a deity or any untouchable moral code) then there is a clash of interest (and trust).


_____________________________

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/11/2009 9:52:42 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

His Sexyiness said:
In a dynamic where a slave is supposed to be able to trust and surrender entirely to another, having facets that specifically "will not" be surrendered creates a contradiction to slavery (which I am using contextually to reference a full power exchange dynamic)

If we assume that "total" is the ever-unreachable goal that we can only approach asymptotically, then when we talk about TPE, we are discussing the desire to push as far as we're able with the full understanding that we will never be able to touch the sun. I could easily list dozens of commands that I hope & pray Carol would never obey. It's just I don't actually want to issue any of those commands. I suspect that EVERYONE carves out some little piece of stuff that, to them, is "ridiculous and out of bounds" and then is "total" within the context of what is left. Some folks call that D/s and others M/s. I don't actually believe there is any difference between them other than viewpoint and perhaps a measure of how well the relationship is working out.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/11/2009 10:27:07 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

His Sexyiness said:

Are you trying to brown-nose for points?
Not saying it wouldn't work...

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

If we assume that "total" is the ever-unreachable goal that we can only approach asymptotically, then when we talk about TPE, we are discussing the desire to push as far as we're able with the full understanding that we will never be able to touch the sun. I could easily list dozens of commands that I hope & pray Carol would never obey. It's just I don't actually want to issue any of those commands.

It does get a little complicated here and I admit I may be more prone to view things symbolically and internally rather than in practice. There has to be some connection theory that unites the slave's capacity to understand competent decision-making enough to be able to see the person xhe's surrendering to has it. Yet, I also see (once that's in place) a demonstrable trust and yielding by the slave to that person as critical, to where the default reaction in moments of potential discord, the initial thoughts, in priority order are:
  1. Xhe must have a sensible reason for requiring X when it's an awkward or difficult task for me.
  2. Perhaps I've failed to disclose a piece of pertinent information relating to X that Xhe would need in order to make a fully informed choice as to this being what's best for Hir, me and our relationship.
Barring an unexpected neurological problem which could potentially be truly harming and hindering the D-type's actions, thoughts and dictates, I would expect trust to manifest itself in the above progression of thoughts with the self-expectation of the slave to obey still being at the forefront.

Of course, all this lies in a trust in the D-type and a trust that if a mistake is made, that it will be owned up to and dealt with appropriately...all of which is relevant, I think, to expecting a D-type to actually care (in word and action) about Hir slave.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I suspect that EVERYONE carves out some little piece of stuff that, to them, is "ridiculous and out of bounds" and then is "total" within the context of what is left. Some folks call that D/s and others M/s. I don't actually believe there is any difference between them other than viewpoint and perhaps a measure of how well the relationship is working out.

Interesting idea, actually. The one glitch I see is that if we are altering what "totality" is and means for each individual based on what is comfortably scalpeled away or not, then we are losing the concept of surrender in the first place (since anything can then be said, by the slave, to be too "core" a part to be relinquished).

From a clinical, logical perspective, this is why I stick "morality" and "faith" into a category of things that are (in reality) malleable but to which the slave can have so much a fixation on that they may as well not be.

I think it may start with the slave's consensual desire to be willing to be molded into being better and that xhe , from scrutiny analysis and experience of hir D-type's thoughts attitudes and actions, considers Hir a excellent choice of whom to give those reins..

It's a subtle difference between saying "Take my reins and go wherever you think you wanna go, even though I haven't taken the time to really see where you're going." and saying "I really like where you're going. Take my reins and whatever paths or obstacles you need to take me through to get there, I accept."

*ponders more*

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 8/11/2009 10:50:21 AM >

_____________________________

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/11/2009 10:39:04 AM   
daintydimples


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quote:

It's a subtle difference between saying "Take my reins and go wherever you think you wanna go, even though I haven't taken the time to really see where you're going." and saying "I really like where you're going. Take my reins and whatever paths or obstacles you needs to take me through to get there, I accept."


I agree with this statement, except I don't find the difference so subtle. To me, there is a profound difference., since it's all about making informed choices.


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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/11/2009 10:44:31 AM   
corsetgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

This is why I stayed single for so very long.

My morals are not the same as my inhibitions. If I was just feeling shy about doing something and Master ordered me to do it anyway, I do it.

If he asked me to go against my values and morals then we'd have a huge problem and most likely our relationship would be on the verge of ending.

I took my time in finding a man who was as close to my morals and values as possible, someone I knew who wouldn't make me feel ashamed for doing something I knew deep down was wrong.

And this is the whole problem imo. People rushing into relaitonships, into playing with others without first really getting to know the other person. I'm not talking about going over a list of dos and don't, of limits, etc...I'm talking about just being with each other and really...really...getting to know who the person is that you are with.




Too many times some doms and subs get caught up with playing without getting to know each other as people. Great observation!

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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/11/2009 10:48:38 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

I think it may start with the slave's consensual desire to be willing to be molded into being better and that xhe , from scrutiny analysis and experience of hir D-type's thoughts attitudes and actions, considers Hir a excellent choice of whom to give those reins..


In general, I think that I pretty much agree with what you're saying, Ni, but one bit of nit-picky semantics trips me up right here. See.. I think that the phrase "being better" just needles at me. The truth is, I don't want my TPE servants to "be better" -- they may be just fine the way they are. What I -want- from them is for them to agree that the road that is -important- is the road of -my- choosing, whether or not they would choose to go down that road themselves, and without knowing where that road may lead or whether the journey will be easy, difficult, or will require leaving the carriage on the side of the road with a broken axel and packing in what remains to the best shelter we can find. I want a servant who can yield to me -knowing- that I am fallible, but recognizing that leadership is my forte, and that, if things "go south", I am not going to just leave us to rot in the midden.

It may -not- make them a better person. It may not make -me- a better person. It will probably -change- both of us, but whether change is "better" or not can only be determined in -retrospect-... so what I'm looking at in terms of development is only "better", from my perspective looking at my servant, in terms of hir being -more obedient- and more -willing to obey- at more profound levels, even with the potential that the obedience required might mean letting go of some pre-conceived and very comfortable mindsets, beliefs, ethical frameworks, and self-made plans... and if that isn't going to work, then neither is a comprehensive-authority dynamic.

quote:

It's a subtle difference between saying "Take my reins and go wherever you think you wanna go, even though I haven't taken the time to really see where you're going." and saying "I really like where you're going. Take my reins and whatever paths or obstacles you needs to take me through to get there, I accept."


And then there is "Take my reins. I don't know where you're going, and that, frankly, scares me some, but I know that I am ready for you to hold the reins without -needing- to know where you're going." PLUS "I am taking the reins. I have a journey we will go on, and I expect you to go where I direct you... however, if you ever find that you absolutely -must- go down a different road, then I will consider that this likely means that this leg of our journey together must come to an end."  and -that- is more like what I perceive as my philosophy on the issue of personal morality (ethics) and inhibitions, particularly when addressing TPE/comprehensive-authority type dynamics.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/11/2009 10:53:19 AM >

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RE: Personal Morality/Inhibitions in a PE Dynamic - 8/11/2009 10:56:52 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

In general, I think that I pretty much agree with what you're saying, Ni, but one bit of nit-picky semantics trips me up right here. See.. I think that the phrase "being better" just needles at me. The truth is, I don't want my TPE servants to "be better" -- they may be just fine the way they are. What I -want- from them is for them to agree that the road that is -important- is the road of -my- choosing, whether or not they would choose to go down that road themselves, and without knowing where that road may lead or whether the journey will be easy, difficult, or will require leaving the carriage on the side of the road with a broken axel and packing in what remains to the best shelter we can find. I want a servant who can yield to me -knowing- that I am fallible, but recognizing that leadership is my forte, and that, if things "go south", I am not going to just leave us to rot in the midden.

Fair point on the semantics. The servant, though, would still be yielding to your choice of path because you thought it was "better" (even if the path i stagnation in certain facets), right? I used the term "better" not so much intentionally as a comparative word but based on the fact that it's human nature to want to be "better" than we are. To progress. And, in this case, the servant/slave/sub is deciding that the path of the D-type is one that will yield that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

It may -not- make them a better person. It may not make -me- a better person. It will probably -change- both of us, but whether change is "better" or not can only be determined in -retrospect-... so what I'm looking at in terms of development is only "better", from my perspective looking at my servant, in terms of hir being -more obedient- and more -willing to obey- at more profound levels, even with the potential that the obedience required might mean letting go of some pre-conceived and very comfortable mindsets, beliefs, ethical frameworks, and self-made plans... and if that isn't going to work, then neither is a comprehensive-authority dynamic.

Dame Calla


That too would need to have pre-determined value placement, though, right? The reason who you want them to be more obedient and willing to obey is a compound mixture of wanting it for yourself and wanting it for them in understood complement to what they seek as well.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
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