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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 11:55:56 AM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Sociologically, it can cover the cultural, political, and legal aspects; and philosophically, it can span the moral, ethical, theological, spiritual or religious aspects.

Recent studies on human sexuality have highlighted that sexual aspects are of major importance in building up personal identity and to social evolution of individuals:

If we're using the broadest definition of sexuality, surely the parts of Wiki I've highlighted show that sexuality isn't a private matter in the way previously suggested?


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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 12:15:56 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Hello lioncub. Feminism is gender politics, it is about social equality. In our context, submission is about sexuality.

Just for the record, neither my dominance nor Carol's submission is sexually motivated. For us, we see feminism and D/s in the same camp... a discussion of male/female roles within the society. We just don't see any conflicts between what feminism wants and being a slave. Carol HAS chosen the life she wants to lead. She continues to do so daily and that choice is making her happy. Feminists rejoice!


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 12:23:46 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Hello lioncub. Feminism is gender politics, it is about social equality. In our context, submission is about sexuality.

Just for the record, neither my dominance nor Carol's submission is sexually motivated. For us, we see feminism and D/s in the same camp... a discussion of male/female roles within the society. We just don't see any conflicts between what feminism wants and being a slave. Carol HAS chosen the life she wants to lead. She continues to do so daily and that choice is making her happy. Feminists rejoice!



indeed.  not everyone's submission is solely sexually motivated.  some of us are submissive OUTSIDE of the bedroom/dungeon as well.

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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 12:31:30 PM   
robertolapiedra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra
Sociologically, it can cover the cultural, political, and legal aspects; and philosophically, it can span the moral, ethical, theological, spiritual or religious aspects.

Recent studies on human sexuality have highlighted that sexual aspects are of major importance in building up personal identity and to social evolution of individuals:

If we're using the broadest definition of sexuality, surely the parts of Wiki I've highlighted show that sexuality isn't a private matter in the way previously suggested?



Hello Apocalypso. Sexuality can private in one context or instance and not in another. The expression of sexuality be it intimate or formal is part of one's identity and is context driven. We all have different modes of behaviour that depend on ''external'' context also, not just private aspirations, desires or needs. Also I make a distinction between the term ''private'' and ''intimate'' as one states ''exclusion'' and the other ''inclusion''. All sexuality is private until it is shared, be it of an intimate nature, a public one or anywhere in between. Right? RL.

Edit: bad spelling



< Message edited by robertolapiedra -- 8/10/2009 12:32:47 PM >

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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 1:41:52 PM   
MasterFireMaam


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At the risk of using "twue"...

True feminism, in my mind, is about the right for a women to choose the path that most fully fits who you are as an Authentic, Self aware individual being. If pursuing your submissive role in this light, there is no possible critic your mother could ever make that would be in support of this feminist choice you have made...and thus, SHE is the one who is trying to take away your choice and have you submit to her view of the world and thus her control.

Note: the idea isn't really limited to feminism...it's really humanism in that EVERYone should be free to choose their own path.

Master Fire


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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 1:46:35 PM   
lioncub


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Thank you all!

Submission may very take part in sexuality, but in my mind, sex is not the reason for it.


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In gentleness there is strength.

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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 1:54:55 PM   
lioncub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

*sighs* OK, it doesn't really matter which studies you read... if you read stuff on leadership, you'll find that only a small percentage of humans are in the "natural leader" category. So doing some sloppy deductive work, we can loosely assume that something like 9 out of 10 people are more in the follower camp than leader one. Which really gets you to thinking... what freakin idiotic society paints the natural disposition of 90% of it's population as defective?

My mom is a feminist in the sense that she believes men are equal to women, besides the very obvious difference of parts. I believe this as well. A women can do what ever she pleases, as can a man.
Yeah, Carol is also... she's an old-school feminist given her age. And, in fact, so am I. It literally disgusts me that there is still a wage gap and still a glass ceiling (although both are slowly but surely crumbling). The idea that women should be subjected to sexual advances in the workplace is enough to make my blood boil. Conveniently, I don't see what any of those really firmly held convictions has to do with Carol being my slave.

The problem is that I feel guilty for being of a submissive nature, when my mother tried so hard to raise me otherwise!
This, right here, is I suspect the root of the problem? Did she REALLY try to raise you otherwise? I would suggesting asking yourself a series of "why" questions here to try to understand what your mother REALLY wanted and, more importantly, what YOU really want. From your description, you're not defective as a human. You are perfectly well capable of functioning as a self-supporting adult in society. You just CHOOSE to take a subordinate role. How is that any different than me taking a dominant role? In the end, all my leadership is worth exactly zero without someone to follow. You could argue that I'm just as "defective" as Carol is. I just tend to see us as two sides of the same coin that work together well without any value judgement on whether heads or tails is better.

I've had feelings of inadequacy for being submissive, even before I realized what "being submissive" was. I have sometimes felt that I am a failure of a young women, or what society says is a young women. And I guess that may be true, I am not what popular culture sees as strong. Of course, I know that I am strong. It is hard, though, to keep up my self-esteem in a world where the strong women are the independent, self-sufficient ones.
Yeah yeah.. but WHY? Why SPECIFICALLY is being submissive bad. You yourself have stated (as I noted above) that you are a capable and competent human. You just have a preference towards following someone else's lead rather than striking out on your own. You share that preference with the vast majority of humanity. So exactly how is that a bad thing?



It is a question of knowing these things in my head, and feeling them. Logically, abiding by my submissive nature is the obvious thing to do! It is the undeniable me. There is nothing bad about it. The problem is that there is a part of me that cares, however irrationally, what everyone else is doing and what they are going to think.

I deeply appreciate your answer. Thanks!

_____________________________

In gentleness there is strength.

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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 2:19:28 PM   
kitastrophe33


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I struggled with this for a time, right at the beginning. Thankfully, I had a kink friendly therapist that really helped me to understand where the conflict was coming from and how to resolve it.

I think there are two main issues to understand. First is the issue of consent. Prior to the feminist movement, women had to submit to the men in their lives because the female gender (although vital to the continuation of the species) was not as valued in that society. We aren't failing to stand by our sisters and take up the cause by submitting to our partners at this point because our society has changed. I think you'll find, that a woman willing to submit to her partner is highly valued at this point.

Which brings me to my next thought. For me differentiating between value and role was helpful too. I am equal in value to any man, but in my intimate relationships, I chose to not have equal roles with him. It is more of a division of labor decision and a conflict resolution decision. I am more comfortable dividing it this way, others are more comfortable with a F/m arrangement. Others like to share equally the power. I find the constant negotiation of the 50-50 division very tedious.

AS far as any of our S&M activities. I enjoy the feelings of being on the receiving end. I don't like how I feel being on the giving end. This fact has always been enough to prevent me from feeling shame over my role in our activities

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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 3:00:13 PM   
littleone35


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I have to admit i am a feminist  what can i say i was raised in the 60's and 70's.  I believe in equal pay for equal work, and i toatlly hate that the fact that one has a penis and tho other does not  detrimines the pay a person recieves.

The woman rights movment gave me the option of choosing what in life will fulfill me an make me happy.  I can and do choose to work and take on the role of teacher. I am still a sub but i submit to only one  that is my choice and i embrace it (and him).

I don't see why submission and being a feminist have to mutually exclusive because i am both

Matt's littleone

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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 6:42:58 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

It is a question of knowing these things in my head, and feeling them. Logically, abiding by my submissive nature is the obvious thing to do! It is the undeniable me. There is nothing bad about it. The problem is that there is a part of me that cares, however irrationally, what everyone else is doing and what they are going to think.

*laughs* Wait! You're worried what everyone else will think? Gosh, in BDSM-speak, Carol is usually somewhere close to the TPE end of things (*laughs* the engineer in me just can't quite say the absolute). Significantly to this discusison though, we don't have boundaries or safe words... in BDSM-speak the word "slave" probably captures carol pretty closely.

What do her parents think of it? Her very very old-fashioned and very vanilla parents? Why, they think the fact that she's found a strong, assertive man who loves her deeply is quite wonderful. They think the way she anticipates my needs and provides them is a delightful sign of her love for me (as do I). They think we're very close as a couple and it seems like there's little friction between us. When one of us zigs, the other zags. I suppose that had I told them Carol is my slave they would've freaked. But that would be stupid since using that word would not communicate accurately to them. Instead, I use words that they can make sense of.

This stuff is only hard to explain to other people when you deliberately use words designed to make it hard -- namely ANY bdsm words *laughs*. I mean seriously, do the words "Love, honor, and obey" mean anything to you? How much more old-fashioned, down-home vanilla do you care to get?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 6:49:10 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

The problem is that I feel guilty for being of a submissive nature, when my mother tried so hard to raise me otherwise!


~FR~

Look at it this way, lioncub... the goal of feminism was to allow women free choice to be and do whatever they wanted to be and do. Therefore, though some may quabble, if what you want to be is yourself, and what you want to -do- is submit... then in choosing to do what calls you, without regard to public opinion or bias, you are fully realizing the dream of feminism.

Dame Calla

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 8:09:31 PM   
Firebirdseeking


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I look at it this way:  I have been a feminist as long as I can remember.  Professsionally, and in some aspects of my personal life, I am take charge, even dominant.  However, in my personal life, in an intimate relationship, I need something else.  I see no conflict here at all.  And, I agree with Mercnbeth, D/s is NOT just about sexuality.  Its how we are wired. 

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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/10/2009 10:11:12 PM   
sweetsub1957


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lioncub

I'd just like to share my thoughts on my newly-accepted submissive nature. I hope this is the right place.

My mom is a feminist in the sense that she believes men are equal to women, besides the very obvious difference of parts. I believe this as well. A women can do what ever she pleases, as can a man. The problem is that I feel guilty for being of a submissive nature, when my mother tried so hard to raise me otherwise! I can function perfectly well on my own without someone there to be an authority figure or guide, but it's something I crave. All my life before this I was told that strong women are independent and don't need men (or a dominant someone) to hold their hand!

I've had feelings of inadequacy for being submissive, even before I realized what "being submissive" was. I have sometimes felt that I am a failure of a young women, or what society says is a young women. And I guess that may be true, I am not what popular culture sees as strong. Of course, I know that I am strong. It is hard, though, to keep up my self-esteem in a world where the strong women are the independent, self-sufficient ones.

Thanks for reading!


I am a feminist.  I am also a submissive.  My mother and my sister both told me for most of my life that a submissive woman is weak and a doormat.....my sister still tells me that.  Not necessarilly true.  For many years, I felt guilty and a failure for not living up to their expectations.  After much soul-searching, I finally realized.....feminism is about freeing women from being stuck in certain roles that society expects us to be in.  Now we have the right to choose what we want to do and be, and that includes being submissive if we so wish. 

Those who would tell us we don't have to right to choose consensual submission are no more thinking like feminists than those who would have us stay "barefoot and pregnant."  I am freely choosing to be a submissive woman so my feminism and my submissive nature are not at odds with each other.  I really think it takes a stronger woman to go against society's expectations of her than to just "go with the flow." 

And unlike someone said earlier in this thread, I feel that submissiveness is not necessarilly only about sexuality.  Mine isn't.  I am submissive to Sir in every way, not just sexually, and that's okay.....because I choose to be. 


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In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

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RE: Female Submission and Feminism - 8/11/2009 3:53:56 AM   
KCalli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lioncub

I'd just like to share my thoughts on my newly-accepted submissive nature. I hope this is the right place.

My mom is a feminist in the sense that she believes men are equal to women, besides the very obvious difference of parts. I believe this as well. A women can do what ever she pleases, as can a man. The problem is that I feel guilty for being of a submissive nature, when my mother tried so hard to raise me otherwise! I can function perfectly well on my own without someone there to be an authority figure or guide, but it's something I crave. All my life before this I was told that strong women are independent and don't need men (or a dominant someone) to hold their hand!

I've had feelings of inadequacy for being submissive, even before I realized what "being submissive" was. I have sometimes felt that I am a failure of a young women, or what society says is a young women. And I guess that may be true, I am not what popular culture sees as strong. Of course, I know that I am strong. It is hard, though, to keep up my self-esteem in a world where the strong women are the independent, self-sufficient ones.

Thanks for reading!


Equality and submission are not mutually exclusive. My job is generally termed as a "man's job". I am equal to them in my job in every way. Excel in some, more than they can. When it comes to even vanilla couples. You can't have 2 leaders. Just as animals in the wild. There are not two Alpha's in the same territory. They will fight, or at least not get along and cause discord. It just doesn't work very well, always a power struggle. One is leading, one is submitting/following. Whether they admit it out loud or not. As a woman I am a very strong woman. I work in a man's world.  As I submit entirely to my Dom, it is a huge sense of freedom and sense of focus. His burden is great. All I need do is submit myself, which is an easy and needed thing.

You are not a failure if you are seeking to find the place where you fit. You must find your place of comfort and belonging. Society, if you look around, is having some serious problems. I wouldn't take to heart what society thinks. Others, the strong women, or anyone else for that matter, have their "public face" and "private face". What is shown to the world is probably a facade for public viewing. Who they are may be something entirely different.

An aside: Everyone needs someone. No one is an island (generally speaking, although there are times I retreat for a time of solitude, but that is not the same thing). Having someone else does not make one weak. 

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