Humanity? Responsibility? (Full Version)

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CallaFirestormBW -> Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 7:43:17 AM)

This came up for me as I delved into my -real- thoughts (gleaned from time spent in quiet, considering the many things I've seen, read, discussed, and spoken on in the past six months -- but breaking them down without the rhetoric of the "loud world" in my ear) about some of what is happening in the United States right now, in particular surrounding posts regarding the newly increased Minimum Wage and the huge issue of Health Insurance and the 'sellout' of truly -functional- health insurance for every American vs. the corporate sham that is being pushed through as a prettily decorated non-solution.

Do I think that we have a responsibility, as human beings, to do our best to assure that our neighbors have a decent standard of living? Yes, though it will likely chap someone's ass, I do. I think that until we are worried about whether Joe Blow down the street can feed his kids, and until he is worried about whether I can take my companion to the doctor when she gets sick, we will -never- develop the mindset that will allow us to resolve some of the -huge- issues facing the human race. It isn't that we're not -able- to get to that point. There are many who have gone there, and beyond. The issue is not that we -can't-, but that we have no -desire- to. We prefer to remain ignorant, isolated, and self-centered, and then try to -justify- those behaviors as something -beneficial- to our immediate community and to humanity at large... when just a look out the WINDOW or an hour watching the evening news shows up the delusional nature of our current line of thought.

I've come to the conclusion that human beings are pathologically narcissistic, and I wonder, some days, whether it might not be best just to let the entire race implode. I just wish I didn't have to watch it. I know that's selfish, but I wish that I could shelter the people that I love and that I've cared for from the coming storm, because we -have- gone that extra mile. We haven't waited for the government to fix things for us. We've worked hard, and not just for ourselves... but when the whole thing goes spinning down the toilet, we're going to go with it. I guess the only -other- thing I can hope for is for the end to be swift -- our race has suffered enough at our own hands. At least let our passing into extinction be mercifully quick.

I don't know why I'm posting this out here -- except that it's taken me a while to sort all of this out in my own head, and now I wonder whether I've done myself any kind of service by even opening my eyes.

I'm the man in the box
Buried in my shit
Won't you come and save me, save me

Feed my eyes, can you sew them shut?
Jesus Christ, deny your maker
He who tries, will be wasted
Feed my eyes now you've sewn them shut

I'm the dog who gets beat
Shove my nose in shit
Won't you come and save me, save me

Feed my eyes, can you sew them shut?
Jesus Christ, deny your maker
He who tries, will be wasted
Feed my eyes now you've sewn them shut

Feed my eyes, can you sew them shut?
Jesus Christ, deny your maker
He who tries, will be wasted
Feed my eyes now you've sewn them shut


DC
(Lyrics from "Man in the Box-Alice in Chains")




cpK69 -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 8:13:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Do I believe that we have a responsibility, as human beings, to do our best to assure that our neighbors have a decent standard of living? Yes, I think we do.


I would prefer people just learn to be responsable for themselves. I am firmly of the belief; I am not my brother's/sister's keeper. If I were, how would they learn?

Kim




olena -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 8:30:08 AM)

Yes humans are animals for the most part and self interest always tends to rule the day.

What we are seeing in this country is not anything different then any other country throughout history. What has made this country special and democracy the superior government method is the fact we can and do over time enact change in a gradual and violent free way, for the most part.

Throughout history the powerful have taken from the less powerful. In all places there are powerful people or over time delusion crept in the ranks that start taking more and more causing more and more hardship on the less fortunate. Rome invaded countries to steal wealth and make them slaves but over time they became greedy and lazy and left more and more groups willing to fight against them because they had very little to loose.

The cost of healthcare and the erosion of the middle class in this country to have and have nots is something that will get dealt with one way or another. Those who sit in their ivory towers or do not understand their high paying jobs are directly related to people below them making less and consumers buying things all they are doing is the debated “let them eat cake” of Marie Antoinette during the beginning of the French Revolution when these people blindly think the people that are poor are all lazy and the people that do not have health insurance are lazy scamming bums.

At some point there will be a tipping point. With more and more not being able to afford what health insurance, doctor bills and prescriptions whether from increased costs or companies more and more dropping this benefit or dumping the cost on the employee. Right now I have found it fascinating that most that speak against any major change seem to be the well off and older people whose main motivation is protecting their own government run health insurance Medicare.

Whether this water down talk delays the inevitable or not a radical change in healthcare will happen sooner then later as we are in fact reaching the tipping point in that.

God preaches over and over to help the less fortunate. We as a species and in this country seem to like to ignore those teachings and like to focus on gay marriage and any other pet peeve the Bible might help to support our personal opinion. I donate my time to a food kitchen. During the good times most of the people that come in are people with legitimate mental health issues that cannot hold down a paying job. During time like this we see many more people come in just trying to feed their family. Are sum lazy and trying to walk through this life living off others, sure, but most are proud and work hard n life and are a shame and embarrassed to come in and get our help.

It is easy to live in an ivory tower and think any less fortunate would be fine if they just tried harder. But it took these very same people for one to live in an ivory tower and ignoring their ever increasing hardship and think “get a job or a better paying one” is not far different from “let them eat cake”.




cornflakegirl -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 8:43:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Do I believe that we have a responsibility, as human beings, to do our best to assure that our neighbors have a decent standard of living? Yes, I think we do.


I would prefer people just learn to be responsable for themselves. I am firmly of the belief; I am not my brother's/sister's keeper. If I were, how would they learn?

Kim


Why can't people help each other and teach them at the same time? It's not give a man fish every day forever, or watch him starve. Why not teach him to fish, and give him a first meal so he's prepared and ready to face his first day as a fisherman?




cpK69 -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 8:57:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cornflakegirl

Why can't people help each other and teach them at the same time? It's not give a man fish every day forever, or watch him starve. Why not teach him to fish, and give him a first meal so he's prepared and ready to face his first day as a fisherman?



Helping and keeping, are not the same thing, the difference being; allowing someone to be responsible for their self, and thinking I should be responsible for them.

Kim




cornflakegirl -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 9:14:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
quote:

ORIGINAL: cornflakegirl

Why can't people help each other and teach them at the same time? It's not give a man fish every day forever, or watch him starve. Why not teach him to fish, and give him a first meal so he's prepared and ready to face his first day as a fisherman?



Helping and keeping, are not the same thing, the difference being; allowing someone to be responsible for their self, and thinking I should be responsible for them.

Kim


We don't have a responsibility on an individual level to every individual out there. We do have a responsibility as the collective of humans to create a safe place for everyone. Those who have never learned to fish deserve a teacher.




cpK69 -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 9:32:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cornflakegirl

We don't have a responsibility on an individual level to every individual out there. We do have a responsibility as the collective of humans to create a safe place for everyone. Those who have never learned to fish deserve a teacher.


Bubble wrap suits for everyone? [:D]

There has to be willingness and capability in order to learn.

Perhaps after the false religion of capitalism has had it's day... then humanity can begin.

Kim





Termyn8or -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 9:47:47 AM)

What I have seen is a shift from personal responsibility. Used to be if I hit someone's car, I went to get the money to pay them and off to a notary, while I am composing the release. Now everybody has to have insurance. How why the fuck do I need $37,500 worth of insurance if I have $510,000 in the bank ?

But that is not the way now. Tell you what, of all the things, I think insurance should be illegal. Bring responsibility back to the person, not the society at large. Air bags and seat belts, all hogwash. Put railroad ties in the doors of the car and lots of pointy things on the dash. If you hit someone you are likely to die, if someone hits you, just keep on going. In two years there would be no car wrecks. People think driving is like a video game. With the current economic situation I think some have found playing with other people's money is a like video game. That fucking stupidity is reinforced by the bailout. I would like to see the stupid fucks at a homeless shelter.

Personal responsibility is the fulcrum of retaining our rights. It is also something that disappears when one is so self protected, seat belted in and insured to the hilt that they feel invincable. Face it folks, past age twenty you are no longer immortal, that's life. You have insurance and extended warraties on damnear everything, so who cares ? You even make payments to people who will make your payments if you get laid off.

Let me tell you something I know from personal experience - Consequences teach. Now if we are isolated from the consequences of our actions, how would we learn ? Wanna learn how to drive ? Get all jammed up like me and KNOW that if anything happens it will cost you a couple of grand. Sooner or later cops will be stopping people for driving too well, assuming there is a reason for this "perfect" behavior. You think I am kidding ?

Take the issue of profiling. OK it's not right but in some areas they are more prone to stop a Black person than a White person. It's still a money game, they figure there is a better chance they will find drugs or something and make the stop really worthwhile. Not fair of course, but in some areas might be true. And the fact that it is all a money game means it is not strictly racist. I don't condone it, I just callem as I seeum.

Now they got pet health insurance. Now you can feed your dog junk food and then get him the cataract operation, the gall bladder whatever. You are no longer responsible for his health, someone else is.

Get my drift here ? People have no idea what true personal responsibility is, and I will include myself. Most have no conception of "Damn I am all busted up, but that field has to be plowed within the next few days or my kids will starve this winter". That's how it was. Now you just go get a food card from the government.

So maybe I agree more than even the OP, wouldn't be the first time.

T




NihilusZero -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 9:57:15 AM)

There's only so far we can run from ourselves (take it from a Vulcan-like person [:D]).

Everything is so situation and humans are inherently narcissistic anyways (it's kind of a byproduct of self-reflective sentience, which I still maintain is more a negative than positive mutation).

On the issue of responsibility...although I'd like to think that we all should hold to that degree of respectful ethics, I would not support any notion of making it forced and (misanthrope speaking) know better than to expect it from most anyway.




Termyn8or -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 10:21:41 AM)

"it's kind of a byproduct of self-reflective sentience, which I still maintain is more a negative than positive mutation"

Astute if nothing else. I am not sure if I agree but a statement of that magnitude is going to require some pontification before I can generate a valid response.

T




olena -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 11:43:38 AM)

The ability to be personally responsible is under attack as people losing the concept of such a thing which I do not dispute.

The fact is under capitalism and the merger mania of be bigger and bigger many things in this life are not affordable even if you are the most self responsible person out there. We all cannot be lawyers and doctors. We all do not have jobs that pay the bulk of our health insurance. When in an auto accident we do not pay for the other’s car to be fixed but have to pay for practically everything else for them. You can toss out insurance tomorrow but it will not shrink the costs of healthcare or the cost of a new car and medical expenses of an accident.

That is why I call it all ivory tower theory excuses. The person that has the money or nice enough job to have the insurance coverage and afford all the basic necessities and some or many of the others are often reliant on people who are not as fortunate. The food you eat could cost you four times as much if not for the low wages and no benefits of a migrant worker. Your big Mac would cost much more if to get anyone to work for them they had to pay for health insurance or give them a wage so the employee can afford it. That factory worker you are paid many more times that he is and to think he can afford to pay market rate of health care or the same dollars in taxes to the government is delusional.

To pay these people so they can afford to pay equal in healthcare costs, taxes and other expenses people point to in these discussions would mean a lot less income for those who “work hard” to get it. You would see true communism type thoughts, I have been there, trust me when people know there is nothing they can do but be poor and miserable they loose any incentive to help make the rich get richer. Because that is what happens an elite group forms and choose to ignore the never ending slow downward trend of the masses.

So the theory of self responsibility is a good and noble one to have. But the ability to needs to be there and I have never seen a government or money system that truly lets all people have that shot. Again we all cannot be above average wage earners, so besides if one believes in God and that we should help our fellow human beings it is in the best interest in the people who do well economically in life to make sure the less fortunate do not go with too much without because the pendulum will swing back.




tazzygirl -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 1:39:03 PM)

I dont know how many of you remember the days when you did something bad as a kid, and your parents knew before you got home, because a neighbor called to tell them. and it wasnt the neighbor who got yelled at for calling. now days its all... how dare you call to get my kid in trouble...

i also remember the days when you could call a neighbor to watch over your house while you were gone for the weekend. i doubt most do that anymore. or ask them to pick up your mail, or water your plants... most, i suspect, barely know their neighbors anymore.

Catholic charities runs a "free" clinic. its not free for everyone, its based on income and its a sliding scale. and it already has a long waiting list. The Dr's and nurses donate their time. Religious groups take care of alot of the sick, elderly, mentally handicapped and homeless. They cant do it all.

We are losing our humanity. Times have changed drastically. To say you have no part in helping is to give up on humanity all together. And thats exactly what is happeninng. Health care has become a joke. Insurance comapnies figured out long ago how to rubber stamp things "denied" in order to make more money and force those they should have covered to fight for what they are entitled too. Many they know are either not savey enough to know, or those too poor. There was a post by Brain, i think, that showed Insurance CEO's living in houses that would have paid for the health care of 44 familes of four. Now, can someone, anyone, explain to me the humanity in that when they live as they do and agree to the rubber stamping of claims, risking the lives of people? is money worth all that?

i suppose to some it is, and those are the ones who have lost their humanity. they are so far removed from these people that those who have policies are just a number to them. i cannot think of a time that i did not rely upon someone else, either for education, training, moral support, ect. we dont live in a fish bowl. but, if we did, it would be alot cheaper, until someone figured out how to tax water changes.




Musicmystery -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/11/2009 1:41:58 PM)

quote:

why the fuck do I need $37,500 worth of insurance if I have $510,000 in the bank ?


Because you don't have enough to cover liability damages.




Termyn8or -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/12/2009 12:50:44 AM)

using FR

tazzy, I live in a different kind of neighborhod. You would have to be here to experience it. Everybody might not know everybody, but we know our immediate neighbors. When they have extra food they will hand it out. When they have extra time they might mow the grass for you or shovel your snow. When they ask for anything of me I will try to do it. My neighbor has keys to my shed, and keeps his mower in there. We have no need for a fence, in fact from my house all the way to the main road there are no fences. I wouldn't move for the world. Things will change I know, but it has been pretty good. Mostly owner occupied homes, better maintained than mine actually. I would be an idiot to leave this.

MM, the insurance company, at least in Ohio they are allowed to do this, retain all rights to handle any litigation. What that means is they can settle the case for a million dollars, pay the $37,500 and leave you holding the bag for the rest. I don't know how it is eveywhere, but read that policy carefully. You might not like what you see. Laws in different states are different, but really the low minimums basically might cover a fender bender. The limits are nowhere near to what medical costs could add up.

Insurance is a false sense of security, but it is all alot of people have. That is not the way it should be.

T




IrishMist -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/12/2009 11:08:22 AM)

Growing up, I and my friends had no privacy. My parents had no privacy. Everyone knew everyone, and everyone knew what everyone was doing, when they were doing it, how they were doing it...and their opinons on it.

I miss that kind of community...the kind that stuck their noses in everyone's business, and while it may have been offensive on the surface..deep down, it was known that in a pinch, it was neighbors that you depended on.

I had that kind of community in Texas. I have it again here ( the amish, while being standoffish and generally mind their own business; in a pinch...they are the ones that I would go to for help with something that was 'community' issue ).

Do I make sure they have food? Absolutly. Do they make sure we have food? Absolutly. We are constantly taking each other food...all in the guise of being neighborly of course.

Do they watch my house when we are gone? Absolutly. Do I keep an eye on things when they are gone? Absolutly. All without asking each other. That's what neighbors do.

However; it is not my place to force this on anyone. If they were to tell me to not do it, I would not do it. If I was to ask them to back off, they would back off.

As for insurance...well...I pay for my own insurance; it's not offered through where I work. I pay for mine, and I pay for the kids.( well only one kid now, but at one time it was 4 ) It's expensive; there is no getting around that. I could find cheaper insurance, but why would I want to sacrifice quality for cost?

It's not up to me to provide this for my neighbors. I provide mine, it's up to them to provide their own. If they go without; thats their choice...and don't try and say that its too expensive and some can't afford it...bullshit...if you want it, you would find a way to make it happen.




servantforuse -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/12/2009 1:29:06 PM)

The Obama administration will take care of everybody. They will take care of hralth care, the house you live in and the type of car you drive. I no longer have to worry about my neighbors welfare.




tazzygirl -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/12/2009 4:08:33 PM)

wow, i sure havent seen the bills proposed to have government take care of my housing and car. mind hooking me up with a link?




Esinn -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/12/2009 8:35:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Do I believe that we have a responsibility, as human beings, to do our best to assure that our neighbors have a decent standard of living? Yes, I think we do.


I would prefer people just learn to be responsable for themselves. I am firmly of the belief; I am not my brother's/sister's keeper. If I were, how would they learn?

Kim


LOL it sucks to be you.  Like it or not you bailed out banks and shortly Obama will pass some form of Universal Healthcare.  I think in Africa there still a few locations where every tribes person is for themselves.




stella41b -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/12/2009 9:39:36 PM)

I see the behaviours related in the OP but I refuse to write off people or individuals and have a very strong, unshakeable faith in human nature.

I'm of the view that no matter how bad, how sick or how depraved we judge someone to be and their actions there is a certain quality of life and that capacity to learn and the potential for human nature to triumph.

Even in the harshest and toughest prisons anywhere in the world if you care to look you will, always find evidence of human nature whether it be brotherhood among fellow inmates or mothers and families who continue to visit their loved ones in spite of the crimes they have committed.

I work with the homeless, including the street homeless and have been one of them myself, and it is here, at the lowest level of society where the evidence of humanity, responsibility and sense of community is often at its strongest. It is these people - human beings who have often been reduced to and are often perceived as no different from the cigarette butts and discarded fast food containers by a society of people who no longer care.

And 'care' to me is the crux of the matter when we look at society today and wonder where it is going wrong.

To me it's very evident where we have gone wrong and it's been my view ever since the definition of success was changed to making a profit and competitiveness was seen by many as better than the sense of community we appear to have lost. It is this competitiveness which further defined success as making a profit at all costs as many of us struggle to keep up with the rest and avoid and look down on those we perceive to be weaker or less competitive.

We have gone through a period of technological advances in the last 30 or so years which have completely revolutionized the way we live - everywhere from work, healthcare to the way we socialize, seek entertainment, form relationships and even maintain contact with our loved ones and families. The pace of life is much quicker, in some cases there's more distance and I'm sure we all know the feeling of wanting to do things with other people but either we don't have the time, the money, or the energy.

Basically many of us have stopped caring except when it is absolutely necessary, I'm sure many of us know this and are aware of this, but we find ourselves seeking excuses and justification for the way things have become. In fact sometimes I feel we have become a society of individuals inclined to blame society as a whole because it is much easier and requires much less effort than seeing yourself as part of the problem and also the start of the solution. All too often we see the solution as involving other people when it isn't always necessarily so.

Usually I feel we have been conditioned to compete with others through our lives and personal circumstances whether it be getting a job, holding down a job, not having a job, having debts, responsibilities etc and we have conditioned ourselves to fear such things as poverty, unemployment, debt, and other such adversity while looking down on others who we perceive not to be making as much effort as us, but is this really true?

You see no matter how much adversity we face life goes on. Go to the poorer districts of town and you will still see people doing pretty much what they do in the more affluent parts known as suburbia - taking care of their families, meeting their friends, living, loving, arguing, and getting through the day with not much difference in quality from that of their richer neighbours.

For the past few years every Christmas I have volunteered at the CRISIS Open Christmas which is a temporary night shelter run for the homeless over Christmas to ensure that those people who spent the rest of the year sleeping on the streets without even having a decent conversation with other people can have the chance to join the rest of us to have an enjoyable Christmas. I can still remember the first one in 2006 and I remember it clearly for one event which happened - a wedding which took place between Crystal and Tony who have spent years sleeping on the streets of Soho behind Piccadilly Circus where they met, fell in love, and formed their relationship. The wedding was attended by over a hundred guests - all street homeless - and it took place on Christmas Eve in front of a registrar brought in from the local borough to officiate the ceremony. There was food, something to drink, and everything else you would probably find at a high society wedding.

The above is but one example which has helped me form my view that while society may be different, just as every nation is different, regions and even individual cities people are pretty much the same and are living their lives with a similar quality to the rest of us.

All that is different are our circumstances, perspectives and inner nature. I feel it doesn't really take that much, nothing more than a change in our thinking and a bit of effort to translate that thinking into actions.

To me success is measured in the quality of life and how much you are able to appreciate that quality, and the quality of the work you do, the relationships and friendships you form, and everything else.

I think it was Gandhi who once said 'be the change you are seeking in society' and I feel that if we were to accept that human nature is inherently good and exists there in everyone and we take a little more time to care then it won't take long for you to be able to inspire change in others.

Just my 0.02c




cpK69 -> RE: Humanity? Responsibility? (8/13/2009 6:17:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn


LOL it sucks to be you.  Like it or not you bailed out banks and shortly Obama will pass some form of Universal Healthcare.  I think in Africa there still a few locations where every tribes person is for themselves.



LOL... shows what you know. Despite the fact I bust my ass for what I earn, I don't make enough to bail out the kitchen sink.

Why go to Africa when I can get that right here? Besides, 'my' people were here long before the 'white man'.

Kim




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