undergroundsea
Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
What percentage of women who engage in tribute do you think are single mothers?
Why do you think that you will earn Argument Points by aggressively re-stating the question that I first asked? If I already knew the answer to this, Sea, I wouldn't be wondering about it. What part of this do you NOT understand?
Here is the part of my post to which you refer.
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Several women have stated a number of motivations for financial domination in the course of this thread, including the sheer emotional-physical reaction that one might get from other D/S activities--receiving this sort of surrender arouses them, gives them a rush. The fact that you insist on ignoring the testimony of real people about their own feelings and motivations, in order to continually hammer what you BELIEVE they feel, is a problem in my opinion.
And that's my point. What percentage of women who engage in tribute do you think are single mothers? I doubt that is a significant contributor. That you point to other motivations aligns with this notion that women don't seek tribute because they are single mothers.
It seems you had not understood my point and I was restating it and clarifying. To answer your question about which part of it I don't understand, I don't understand why you were arguing against my point--that there are motivations other than being a single mother--by giving examples that support my point (that there are motivations other than being a single mother).
Here is what I went on to say immediately after the statement I quote above.
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: It was never an "argument". It was a question and a line of idle speculation.
Fair enough. I am content to say you pondered a question and I responded with what I thought to be the answer to that question during the course of intellectual discourse about the matter.
I laid to rest the matter. To use your words, which part of this do you NOT understand?
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End of story. Whether your "intuition" and "intellect" are "doubtful" about that reality or not, the fact is that more than half of the women who trade sex for money on the street are supporting at least one child alone by doing so. And yes, this is the case whether they "look like single moms" or not.
If it is the end of the story then you are writing a sequel. Similarly, if I have already clarified that I never pointed to an appearance, then why you are belaboring that point? To use your words, why do you think that you will earn Argument Points by aggressively re-stating a point that has already been clarified?
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The reality is that I posed a question that made you uncomfortable about your lack of empathy and tolerance for a group of people that you enjoy pouring your petty judgments upon in public.
Incorrect. The reality is you said the only power available to women is sexual power, which I disputed. You then tried to take attention to single mothers, and gender economics, which does not determine whether or not the only power available to women is sexual power. I addressed your diversion briefly and returned attention to your original statement, for which you said, oh well, you meant it was just a trend.
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You reacted by accusing me of political manipulation or outright lying to try and make women who you choose to castigate as Evil Whores seem "sympathetic".
You are attributing to me imagined statements about Evil Whores to achieve whatever agenda you have. When I have made judgmental comments, they have been based on personality traits such as exploiting others in a disrespectful way, or to act outside of consent--I have been clear about my position. If you think these comments equate to Evil Whores then it is you who is making that equivalence.
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If you had responded from the outset with a reasonable speculation like this one, rather than accusations of manipulation or "pulling things out of the air" etc, I might take your claim to reasoned debate more seriously. Unfortunately, people's first reactions are inevitably their most honest reactions, and yours were emotional.
Thank you for your compliment about my reasonable speculation.
My first reaction upon reading your theory was that I did not buy it. I still have that reaction. Any emotional response I had was specific to your evasive, offensive style of debating.
And the point you say I must have dug up later I, in fact, stated from the outset in my first post addressing the matter:
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ORIGINAL undergroundsea
I don't think one has to be a single parent to find it convenient to receive money.
That is conveying a similar idea in different words. One does not have to have pressing circumstances to seek tribute.
So, (1) your argument that if one states a point later rather than at the beginning it must be a lie is not true, (2) your claim to say so lacks grace (rather than acknowledging a point you dismiss it and say well you didn't say at the outset so you must be making it up), and (3) it does not apply in this situation.
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Greed is a common human trait.
So are petty narcissism and lack of empathy.
The views I have stated in this thread come from a place of fairmindedness, and views I would be comfortable to apply to myself, to someone I love, or to someone I dislike at either end of these views. I challenge you to explain differently for my views and claim the same for your views. The empathy references are also references you have picked up to deflect attention from the point that you made weak arguments that you were then not able to defend. When you cannot defend your arguments, you level attacks against the other person.
Second, I would like to quote your text from your last post:
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I do not consider it an "attack" to suggest an alternative view of the world or of relations between men and women. The fact that you seem to view my posts as attacks on you personally or on all malekind is rather disturbing, but not atypical.
I hope you realize that you can argue and rationalize your attacks however you like but people are seeing them for what they are. I see them to represent disrespect directed at other posters, lack of confidence in your argument, and a lack of self control.
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If you expect me to be impressed that you spoke to three whole women out of the millions that live in North America, and wow, gee, it just so happens that the three women who were willing to discuss their personal and professional lives with you in detail JUST HAPPENED to confirm all your biases and prejudices about economic and social realities for the entire gender?
I am indeed happy about my effort to broaden my perspective by talking to others. Most women do not have the jaded, bitter view you do about society and men. Thus, it is not the least bit incredulous that I spoke with three women who are successful professionals about what discrimination they have faced and their statements did not align with the reality you describe. You can mock or try to insinuate that this information is incorrect or fabricated, or you can learn something from these datapoints.
Second, I have said multiple times that I do not think there is one universal reality like you claim. Your statement is another example of where you make an incorrect absolute claim--that I am making a universal statement--that you are then not able to defend.
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Sea, that you are VERY unlikely to know any women personally who would substantially disagree with you or be able to tell you a different story than the one you want to hear. You are incapable of taking an unbiased sample--if you are really an engineer, your knowledge of the science of statistics should be sufficient that I should NOT have to tell you this.
I am comfortable in my ability to think logically and scientifically and find your argument to not make sense logically.
I recognized in my last post that my sample leans towards successful professionals. But it is a sample that contradicts the reality you paint. I asked you to help round out the sample with what you know, which you have minimally done. You have spent more time making incorrect assertions and in your attempts to smear.
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Thereafter female academic performance, especially in mathematics and sciences, steadily declines. Arguably, this is because the majority of males in our society are not socialized to be attracted to women who invest time and energy into their mental attributes, or in women who offer anything substantial in the way of personal achievements. Instead, men in our society are trained to respond to the appearance of a woman at the expense of all other considerations. Ergo, at the age when young heterosexual women start to become interested in attracting and enjoying mates, their minds begin to go fallow and their rates of success in the classes that eventually produce an engineer decline--their ability to send appropriate gender signals and their attention to their appearance sharply spike upwards.
To paraphrase your theory, as women become interested in attracting mates, they neglect school and to develop skills that allow academic success in order to focus only on appearance and being attractive.
There is not a dichotomy between being socially and physically attractive, and being intelligent and doing well in school. I disagree that a woman cannot be both attractive and succeed academically. I don't think academic success and social success are as disjoint as you make them out to be.
I admit that statistically there is an inverse relationship between getting good grades and strong social skills, which I attribute partially to which strengths have been developed and which not, and partially to how much time one spends in which area. However, this phenomenon is not gender specific. The concept of nerds applies to men also. In grade school, the jock or athelete image is celebrated, not the nerd image or the president of the chess club. And nerds come in both sexes.
Also, to say men don't find intelligence and personal achievements attractive is incorrect. I think your point has some merit but not enough to be a resilient explanation.
I think society does play a role. I think it is more along the lines of goal setting and support versus, as you say, to encourage women to focus on appearance at the expense of academics. I expect that the difference with women who studied engineering alongside me comes from (1) consistent aptitudes and interests, and (2) encouragement to pursue this field from parents and teachers, not because they rejected the idea of seeking to look attractive.
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Both male and female dominants are inclined to make sure their needs are met by their submissive partners in a D/S dynamic. The needs of a man are much less likely to be economic than they are to be sexual and domestic, in our society. But for some reason, sexual and domestic needs in a dominant are sacralized as "correct", while material resources and labor are often demonized as "incorrect" or "morally wrong" contributions from a submissive--not because there is any real harm associated with the fulfillment of these needs, but because they are not as common in men as they are in women, and only the dominant needs of men are "correct" and "ok".
I think your theory might have basis that economic need is more likely to create a wish to seek someone else to meet these needs. I bear in mind, however, not every domme seeks tribute and that most everyone would appreciate the convenience of receiving money or items. A focus on need overlooks the role of choice. The opposition one sees is not because it is counter to what occurs in Mf dynamics, but because (1) it is counter to what is generally considered appropriate or respectful in social relationships, and (2) it can come from ulterior motives more so than other activities.
Human behavior is usually a complex sum of multiple variables. I allow that need could be one variable. However, I think you overstate its role. If it rested so much on general or statistical economic need, would we not see the phenomenon more across ethnic men, same sex dynamics, and younger age ranges of men (how different are the economic needs and resources during college age across genders)?
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You hold a prejudice against women who want, need and honestly state their desire for a type of submission that does not appeal to you. Rather than accept that they are merely incompatible with you, you insist on characterizing them as immoral and harmful, when in many cases--and possibly the vast majority of cases--they are not.
Incorrect. I speak against those who seek the practice of tribute (1) without consent, or (2) in a manner that comes from disrespectful exploitation. I have been clear about my position and have stated it multiple times. You are making an incorrect assertion directed at my person as part of your debate style, and an assertion you would not be able to defend.
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You use the achievements of feminist activists to create a better world for women to claim that none of the problems of the Bad Old Days still exist, and that these problems do not have to be considered before making sweeping judgments of the entire gender.
Incorrect. I do not make this claim. I have said that change is still occurring but change has occurred and we are no longer in the 50s. Your statement above is another example of you making an incorrect absolute statement (as highlighted by your use of the word none in bold text) of the type which leads you to deflect attention to other matters when asked to defend your position.
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you see your material wealth as a power which you have earned without any social benefits or privileges associated with being the owner of a penis.
I do not claim to be wealthy. I do not see my success to obtain the engineering degree to come from my penis but from my hard work. I came to college with a goal to have a 4.0. I studied extensively. While my roommate and friends were partying, I was studying. And so I achieved my goal...until I turned 21 ;-)
You are correct that it would be difficult to prove it one way or the other looking at that datapoint alone, and to determine how much of my success came from my hard work and how much from my sex. However, other women graduated with me, became employed with me, and earned engineering wages with me. If what I completed came from my penis, and they completed the same, upon what did they rely?
Cheers,
Sea
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