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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 7:46:40 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I'll reference the President's position; citing the Post Office (a government entity) as a bad example of a similar service being provided by private sector entities such as UPS and FedEx.


The comparison is significant because the Post Office provides affordable service nationwide, including rural areas. This is crucial for several reasons (social security checks and income tax among them), especially when such a significant portion of the populace is poor and rural. If the Post Office were truly a business, it would stop servicing these areas, or charge significantly more. So...government steps in. The same/similar is true of natural monopoly services (utilities primarily).

For those who want/need the services UPS and FedEx offer, and who are willing and able to pay for those services, fantastic! Similarly, people willing and able can always purchase additional insurance. Someone, though, has to insure the "rural areas."

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 7:54:56 AM   
Sanity


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The lead story right now on the MSNBC website:

quote:

‘Exploding’ deficit plays into health reform

Any legislation needs to rein in federal spending, key lawmakers say

WASHINGTON - With polls showing rising concern over the government's grim financial situation, key Republicans and a growing number of Democrats say it will be hard to push an ambitious health reform bill through Congress unless it reduces projected federal spending on medical care and begins to bring the national debt under control.


"It's not good enough that it's just paid for; it actually has to start driving long-term costs down," said Sen. Mark Warner (D-Va.), one of nine freshman Democrats who last month urged Senate leaders to pay more attention to controlling federal health spending in this era of "exploding debt and deficits."


"The status quo is going to bankrupt the federal government and bankrupt most American families," Warner said.


(Full article here).



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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 8:02:22 AM   
Brain


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Palin Leaves Behind Mismanaged AK Health Care System - Hundreds Die Waiting For Care

Perhaps Sarah Palin made that ridiculous statement about "Obama Death Panels" because she knew this story was going to break -- it was happening in her own state, right under her nose.

State programs intended to help disabled and elderly Alaskans with daily life -- taking a bath, eating dinner, getting to the bathroom -- are so poorly managed, the state cannot assure the health and well-being of the people they are supposed to serve, a new federal review found.

The situation is so bad the federal government has forbidden the state to sign up new people until the state makes necessary improvements. No other state in the nation is under such a moratorium, according to a spokeswoman for the federal Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services.


Read Full Story at crooksandliars.com

http://crooksandliars.com/logan-murphy/sarah-palin-leaving-behind-mismanaged


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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 8:06:43 AM   
Brain


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THE SOLUTION to keep the deficit down is to move to a single-payer option. But of course right wing conservatives and Republicans who protect corporations don’t want single-payer because they want to keep making ridiculous profits.

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 8:12:46 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

If the Post Office were truly a business, it would stop servicing these areas, or charge significantly more.
I'll stipulate to you point if you stipulate to mine. The government can not ever expect to run a "business" at even a break even level self sustaining level. Why then would this Administration represent that any Health-care program won''t increase the ever bludgeoning deficit? It will require a never ending, always increasing, supply of tax money. All of it can not come from the top 10% of income earners.

I'll point to one sector of the economy the 18-30 year olds. They don't purchase health coverage now because they are healthy and don't feel they are getting any return on their 'investment'. Apply the tax cost to their income and they will have health coverage they don't use paying for it directly, with the MA plan, or with tax dollars spent to support it, either in the form of paying the interest on the deficit created or directly if a SS type payment structure is used. Why not disclose those and put that out as a talking point? From the health care industry, having this demographic segment required to buy their product would be a boom to their bottom line and a nice payoff for the PAC money they spent on the current batch of legislators.

In other words, why doesn't the Administration tell the truth?

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 8:25:52 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I'll point to one sector of the economy the 18-30 year olds. They don't purchase health coverage now because they are healthy and don't feel they are getting any return on their 'investment'. Apply the tax cost to their income and they will have health coverage they don't use paying for it directly, with the MA plan, or with tax dollars spent to support it, either in the form of paying the interest on the deficit created or directly if a SS type payment structure is used. Why not disclose those and put that out as a talking point? From the health care industry, having this demographic segment required to buy their product would be a boom to their bottom line and a nice payoff for the PAC money they spent on the current batch of legislators.


I completely agree that the common practice of describing government as a "business" is ill-applied. I use it only because it's so common, and hence the language that people commonly raise. I'm happy to dispense with it for this conversation.

I'm in complete agreement with the paragraph above, and it's one the the principle reasons we need legislation. 18-30 year olds would rarely buy auto insurance if they didn't have to, even though in that instance they have many of the claims. The whole point of a large pool is to have a large pool--just as social security.

Your final conclusions jump several steps, but I agree that trying to pay for this by taxing generous plans or additional taxes on high incomes is a pretty artificial way to fund it, and obviously politically a problem. I do think, though, that health care reform is going to have to be a case of pass something, then fix it (like the prescription drug plan). Otherwise, we won't get better--we'll get nothing, and the current situation is just not sustainable.

The down side, though, even though I agree, is that this extra SS style tax would be widely opposed as killing jobs. Look at the furor over the minimum wage increase.

And, unfortunately, it's business that's been providing health coverage, and while that's great as a benefit, business is ill-equipped to provide universal health care or to address the rapidly rising costs the current dysfunction helps create. I'd rather not see mandated coverage from businesses either.

Either way, some won't like it. But it has to be done, one way or another.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/14/2009 8:30:23 AM >

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 8:35:25 AM   
Archer


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What is I guess to be expected though is The OP stipulates What are the OTHER options to the plans proposed by the Democrats (Obama et al)

How long did it take to degenerate into a Pro Single payer vs an Anti Single payer system with what 2 or 3 actual suggestions about other ways the problem could be solved.


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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 8:39:01 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Otherwise, we won't get better--we'll get nothing, and the current situation is just not sustainable.


I have no problem stipulating to that as fact either.

The pragmatic solution we've pointed to in a few posts is obvious.

Require coverage - End of problem. Every employer has to provide it. Every self employed person must have it. The 10% unemployed, fall under Medicare. Not even a new concept; the auto insurance industry has used it for years. The 'assigned risk' pool substituted as the last resort which would fall under the Medicare solution. The concept doesn't require 1000 pages rhetoric subject to interpretation, or new government bureaucracy necessary. Adding those in the 18-30 demographic will lower costs to employers and individuals.

MM, there IS agenda in those 1000 pages. Some of it applies to the PAC campaign contributors, other parts apply to the goal of establishing the government as a source of all services provided. Neither serves the public in general.

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 8:40:11 AM   
Musicmystery


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I addressed this earlier, Archer.

Unfortunately, what should be done just isn't politically pragmatic. Is it then "better" to dream of undoable plans?

It "degenerates" because this process is by force of reality one of compromise, and so these are the options before us.

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 9:05:45 AM   
Brain


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Dennis Kucinich-HealthCare briefing in Washington, DC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWXRwrYa4oU

How to help

Become a part of the growing single payer movement

Visit PDA and CNA on the web

Support State Single-Payer initiatives at the national and state.level

Tell your congressional representative and Democratic Leaders in Congress to support the Kucinich amendment to HR 3200.

Tell your congressional representative to support HR 676

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 9:47:32 AM   
Mercnbeth


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Remember the "good old days" when the Democrats were saying how GREAT "disruptions" and "angry protests" were as part of the democratic process.

Whatever happened to this Democratic spokesperson and the policy she advocated in this video? HYPOCRITE

Oh yeah, she's speaker now and calls the disruptors "Nazis". (Shouldn't she be called for Godwin's Law or something?)


"Stop the Government Takeover Before It's Too Late" SIGN THE PETITION

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< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/14/2009 9:52:01 AM >

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 11:12:24 AM   
servantforuse


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During this August recess, Barbara Boxer, democrat, CA,  is refusing to hold a town hall meeting to discuss health care. She is however on tour promoting her new book. I guess if you want to talk to her, you'll have to buy the book...

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 6:00:36 PM   
Brain


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Obama denounces emphasis on health care protests

By LIZ SIDOTI, Associated Press Writer Liz Sidoti, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 16 mins ago

BELGRADE, Mont. – Trying to lower the temperature of the health care fight, President Barack Obama on Friday denounced news media emphasis on angry protesters at town-hall meetings.

Obama ventured west for the latest of his own town hall-style events, fielding polite but occasionally tough questions — one man declaring the president couldn't pay for his plan without raising taxes. Tieless and rolling up his sleeves in campaign mode, Obama pitched his overhaul plan to a crowd in an airport hangar near Bozeman.

The president didn't deny that there have been angry outbursts by foes of his plan at town halls featuring Democratic lawmakers this month. But he said that was hardly the whole story.

"TV loves a ruckus," Obama said. "What you haven't seen on TV and what makes me proud are the many constructive meetings going on all over the country."

While hundreds demonstrated outside, there was no sign of protesters on the airstrip where Air Force One landed or inside the hangar. Obama has another town hall Saturday in Grand Junction, Colo.

Friday's crowd, estimated by the White House at about 1,300 people, was mostly supportive, cheering Obama frequently, though he did get a few pointed questions. One came from Randy Rathie, who called himself "a proud NRA member," referring to the National Rifle Association, and said he got most of his news from cable TV.

"You can't tell us how you're going to pay for this," Rathie said of Obama's health care overhaul. "The only way you're going to get that money is raise our taxes."

"You are absolutely right," Obama said. "I can't cover another 46 million people for free. I can't do that. We're going to have to find money from somewhere."

He noted a congressional estimate that legislation being considered in the Senate could cost $800 billion to $900 billion over 10 years.

Obama has proposed higher taxes for families earning more than $250,000 a year. He said there were also other ways to find money, including streamlining the system and eliminating what he said were subsidies to insurance companies.
"But your point is well-taken," Obama said. "I appreciate your question and the respectful way you asked it."

Later, Rathie told CNN he was "well-impressed" with how Obama handled his question. "Now he's given me his word, personally, that he's not going to raise my taxes," Rathie said,
but at the same time, "they're trying to put in a program that they don't even understand."

Another participant, who said his job was selling health-insurance policies, asked Obama why he had changed his strategy from one of reaching out to insurance companies to "vilifying" them.

"My intent is not to vilify insurance companies," Obama said. "I say, 'Let's work with the existing system.'" But he said some bad practices of insurance companies "are tough on people" and "have to change," including such things as denying coverage for pre-existing conditions.

It's difficult, he said, to achieve true reform "unless we've got everybody covered."
The president kicked off a four-state Western push for his plan with a pointed joke: He said Montana has bears, moose and elk, and "in Washington, you just have mostly bull."

Minutes after Obama landed, a downpour began, making it difficult to hear inside the metal-roofed hangar. But the rain quickly let up. Tickets were distributed on a first-come, first-served basis to residents of Bozeman and Belgrade, with a limit of two to a family.

The president appeared ready to campaign. He showed up in a suit, but no tie. As he began to take questions, he took off his coat and rolled up his sleeves.

"I know there's been a lot of attention paid to some of the town hall meetings that are going on around the country, especially when tempers flare," Obama said.

He said that what wasn't being shown were the gatherings in which people "are coming together and having a civil, honest, often difficult conversation about how we can improve the system."


Obama aimed part of his pitch at Americans who already have health insurance.
"Most of us have insurance, and most of us think, knock on wood, and think: 'I'm going to stay healthy,'" Obama said.

He cited examples in which people have lost their insurance, including when going from job to job and because of pre-existing conditions.

Obama made his latest appearance as a prominent ally, John Podesta, said the high-decibel attacks are designed to destroy his presidency rather than merely defeat health care legislation.

At a breakfast with reporters in Washington, Podesta predicted such tactics would backfire on Republicans and give the president a chance to "capture the center of the debate."

Podesta, who heads the Center for American Progress and played a key role in last winter's presidential transition, said the time for bipartisan negotiations in the Senate is drawing to a close. When lawmakers return in September, he said, "either they have to have a deal or he (Obama) has to say, 'This is what it is.'"

There have been numerous missed deadlines. But the goal of Democratic leaders is to pass a health care bill in time for Obama to sign it this year.
Murtha said lawmakers are telling Pelosi not to rush passage.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090814/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 6:18:42 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Remember the "good old days" when the Democrats were saying how GREAT "disruptions" and "angry protests" were as part of the democratic process.

Whatever happened to this Democratic spokesperson and the policy she advocated in this video? HYPOCRITE

Oh yeah, she's speaker now and calls the disruptors "Nazis". (Shouldn't she be called for Godwin's Law or something?)


"Stop the Government Takeover Before It's Too Late" SIGN THE PETITION

Join the 1,111,182 who have already signed on!


Nope now it's at 1,113,375

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 7:28:30 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

"Stop the Government Takeover Before It's Too Late" SIGN THE PETITION

Join the 1,111,182 who have already signed on!


More blatant lies.

People will not be able to keep the insurance they have and instead be forced into a government system?

How many times does this need to be proven wrong?


10 Health Care Reform Myths - CBS News



Americans Will Lose Their Private Insurance

A prevalent conservative talking point is that the proposed government-sponsored health insurance plan, or "public option," could drive private insurers out of business and that millions of Americans would lose their current health insurance.


In a letter to the president in June, nine Senate Republicans from one of the committees responsible for health care said "forcing free market plans to compete with these government-run programs would create an unlevel playing field and inevitably doom true competition." The letter cites a study by the Lewin Group that shows that if Medicare payment levels were used in the public plan, premiums would be up to 30 percent less than premiums for comparable private coverage, potentially prompting more than 119 million people to switch from private to public insurance if the plan were open to everyone. The Republican letter characterized this shift in care as "119.1 million Americans losing their private coverage."


In fact, that figure represents Americans who would presumably change their plans voluntarily. The bill does not force private insurers out of business or force people onto the public plan.

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 9:37:56 PM   
Venatrix


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I grew up under the NHS and have nothing but good things to say about it.  Much better than living with this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-brutal-truth-about-americarsquos-healthcare-1772580.html

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 9:49:51 PM   
Brain


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Death Panels, Guns, & Health Care Town Hall Yell Meetings
Watch Video:

Jackie and Dunlap on the passionate give and take and polite dialogue between opponents of Obamacare and those who want to kill old people and sick babies.

http://www.redstateupdate.com/video/death-panels-guns-health-care

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 10:32:24 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

During this August recess, Barbara Boxer, democrat, CA,  is refusing to hold a town hall meeting to discuss health care. She is however on tour promoting her new book. I guess if you want to talk to her, you'll have to buy the book...


Just remember not to call her "ma'am" if you expect a personally autographed copy.

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In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/14/2009 10:39:44 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Every now and then I like to stop tearing things down and try to build them up, just for the change. Now the topic is health care. And the big question seems to be "Do we go with Obama's plan or leave things as they are?" Let's change that question: How would you (anyone, please) alter the current health care system in order to decrease costs, increase accessibility and generally stop the medical care finances from being controlled by HMO's who make more money denying care than providing it?

Can we come up with some GOOD ideas?


1) I would give up the notion that "every human being is a person, deserving of dignity and the right to a quality life".

2) I would make existence as a living being a privilege, not a right, and one you pay for.

3) If you fail to pay, we repossess your body. Then we sell you as an indentured servant, to work to pay off your life-debt. If that fails, whoever we sold you to has the right to harvest you for parts, to be sold to the highest bidders.

4) Let the Free Markets take their course.

If life is as precious as people say it is, let them pay top dollar for it.

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RE: Health Care: A Better Idea - 8/15/2009 1:58:58 AM   
Brain


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Vicious Lie: Small Businesses Side with Big Greed on Healthcare
OpEdNews

Original Content at
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Vicious-Lie--Small-Busine-by-Chaz-Valenza-090813-996.html

Words Will Never is a repository of the writing of a clinically depressed failure. He believes these words will never be published in their intended media as those avenues are controlled by fascist ass lickers who have never had an original idea in their lives and who continue to make a living by regurgitating the sanitized shit they ingest from those squatting above.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
August 14, 2009

Vicious Lie: Small Businesses Side with Big Greed on Healthcare
By Chaz Valenza

As a small business owner I am sick of being counted as on the side of Big Greed every time these behemoth corporations oppose policies that might pinch their profits, even the playing field, or give workers a fair wage for their labors.

I hate Big Greed, the bully corporations that borrow immense sums of money with no intent of repayment; the "too-big-to-fail" criminal enterprises that would make us all into surfs; and "economies-of-scale" low-price scams that shirk the real costs of their products onto people via deceitful means.

Regarding medical insurance reform, small businesses share no common ground with any of the Big Greed healthcare cartels: hospitals, doctors, pharmaceutical companies and, especially, the insurance companies. And, we would be idiots to side with our bigger corporate competition that can manipulate the current medical care crisis in their favor.

Small businesses currently pay through the nose for medical insurance. We are small groups. Ours is currently nine people from the age of newborn to fifty-five years old.

The average cost per year per person is $4,000 for coverage that excludes pre-existing conditions, hearing aids, certain hospital services (we won't know what these are until we get there), immunizations for travel or work, vision, fertility, contraception that doesn't come in the form of a pill, safe and legal abortion, dental care, which BTW is a big contributor to overall health or the lack there of, and who knows what else.

Our plan has a $2,000 per person deductible and up to a $5,000 annual out-of-pocket co-payment. We pay $60 per month for brand name prescriptions, $100 if we have a true emergency (?) and go to the emergency room, even over the weekend when our primary care physician is not available. And that ambulance ride? It better have been a necessity or it's not covered.

In other words, our middle-of-the-road, in network (HMO) plan is basically medical catastrophe insurance that will still bankruptcy us or our workers with a minimum cost of at least $9,000 every calendar year should the worst happen. None of us make over $50,000 per year. Do the math, if any of us have a medical catastrophe, we're sunk.

If the premiums on our policy continue their 15% per year increases, that's what they've been over the past three years, we will be at $6,000 per person by 2012, a 50% increase over this year. In just six years our medical insurance costs will double. Considering our business model and revenues, we will soon be catapulted off the medical insurance ship without a life preserver.

If you're a small business, less than 25 employees with an annual payroll of half a million dollars or less, you should be shouting down anyone and everyone standing in the way of health care reform (as that seems to be the only communications style that works in our current polarize us vs. Big Greed world). Small businesses, such as mine, will be exempt from any penalty for not providing insurance, and our insurance costs will most likely decrease. Hallelujah if they just stay where they are now and the coverage is the same or better.

Personally, I look forward to having everyone we employ covered by reasonably priced healthcare insurance, competition created from the current take-it-if-you-can-afford-it non-marketplace, and an everyone in the pool system that will spread the risk and cost.

Unlike Big Greed corporations, I face my employees every day I go to work with them. I value them. I see them as human beings, not payrolls to be slashed. I bet most businesses the size of mine feel the same way about their workers. We are tired of being exploited by the high costs and feeble coverage of the current non-system.

Here's my message to fellow small business owners, hardworking Americans, the main stream media, my representatives in Washington D.C. and President Obama:

Stop Assuming Small Business Sides with Corporate Big Greed.

And,

Stop Saying Small Business is Against Healthcare Reform.

The industry associations, even those we may belong to for very practical reasons, public relations campaigns, lobbyists and politicians that oppose healthcare reform don't speak for us, period!





Author's Website: www.WordsWillNever.com

Author's Bio: Chaz Valenza is writer and small business owner in New Jersey. He earned his MBA from New York University's Stern School of Business.


(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
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