RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?"

RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/18/2009 11:39:44 AM)
quote: Never said any such thing, Merc. No - you said this: quote: I didn't say time was the only hurdle Either it is or it isn't. If it isn't what are the other ones? You asked "If you have any case for withdrawing immediately, taking in consideration the consequences, I'd equally be curious." and I answered. Are you up for the same or need to again; considering this prior response quote: I don't have time for the game, Merc. You enjoy bail? Or is obfuscation your debate technique in lieu of any substance behind your opinion?

Musicmystery -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/18/2009 11:47:16 AM)
I said this, Merc. quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: I also wonder what happened to the very vocal anti-war factions that used to post regularly about how it all would be over if only the Democrats were in power and they had "their man" in the White House? ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Seven months, Merc. Even the Iraq plan discussed during the campaign was 18 months. And we knew we'd revisit Afghanistan. If it drags on, though, no doubt those voices will ring loudly again. Yes, the rest is you. Your citations are the followup to me calling you on it. Obfucation of my opinion? One thing happened. You asked a question. I speculated on an answer. If you don't agree with my speculation, if you think those voices are silent for different reasons, fine. If you'd like to make a case for it, fine. If you're really wondering why I'm not screaming, now you know. Welcome to my block list. Time waste over.

Brain -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/18/2009 11:53:25 AM)
U.S. Adviser’s Blunt Memo on Iraq: Time ‘to Go Home’ WASHINGTON — A senior American military adviser in Baghdad has concluded in an unusually blunt memo that Iraqi forces suffer from entrenched deficiencies but are now able to protect the Iraqi government, and that it is time “for the U.S. to declare victory and go home.” http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/world/middleeast/31adviser.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/18/2009 12:29:11 PM)
quote: If you'd like to make a case for it, fine. If you're really wondering why I'm not screaming, now you know. Obviously the case was made quite well or else you would have provided an alternative case or even a fact or two. Instead this... quote: Your citations are the followup to me calling you on it. Welcome to my block list. Time waste over. The cowardliness of your actions speaks much louder than any other answer you may have given. Thank you for providing an excellent example of the point made in the original post. quote: U.S. Adviser’s Blunt Memo on Iraq: Time ‘to Go Home’ WASHINGTON — A senior American military adviser in Baghdad has concluded in an unusually blunt memo that Iraqi forces suffer from entrenched deficiencies but are now able to protect the Iraqi government, and that it is time “for the U.S. to declare victory and go home.” http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/world/middleeast/31adviser.html?_r=1&th&emc=th Glad to see it Brain. Pity and a shame it isn't what the military leadership in Iraq or this Administration have in mind. Are you proposing there there will be a mutiny? From the same article quote: Those conclusions are not shared by the senior American commander in Iraq, Gen. Ray Odierno, and his recommendation for an accelerated troop withdrawal is at odds with the timetable approved by President Obama. Do you ever actually read all the way through any of the links you post, or just stop and quote as soon as you find something that generates a head bob?

Politesub53 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/18/2009 12:43:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: You talk about political bias, are you really suggesting all republicans were happy with the invasion of Iraq ? In case there is any doubt; my only political bias is my bias that neither political party represents the best interests of me as an individual or the US as a whole. quote: that the invasion of Afghanistan was valid As is the ongoing occupation, the deployment of 20,000 more troops, and the ongoing, as other put it, "murder of innocent locals"? Just want to be clear that meets your expectation for this Administration. quote: the current situation doesnt absolve Bush or Blair of their mistake. Perhaps this gets us to the crux of the matter. What I am most surprised is this Administration and Congress continuing with the policies that you reference as Bush or Blair "mistakes". They must disagree with your basic assessment that they were mistakes or else they would do something different. After all, who has the power or ability to stop them? The death toll in Afghanistan and Iraq, both civilian and military, is not a result of Bush or Blair mistakes, but of the conscience decision of this Administration and Congress to continue down the same path you consider a "mistake". Based upon the campaign rhetoric was it a mistake to think, and hope, that another different course of action would be forthcoming? The only change associated with those mistakes is the silence from those formally at the forefront of protest. I think that current situation deserves some scrutiny; if for no other reason, than to reference the hypocrisy of their position more associated with a political party and agenda versus the pragmatic results. I'll leave absolution to whatever particular deity claiming the ability. My point is that the extra troops in Afghanistan now, should have been there in the first place. I thought my post was clear enough that the mistake referred to was the invasion of Iraq. AFIK British and American troops have started to leave and hand over to the Iraqi security forces. President Obama could hardly pull them out the week he entered the White House.

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/18/2009 12:57:42 PM)
quote: My point is that the extra troops in Afghanistan now, should have been there in the first place. I thought my post was clear enough that the mistake referred to was the invasion of Iraq. AFIK British and American troops have started to leave and hand over to the Iraqi security forces. President Obama could hardly pull them out the week he entered the White House. My error Polite, sorry. You are in favor of Afghanistan occupation and the escalation under the current Administration. I don't share that opinion but respect yours. I also differ with your position concerning the current Iraq deployment, I think it could and should have been done as I've represented. However, it's also a matter of opinion. Glad to see you documenting that you feel this Administration and Congress is following a path you expected and are in agreement.

Politesub53 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/18/2009 4:06:44 PM)
Merc I am in the UK, but US politics affects us all. I am favour with the efforts in Afghanistan as Bin Laden and some of the Taliban are willing to use world wide terror. There was no clear cut evidence Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, or had WMD`s. I dont agree the regime change was the more pressing problem. With the Afghan elections taking place there is a need for security, and if the west hadnt walked away after the Russians left, Bin Laden would not have been able to use the country as a safe haven. One thing I am angry about is that Dostum (SP) hes been invited back into the fold despite being suspected of war crimes.

Loki45 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/18/2009 6:28:26 PM)
quote: Original: Mercnbeth Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today? Well, since Obama doesn't routinely handle weapons or face off against our troops overseas, I'd think he's killed zero. However, considering your apparent desire to blame war deaths on our president, I'd wager that, by that logic, he's killed far less than past presidents. Funny, I don't recall lots of this type of sentiment on December 8th, 1941, nor any date from then to 1945. If you are going to blame troop deaths on Obama, then you also have to blame them on their commanders and even the parents who sent those "kids" off to join the service instead of paying for their college.

elegantcdgoddess -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/19/2009 9:38:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth your position that the attack of the World Trade Center originated from there is, if nothing else, unique. Oh silly me, keep forgetting that we are in Afghanistan and Iraq looking for bin Laden. I am confused now, are we bringing democracy for those poor people, or are we trying to find that guy who is hiding in Pakistan?

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/19/2009 10:14:35 AM)
quote: Well, since Obama doesn't routinely handle weapons or face off against our troops overseas, I'd think he's killed zero. Same as the prior Administration then? Are you familiar with the term "Commander & Chief" and know its implications when applied to the President? Appreciating the "The Buck Stopped At the Prior Administration" attempt; consistent with current party in power. You must be an advocate? quote: ORIGINAL: elegantcdgoddess quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth your position that the attack of the World Trade Center originated from there is, if nothing else, unique. Oh silly me, keep forgetting that we are in Afghanistan and Iraq looking for bin Laden. I am confused now, are we bringing democracy for those poor people, or are we trying to find that guy who is hiding in Pakistan? I don't think you are "silly" at all! The people being killed are wondering the same thing. I think these are excellent question for the Administration to answer since they control the deployment, funding, and any search effort.

elegantcdgoddess -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/19/2009 3:17:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: elegantcdgoddess quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth your position that the attack of the World Trade Center originated from there is, if nothing else, unique. Oh silly me, keep forgetting that we are in Afghanistan and Iraq looking for bin Laden. I am confused now, are we bringing democracy for those poor people, or are we trying to find that guy who is hiding in Pakistan? I don't think you are "silly" at all! The people being killed are wondering the same thing. I think these are excellent question for the Administration to answer since they control the deployment, funding, and any search effort. Do you honestly thing someone from the Administration will just pop on national TV with the message. "..hmm... well.... dubya lied, it was for oil and his ego, his vp wanted to get filthy rich before another by-pass surgery, sorry guys, little fuckup. Keep the moral high, and God Bless America..." I dont think any leader of any country will do such.

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/19/2009 3:54:27 PM)
quote: Do you honestly thing someone from the Administration will just pop on national TV with the message. "..hmm... well.... dubya lied, it was for oil and his ego, his vp wanted to get filthy rich before another by-pass surgery, sorry guys, little fuckup. Keep the moral high, and God Bless America..." I dont think any leader of any country will do such. Silly me then - I thought that was a reason we elected them and apply the term "leader". You must be part of that group smart enough to realize that 'CHANGE!' was only campaign rhetoric, and leadership, and leading, are exclusive traits of those directing the PACs and other special interest groups who fund the campaign.

Starbuck09 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/19/2009 4:00:33 PM)
Mercnbeth have you always been against the middle eastern campaigns?

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/19/2009 4:18:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 Mercnbeth have you always been against the middle eastern campaigns? No. I've always been against waste, hypocrisy, and misuse of resources, especially US military personnel on the ground for indefinite periods of time. I'm sure if you go over every middle east campaign for the past 8,000 years of recorded wars between the people living in the area and/or attacking and occupying it; there would be a few campaigns I'd be 'for'. There have been countless 'wars' in the middle east. These people have been killing each other as far back as Cain realizing and not liking the idea that he wasn't an only child. I remember being in favor of sending David after Goliath; figured it would make for an interesting PPV. Rome v. Egypt - I took Rome and gave the points. (Figured Cleopatra would create an incentive for Caesar to pile on.) Allies against Rommel - For! Didn't care for the '8 day' War - too one sided. Any more obtuse questions?

Starbuck09 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/19/2009 4:23:23 PM)
It's not an obtuse question I was talking about the current military operations I thought that was obvious. Clearly it wasn't but there is no need to be rude.

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/19/2009 4:44:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 It's not an obtuse question I was talking about the current military operations I thought that was obvious. Clearly it wasn't but there is no need to be rude. I am against all current military operations and have been since their inception. However, I would consider the inception date debatable. I don't think I was too far off when referencing 'Cain v. Able'. Which is the primary reasoning behind that position. The time periods when some faction in the middle east was not at war with another, or there was 'peace' in the middle east, would cover a much smaller period of time. If the periods considered exclude times under an Emperor, Dictator, King, or some other iron fisted rule; a historical reference of peace in the region would be non-existent. Begs the question why this Administration, the last, or any, would take it on as a project spending, and wasting, personnel and resources. Simple answer - they are in it to pay back the people who paid for the campaign to have them elected. Sorry for being rude, but the "always" reference in your original question covers a very long time.

Starbuck09 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/19/2009 4:59:17 PM)
No worries Mercnbeth I should have been clearer. The middle east has been at war in some form or another for a very long time indeed but to be perfectly fair so has the rest of the world there is not a continent that has not been the subject of endemic warfare for centuries. The only exception to that is the west in recent terms and even then wetend to just keep the war out of our back garden and on somebodies front lawn. I think the reason we're in iraq is oil which considering it's the lifeblood of our respective countries is fair enough and Afghanistan for long term security. I think both those are viable reasons for the commitment. however Obama did campaign for change and certainly gave the impression that he would be pulling out quickly of Iraq. I think that was wrong as it always is when a politician campaigns on military decisions to gain votes rather than what is actually the best course of action.

Loki45 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/19/2009 5:00:14 PM)
quote: Original: Mercnbeth Appreciating the "The Buck Stopped At the Prior Administration" attempt; consistent with current party in power. You must be an advocate? This has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I made no mention of "the prior administration" whatsoever. My point was that we are at war and it is a war our "current" President vowed to finish. And he's doing just that. The other point I made was that if you insist on blaming WAR causlties on the president, you must also blame the commanders in the field and even the parents who sent their "kids" off to the military. We are at war. Casualties happen in war. Perhaps you would prefer that we just abruptly leave and let those who hate us have all the free time they need to once again bring that fight to our doorstep? (Since your "prefered" option of nuking them will never come to pass (much to my own chagrin). So to more clearly answer the assinine question in this thread's topic; the answer is none. The president sends troops to do a job, just like any president does in a time of war. Our enemies are the ones doing the killing. If you truly want someone to "blame" for military casualties, try the American people who would absolutely freak out if we dealt with our current enemies the way Truman would have. This country lost its nerve to fight to win long ago. When that's gone, your own casualties are sure to climb.

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/19/2009 5:14:55 PM)
[This has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I made no mention of "the prior administration" whatsoever.]Since you made a representation of this Administration quote: since Obama doesn't routinely handle weapons or face off against our troops overseas, I'd think he's killed zero. if we are going to have a debate its best to put all Administrations who initiated or maintain a military presence on equal terms. quote: Perhaps you would prefer that we just abruptly leave and let those who hate us have all the free time they need to once again bring that fight to our doorstep? Yes. quote: If you truly want someone to "blame" for military casualties, try the American people who would absolutely freak out if we dealt with our current enemies the way Truman would have I always considered "blame" the function of insurance companies and thought it a waste of time, but okay- if blaming the American people works for you, go for it. A majority of them voted for this Administration so you have a strong argument. quote: to more clearly answer the assinine question in this thread's topic; the answer is none. The president sends troops to do a job, just like any president does in a time of war. Our enemies are the ones doing the killing. Suicide bombers notwithstanding, I think both sides have real bullets and bombs in their weapons which kill. I don't know how you can blame the parents because I don't think anyone currently in the US Military is there as a result of a parent signing the enlistment papers. Do you know of some secrete US 'childens' battle division? Ultimately if you take your "commanders in the field" up to the pragmatic top "commander" - you'll come to realize the where to associate the 'ass'ine postings to this thread.

Loki45 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/19/2009 5:40:13 PM)
quote: Original: Mercnbeth Since you made a representation of this Administration quote:since Obama doesn't routinely handle weapons or face off against our troops overseas, I'd think he's killed zero. if we are going to have a debate its best to put all Administrations who initiated or maintain a military presence on equal terms. I agree. I never heard anyone blaming Roosevelt for killing our troops by entering WWII, did you? quote: Original: Mercnbeth Yes. Wow. This is s reply I didn't expect. Why do you prefer that our enemies murder our civilians rather than sending our troops to stop them? quote: Original: Mercnbeth I always considered "blame" the function of insurance companies and thought it a waste of time Then why are you blaming the president by asking how many kids he's killed? quote: Original: Mercnbeth Suicide bombers notwithstanding, I think both sides have real bullets and bombs in their weapons which kill. None of which are being wielded by the President. quote: Original: Mercnbeth I don't know how you can blame the parents because I don't think anyone currently in the US Military is there as a result of a parent signing the enlistment papers. No, however due to the numbers of people who enlist for college benefits, one could speculate that if their parents paid for them to attend college, they'd never have enlisted in the first place. quote: Original: Mercnbeth Ultimately if you take your "commanders in the field" up to the pragmatic top "commander" - you'll come to realize the where to associate the 'ass'ine postings to this thread. Oh trust me, I am well aware of which posts are assinine. Using your logic, I go right to the top - the OP.

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