Threats (Full Version)

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BitaTruble -> Threats (8/15/2009 5:10:16 AM)

Disclaimer - I'm starting this thread within the context of consensual BDSM, not threats such as one might receive during an armed robbery or something where X factors could come into play.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction to threats and it's in my nature to test a threat with a "Do it, then."

To me, when a threat is made and not followed through, the person who made the threat loses credibility and loses any opportunity to threaten in the future because I'm just not going to believe it.

I don't comply because of threats or the fear that such a threat will be carried out. All Himself has to do is tell me to do something and I'll do it. There is no need to threaten me.

That said, if my judgement of someone's character were poor, that 'do it' knee-jerk reaction might get me into a bitatruble one day but them's the risks.

I think that risk is quite small though for two reasons. If someone is actually going to carry out a threat, there's really no need to threaten in the first place.. they'd just do it. Second, for a threat to be effective there has to be a fear of the threat and a belief the threat will be carried out.

In other words, threatening me with a spanking isn't going to instill the fear of God into me, yanno? That threat fails the fear test.

But let's say someone threatened to cut off my nipple. Okay, I really don't want my nipple cut off. I'm very fond of my nipples and I've had them for a long time. So, the fear factor would come into play with that threat .. but then, I also have to 'believe' the threat will be carried out and I just think most people are too squicked by that amount of blood, or by actually performing an amputation to do it, so the threat is abated because of my disbelief in actual follow through. Again, that threat would be ineffective.

In a nutshell I think threats are bullshit wrapped up in butchers paper to abate the smell and I call bullshit when I see bullshit.

So, how do you see threats? How do you react to them? If someone failed to follow through on a threat, would they lose credibility with you? Does the fear of follow through on a given threat motivate you to comply to whatever you were told to do which garnered a threat being uttered in the first place?



sirsholly -> RE: Threats (8/15/2009 5:20:29 AM)

quote:

So, how do you see threats? How do you react to them? If someone failed to follow through on a threat, would they lose credibility with you? Does the fear of follow through on a given threat motivate you to comply to whatever you were told to do which garnered a threat being uttered in the first place?
i react very poorly to threats, seeing them as a form of manipulation. If someone wants me to do something, just ask and if it is within my power and legal/moral, i will try to comply. The fear of follow-through really is not a factor, as the threat will not be honored by me in the first place.

As to someone making a threat and not rescinding and then not following through...i see them as a manipulator who ATTEMPTED to in some way use his power/status in his favor. If i had any respect for him to begin with, it would then be lost. If it was a Dom/Master i would feel he permitted his sub to get the upper hand.



LillyoftheVally -> RE: Threats (8/15/2009 5:27:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

So, how do you see threats? How do you react to them? If someone failed to follow through on a threat, would they lose credibility with you? Does the fear of follow through on a given threat motivate you to comply to whatever you were told to do which garnered a threat being uttered in the first place?




Generally I am like you, often I see threats as a little pointless. It all becomes a bit of a game 'dont do that or ill ...' rather than doing ... then saying right so now you know not to do that again



agirl -> RE: Threats (8/15/2009 6:24:48 AM)

It depends entirely on who's threatening what.

A threat is a statement of intent. It will mean little to me unless there's a real reason to believe it would be carried out.

A threat doesn't have to carry any real fear for me to fall in line. It only has to be something unpleasant that I don't wish to happen at that time. Other times, I've been willing to take the consequences of ignoring the *threat*, because what I wanted to do seemed worth it at the time.

If a threat is just that, a *threat* .....and has no resulting action.........it becomes hot air. Most parents work that out. As VERY small children we work it out.

It's not a FEAR of follow-through that makes me comply .....it's the CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE that it WILL occur. I'm not afraid of consequences, to be perfectly honest ........I've always been far more afraid of NO consequences.

agirl













DesFIP -> RE: Threats (8/15/2009 8:50:48 AM)

Threatening is manipulation and will put my back up. You want me to do something not usual in the relationship, then explain what it is, allow me to decide if it will violate my moral/ethical codes, and if not be prepared to teach me how to do this. And don't expect me to be able to do it first thing.

He will threaten playfully but that's all. If I poke him, I get a lifted brow and asked "Do you really want me to tickle/spank you" in return. But that as much tells me about his mood as anything else because I've been known to say "Yes please".



lovingpet -> RE: Threats (8/15/2009 9:12:29 AM)

There is both a wide difference and a fine line, however between threats and a reminder of the consequences of one's actions. Threats don't do a thing for me. A stranger has no right over me to be demanding something in the first place and the threat is only further evidence of that fact. A threat is needed when power is insufficient to begin with. A lack of power leads to insecurity and, in this case, ultimately to threats to try to bolster a faultering position.

If someone does have that power, that control, over me, I know full well that when he speaks, I am to obey. There is no doubt, questions, or argument about it. No threats are needed. If I have been asked to do something distasteful or difficult, I can be reminded of the expectations and the results of not meeting those expectations that are already in place. That is not a threat. That is a consequence based on prior agreement and, perhaps, prior history. I know I can count on x happening as a result of doing or not doing y. If I can't, then I become lost and do not feel secure in the relationship. In other words, if I do not receive the consequences for my responses, then those consequences have now been relegated to mere idle threats and are no longer effective. My trust in the control my partner has over me is shaken and may or may not be possible to regain. I am not looking for a way around my obligations, but if I find one, I am not able to pretend like it isn't there. He will either have to close the gap, or cease to be in a dominant position over me.

I do like to HEAR threats from others, however. Strange as it sounds, when people sit and chat with me about all the things they are going to do to me one day, it gets me all revved up. Promises, promises I tell them, but it is fun just to go on the mental journey with them, knowing full well it isn't happening....not so long as a certain somebody has anything to say about it and so long as my consent is sitll a prerequisite. A person can threaten all they want, but only one person can claim that they are REAL consequences.

lovingpet



catize -> RE: Threats (8/15/2009 1:19:33 PM)

quote:

 So, how do you see threats?

I see threats as a sign that the dominant has already lost the power/control in the relationship.

quote:

  How do you react to them?

In essence, I withdraw my consent.


quote:

  If someone failed to follow through on a threat, would they lose credibility with you?

They’ve already lost credibility by issuing the threat (see above).


quote:

  Does the fear of follow through on a given threat motivate you to comply to whatever you were told to do which garnered a threat being uttered in the first place?

My submission is an internal drive, not externally motivated.
If I have to be threatened into submission then neither one of us is ‘getting’ what it is all about. 





leadership527 -> RE: Threats (8/15/2009 1:39:20 PM)

quote:

In a nutshell I think threats are bullshit wrapped up in butchers paper to abate the smell and I call bullshit when I see bullshit.

Which is exactly why I don't bluff... ever. If I say something, it's pretty much a given that what I am stating is my intended course of action should thing x happen. Sometimes those intended courses change... I'm a big believer in keeping my eye on actual reality as opposed to whatever my theory was. But at least when I said it, it was intended as a statement of fact. Carol knows this about me which really cuts through a lot of baloney. There's no need for her to test my resolve because she already knows the answer.

I think the problem in this post though is how do you separate out statement of fact from an empty bluff before-hand and without knowing the person well? I agree, empty bluffs are just posturing, but how do you know?



CaringandReal -> RE: Threats (8/15/2009 2:31:17 PM)

I think threats have a place in certain situations.

For example: New relationship. Extreme relationship (master-slave total/absolute). Still getting to know one another, not committed. Potential slave asks potential master, what would you do if I did... (fill in your blank, but I'm thinking of something extremely disrespectful, disobedient, something that would push well past the limits in which he wants her to behave). Potential master replies: I will perform this painful, servere punishment (he names something he know hurts bad and that the potential slave is also frightened of). Potential slave considers and asks, "well what if I just did... (again fill in the blank with something, less serious than the first thing, perhaps not direct disbedience but still serious pushing of his boundaries for her.) Potential master replies by listing another servere punishment. In this situation the threat to these things if she does what she asked about is a deterrent. The master doesn't want the new slave messing around with the boundaries in this way, and so he tells her in clear terms he'd respond immediately and punitively if she did her X or Y. She asked him the questions in the first place. He answered honestly (assume in this case the dominant's got followthrough and will do what he said if she does what she asked about). This situation involves a threat, but is it manipulation? I tend to see it as crystal clear communication. Or perhaps the master might also respond with, "try it and see what happens." If he said this in the right way, it could also be percieved as a threat, but again, the message is clear: "your actions have consequences." So, all personal sensitivities aside, is communicating that message a manipulation?

(To me almost everything a dominant does in these sorts of relationships is a manipulation, but I don't see anything wrong with that. It's what both parties want. There are a lot worse things in life than a one-sided manipulation consciously agreed to by both parties.)



BitaTruble -> RE: Threats (8/15/2009 5:45:17 PM)

quote:

I think the problem in this post though is how do you separate out statement of fact from an empty bluff before-hand and without knowing the person well? I agree, empty bluffs are just posturing, but how do you know?


Leadership, you have C-mail.



barelynangel -> RE: Threats (8/15/2009 6:22:42 PM)

quote:

If a threat is just that, a *threat* .....and has no resulting action.........it becomes hot air. Most parents work that out. As VERY small children we work it out.


Not to derail but NO FREAKIN KIDDING!  Its really sad when you threaten two twin lil boys that you are gonna beat their little behinds and instead of being instantly worried they desolve into giggles and their father laughs and says well that went over well. 



littlewonder -> RE: Threats (8/15/2009 6:52:27 PM)

Threats from complete strangers I tend to ignore.

Master however....he hasn't really made threats. He has made statements that maybe one day he may do something or other and I know to always be on the alert for the possibility because I would never put anything past him.

I can't imagine ever being with someone that would make a threat to me. I just can't see it being conducive to a good relationship imo.



Zechriel -> RE: Threats (8/16/2009 5:23:05 AM)

Good morning!
  Your post is how I feel as is a few others have said..."Back it up then!" It just raises that primitive, internal fight response...and Master and I have had a couple of primitive feral wrestling bouts. He tried all his old cop moves and from my gang/abusive boyfriends/security days, all my counters-including growling and snapping. What a workout! But I think it is not just the threat (b/c like you said, most will not back it up thus proving themselves ineffective against us) but the notion that the person issuing the threat really COULd do it if they wanted to. Not all people have it in their nature to be cruel or mean or sadistic, but maybe someone like Daddy -when really getting into a heavy playtime-changes into Master (and I see it in his eyes), I know anything is possible. He could very well reach deep inside and pull out his sadistic side. It scares me a bit when it happens, yet there's a thrill  deep inside me knowing that it is always there, even when we are just talking or watching tv. People may see a mild, older, gentle man but I know that deep inside is a part of him that only I get to see and that he shares with only me.  YUMMYY!!! Good luck!
Love,
Zechriel [sm=seesaw.gif]



DarkSteven -> RE: Threats (8/16/2009 7:53:04 AM)

If it's agreed that I have the right and means to discipline, then making threats is pointless.  If I don't, then it's even more pointless.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Threats (8/16/2009 8:34:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble



In a nutshell I think threats are bullshit wrapped up in butchers paper to abate the smell and I call bullshit when I see bullshit.

So, how do you see threats? How do you react to them? If someone failed to follow through on a threat, would they lose credibility with you? Does the fear of follow through on a given threat motivate you to comply to whatever you were told to do which garnered a threat being uttered in the first place?



hi Bita. i can certainly see how based on experience one could come to the conclusion that most threats are empty and therefore have no fear of those who make them. however in my own life i have had threats made to me and then carried out. you mentioned if a person was of the mindset to carry out a threat, then why would they bother making a threat in the first place. well, there are many possible reasons for that. one could be that they only wish to follow through with their threat as a last resort, they would rather take the simpler and less messy route of you simply doing as ordered. my Master threatens me when he wants to ensure that i will follow through with a command precisely the right way. it's not that i would disobey him otherwise...he knows i am very obedient. but with a threat the fear level is intensified tenfold, it heightens my alertness and attention to detail, and it reminds me that no matter how much i am loved or how good a slave i am, i can still slip up and face terrible consequences if i do.

so i guess you could say threats work on me, coming from individuals who i know do not make empty threats. the fear they cause motivates me to do well, and at the same time keeps me small and powerless.




daddysliloneds -> RE: Threats (8/16/2009 8:58:08 AM)

if you make a threat and don't follow through then your words mean nothing to me and the threat is shrugged off as nothing more than an empty promise...

up until about a month ago, i was seeing the same dominant man for three years; he would always tell me what he was going to do to me next time i saw him; everytime i responded with, 'is that a threat or a promise', which i found out later is what made him confused about our relationship. i was anxiously anticipating him to carry through with all those threats, which he didn't because he felt i was afraid of him and him doing such things, which really has/had me confused, because to me, it was my way of saying, 'please follow through'.



lizi -> RE: Threats (8/16/2009 10:24:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

So, how do you see threats? How do you react to them? If someone failed to follow through on a threat, would they lose credibility with you? Does the fear of follow through on a given threat motivate you to comply to whatever you were told to do which garnered a threat being uttered in the first place?
i react very poorly to threats, seeing them as a form of manipulation. If someone wants me to do something, just ask and if it is within my power and legal/moral, i will try to comply. The fear of follow-through really is not a factor, as the threat will not be honored by me in the first place.

As to someone making a threat and not rescinding and then not following through...i see them as a manipulator who ATTEMPTED to in some way use his power/status in his favor. If i had any respect for him to begin with, it would then be lost. If it was a Dom/Master i would feel he permitted his sub to get the upper hand.



I'd have to agree with this. First of all I like to comply with any and all requests that are made of me. It's how I am and I enjoy it. I like life smooth, pleasant, and easy. If I get a threat instead of a request I tend to react in a 'go ahead and do it' manner. As Zechriel mentioned it's almost a primal impulse that takes over and before I can think it through I have my back up.

This also happens when someone pushes me in a subject I've already thought through. If I've not considered a thing I will, but then if I make a decision I'll stand by it- pushing me isn't going to accomplish anything except pissing me off. Talking with me and discussing things with me may accomplish much, but pushing me makes me feel very stubborn and ultimately I'll walk away.



DarkSteven -> RE: Threats (8/16/2009 11:56:51 AM)

I remembered a time when I DID use a threat.  It was in my marriage, which was vanilla.  My ex had changed her behaviors to some that I did not like.  I sat her down, told her what they were and that I didn't like them, and told her that they needed to change.I then asked her what I needed to do to help her make those changes.  When she didn't take me seriously, I had to sit her down again, and explain that the marriage would not survive if those changes were not made.

They weren't and it didn't.

So I suppose that my answer is that I will use threats when it is needed to explain that a behavior is serious enough to endanger the relationship.



kiwisub12 -> RE: Threats (8/16/2009 12:16:54 PM)

This is why knife play and wax play don't do anything for me. It would seem that the exciting part of knife play and wax play is that if something were to happen the sub would end up sliced up or burnt.   In other words - the treat of being hurt.

Since i implicitly trust my Sir, i know he won't cut or burn me, so there is very little excitement in the activities. *sigh* It does seem that it should be quite exciting, but pointless if there is to be no blood or pain.  For me it is just sensuous foreplay.



ChainedExistence -> RE: Threats (8/16/2009 1:00:27 PM)

Ever watch a movie where the plot was beyond plausibility, but you find yourself carried along anyway? A threat in the right context is just hot, because you CAN believe it would be carried out, whether or not it actually would. It's sort of a Russian roulette mentality-maybe this time he WILL or maybe he won't, but do I really want to take the chance that he MIGHT? It's that suspended disbelief that makes a lot of what you can play with on a fear level so enticing. You play along in the moment because it feels absolutely possible.



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