RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (Full Version)

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ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 9:33:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Don't try and make me the environmental bad guy, Panda.  I'm just telling it like it is.  Even if we completely stopped using petroleum for energy tomorrow, we are still going to need the petro-chemicals for all sorts of things.  Scenery isn't going to keep us from getting what we need, and there are a number of ways to extract the oil.




I'm not trying to make you any kind of a bad guy, Rich. I only bring it up because you're the one who said the environmental problems weren't going to stop us.

Yes, I know we need oil for many more things than fuel, but the more oil we burn the less we have for those other uses. The less we burn (and therefore, the sooner we move to alternative sources), the less we need to extract from the Green River shale formations. And as for other ways to extract it, if you know of some easier ways than I'm aware of it, I'd sure be interested in hearing about it. Because as far as i know, right now there is no easy or cheap or non-destructive way to get it out of the rock and into the tank.



TheHeretic -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 9:33:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

.... and there are a number of ways to extract the oil.




Which I'm certain you are going to enlighten us on shortly. 

Right?




Do your own homework, RML. Apply a little creative, out-of-the-box reasoning to what you find. I have enough to deal with today, trying to get a Gorean elected.



Musicmystery -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 9:42:09 AM)

[:D]



rulemylife -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 9:55:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

.... and there are a number of ways to extract the oil.




Which I'm certain you are going to enlighten us on shortly. 

Right?




Do your own homework, RML. Apply a little creative, out-of-the-box reasoning to what you find. I have enough to deal with today, trying to get a Gorean elected.


Oh, I have Heretic.

But I didn't make a claim without substantiation, you did.

And as always, when someone calls you on it you go into your usual evasive tactics.



TheHeretic -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 10:07:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
And as always, when someone calls you on it you go into your usual evasive tactics.



There is nothing evasive in not being interested in wasting my time, RML (as if any time spent puttering here wasn't wasted anyway).  We've done this sort of crap before.  If you don't want there to be an answer, you are never going to see one.  You just want me throw targets for you to snark at. 




rulemylife -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 10:21:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

There is nothing evasive in not being interested in wasting my time, RML (as if any time spent puttering here wasn't wasted anyway).  We've done this sort of crap before.  If you don't want there to be an answer, you are never going to see one.  You just want me throw targets for you to snark at. 



I don't know..........let's review.

You said this:

".....and there are a number of ways to extract the oil."

And I asked this:


"Which I'm certain you are going to enlighten us on shortly. 

Right? "

Now, when I make a claim, especially a controversial one, I back it with facts.

When I make a claim I think is well understood but is then questioned, I also back it it with facts once it has been questioned.

That's all I'm asking you to do.

You said "there are a number of ways to extract the oil", implying, in the context of the discussion, that there were more economical ways of doing so, but you failed to tell us what those were.

So how is that not a fair question to ask of you, to document your claim?



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 10:35:37 AM)

Maybe someone could enlighten me. See, if changing to greener manufacturing methods and more fuel-efficient practices caused the loss of jobs on ONE end of the economy, isn't it also true that developing new technology and increasing manufacturing of the new green equipment and infrastructure would -add- jobs just as quickly? Sure, PollutionMaker Industries would lose, say, 50% of their employees because of new pollution control measures -- but NewPollutionControlTechnology Industries would have to hire maybe 200% more employees just to stay on top of manufacturing requirements... or at least that's how it's always seemed to me, watching the rise and fall of industries.

Also, aside from greed and selfishness, what -benefit- do we see from NOT taking care of the planet that we live on? I mean, really, if we're going to destroy it, nobody will get to use it, and eventually it will all crash down on our heads, right.

Now my father was a conservative man, and my mother was very frugal, and I was always taught that it is better to take -care- of something, and use one's resources -wisely- than to waste and worry later. I consider environmental practices in that same light -- it makes good, common, conservative, frugal -sense- to take care of our resources, and to husband them as efficiently as we can manage, so WHAT, may I ask, is the point of all the ranting and rhetoric -encouraging- waste and destruction just because we CAN?

Truly -- explain this to me in small, one-syllable words, because so far, I just don't understand why people are -against- taking care of our planet and taking care of our people's health. It makes good, common sense to me.

Dame Calla



TheHeretic -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 10:37:49 AM)

What did I say that was controversial, RML???  There are a number of ways to extract oil from shale.  There are.  Some are disasters, some are theoretical, and some, the kind I like, require people who are willing to open their eyes and see what two + two works out to.  I have precisely zero positive experience with you being willing to make those leaps with me. 

Have a great day, RML.  If you get bored, maybe you could think about how we can make electricity with nuclear power, and come up with all the reasons you don't like that idea.

Actually, RML, I was just saying there are many ways to skin a cat, and looking from the immediate damage to the environment, but don't ask me to explain that figure of speech.  TOS violation.



Louve00 -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 10:51:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

Well...WE, in America, might. 
Wouldn't that be all the more reason to look for alternative energy, if we are striving to be energy dependant? 
  

I think you meant independent, right? In which case, yeah, you're absolutely right. But it's not just an American problem - it's a global problem. The whole world needs to switch over to alternative energies as soon as possible. The health of the American economy is dependent on the health of the world economy. It doesn't do us any good to be crusing along on solar, nuclear, and nuclear-cracked hydrogen if the rest of the world is shut down because they don't have gas for their cars, diesel for their trucks and trains, and fuel oil for their factories.


*grins*
Yes, I meant independant.   [sm=imsorry.gif]




rulemylife -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 11:07:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

What did I say that was controversial, RML???  There are a number of ways to extract oil from shale.  There are.  Some are disasters, some are theoretical, and some, the kind I like, require people who are willing to open their eyes and see what two + two works out to.  I have precisely zero positive experience with you being willing to make those leaps with me. 

Have a great day, RML.  If you get bored, maybe you could think about how we can make electricity with nuclear power, and come up with all the reasons you don't like that idea.

Actually, RML, I was just saying there are many ways to skin a cat, and looking from the immediate damage to the environment, but don't ask me to explain that figure of speech.  TOS violation.


Actually, all I was asking you to do was explain the economical ways to extract that oil that you alluded to but failed to document.

Instead I get another nonsensical rant from you completely evading the question.



TheHeretic -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 11:20:57 AM)

And you offer nonsensical demands to answer questions about things I never said.




Sanity -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 11:26:32 AM)


Don't feel bad, rml. TheHeretic refuses to jump through every ridiculous hoop I hold up too.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

And you offer nonsensical demands to answer questions about things I never said.






rulemylife -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 11:31:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

And you offer nonsensical demands to answer questions about things I never said.





?????


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Panda, you might want to google up a little bit on shale oil (like we are going to let the environmental problems slow us down).  The sooner the middle east and assorted asshat dictators run out of the easy liquid stuff, the sooner we control the biggest petroleum reserves on the planet.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Don't try and make me the environmental bad guy, Panda.  I'm just telling it like it is.  Even if we completely stopped using petroleum for energy tomorrow, we are still going to need the petro-chemicals for all sorts of things.  Scenery isn't going to keep us from getting what we need, and there are a number of ways to extract the oil.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 11:33:33 AM)

[sm=offtopic2.gif]Good gosh -- would you boys get a room?!~[sm=argue.gif]



rulemylife -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 11:34:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Don't feel bad, rml. TheHeretic refuses to jump through every ridiculous hoop I hold up too



Well, I hate to be redundant, but I thought it was pretty straightforward.

He made a claim and I asked him for proof.



rulemylife -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 11:37:58 AM)

Nope.

Because this is the usual conservative argument.

Throw out an unsubstantiated claim, say it is true, provide no proof, then declare you are right.

The same nonsense we are witnessing in the health care debate.

So, time for some proof.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 12:03:48 PM)

Just on a quick Bing, this is what I found on oil-shale production:

http://consumerenergyalliance.org/primary/fossil-fuels/oil-shale/



xBullx -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 12:15:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy
These bastards will destroy the planet and kill us all!

Email from American Petroleum Institute outlines plan to create appearance of public opposition to Obama's climate and energy reform

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/aug/14/us-lobbying



This is certainly one area I'm with Obama. I want a cleaner planet, not to help that idiot Gore's green scheme to fill his and the carbon credit contingent's pockets, but to do it for us and our kids. I liked the cash for clunkers; some parts of it are corrupt, but such is life. I also love the greener trucks that no one ever talks about. the 2010 semi tractor will produce less polution than your toaster.

I want a reduction in oil consumption, so I support anyone working to decrease the use of fossil fuels.

But I am compelled to add, that we need a plan, one that will not reduce our ability to compete in the global economy, but rather to inovate and lead it in a better (for all life) direction.



rulemylife -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 12:29:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Just on a quick Bing, this is what I found on oil-shale production:

http://consumerenergyalliance.org/primary/fossil-fuels/oil-shale/


And this is the key sentence, and what I am disputing with Heretic:

"If low-cost oil shale production methods can be achieved to produce approximately 3 million barrels per day, the direct economic profits could reach about $20 billion per year."



TheHeretic -> RE: Oil Lobby To Fund Campaign Against Obama's Climate Change Strategy (8/16/2009 12:48:24 PM)

So you are disputing something I never said, RML...  Still trying to puzzle out why I find your "simple questions" so boring???  Please explain how you reached your hypothesis that I was talking about shale oil being economical, when I clearly stated that we had to run out of the easy liquid oil first? 

Calla, if you search a bit further into the in-situ methodology, you will find that there are all sorts of experimental processes being looked into to heat the shale where it sits.  The method we wind up using when we reach the point of needing to do it might not even be anything that has been tried to date. 



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