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ORIGINAL: Arpig

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I can agree it is all 'just someone's dream', but an illusion?

I believe Gautama said it, and for no reason I can pin down, tonight it rings true to me...All life is an illusion, nothing is real.

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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet

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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

deceit.

A kid can con an extra piece of chocolate out of an adult-  but is not old enough to have an ego.

Ego would be expressed by the fact that the kid knew he would HAVE to con that candy out of the adult. He knew it was not an appropriate time or thing for him to have, so he acted accordingly.

lovingpet

Good point.  When my sister was a toddler- I told her candy gave her the tummy ache.  She said "NO candy is GOOD".   She was very convinced that since it tasted good that it was good.

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet

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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet

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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

deceit.

A kid can con an extra piece of chocolate out of an adult-  but is not old enough to have an ego.

Ego would be expressed by the fact that the kid knew he would HAVE to con that candy out of the adult. He knew it was not an appropriate time or thing for him to have, so he acted accordingly.

lovingpet

Good point.  When my sister was a toddler- I told her candy gave her the tummy ache.  She said "NO candy is GOOD".   She was very convinced that since it tasted good that it was good.

They may not have gotten everything straight yet, but they do have an ego (developing in strength and complexity though it may be). If she truly believed that, then she wasn't deceiving you. She was working off of faulty information in all honesty and to the best of her ability. Correcting this information will mean she will then have to either attempt deceit or be honest and accept the occasional no in response.

lovingpet

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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet

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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet

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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

deceit.

A kid can con an extra piece of chocolate out of an adult-  but is not old enough to have an ego.

Ego would be expressed by the fact that the kid knew he would HAVE to con that candy out of the adult. He knew it was not an appropriate time or thing for him to have, so he acted accordingly.

lovingpet

Good point.  When my sister was a toddler- I told her candy gave her the tummy ache.  She said "NO candy is GOOD".   She was very convinced that since it tasted good that it was good.

They may not have gotten everything straight yet, but they do have an ego (developing in strength and complexity though it may be). If she truly believed that, then she wasn't deceiving you. She was working off of faulty information in all honesty and to the best of her ability. Correcting this information will mean she will then have to either attempt deceit or be honest and accept the occasional no in response.

lovingpet

But she thought I was the mean adult who was trying to fool her.

As for ego- a UM can shout and make a seen like they are the only one on earth- so I see your point.

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ORIGINAL: cpK69

I’ve been wondering, does ego cause deceit, or does deceit cause ego to lie?

Six of one, half dozen of the other?

Perhaps it can’t be answered?

Kim

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

The only thing I can tell you with certainty is....trailer parks cause tornadoes.

(Anything else is just a guess on my part).

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ORIGINAL: anthrosub

To those who don't understand what is meant by life is an illusion, I will give you a hint...you need to go into it a bit more before you will see what it means. And here's a second hint...you may or may not know what "it" is right now but "it" is the key to the whole thing. Oh darn, there I go again with those damn quotes!

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Deceit would imply that society, or individuals in it know that what they are handing down is wrong and so to put a spin on it to the rest of its members.

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The younger ones accept such at face value, but in time grow to accept or reject some of these earlier teachings. That is the maturation of ego and is what I hear echoed in your poem.

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ORIGINAL: cpK69

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Deceit would imply that society, or individuals in it know that what they are handing down is wrong and so to put a spin on it to the rest of its members.

How so, if individuals are capable of decieving themselves?

Self deceit is only possible after something has been determined to be right or wrong. If it is determined to be wrong, but the person still chooses not to break with that, either they have to change their belief or they have to use some sort of self deception to protect that vulnerable area. If it is determined to be right, then there is no need for self deception and, at least in that particular instance, it will not occur.

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The younger ones accept such at face value, but in time grow to accept or reject some of these earlier teachings. That is the maturation of ego and is what I hear echoed in your poem.

According to what I read, it does not seem possible for ego to mature; it can only be, or not be.

Who told you, you should believe your mother's truths were absolute?

Ego definitely devolops and matures. It is a never finished process, but a person will become more sturdy in the selection process of what they will accept as true and part of their value system and what they will toss as malarky. The fact that new things get thrown at a person and that this has to be determined each and every time is WHY it is a never ending process, not because the ego remains static. No one told me I had to believe my mother's truths were absolute, but her conviction was enough because the child's natural instinct is to trust a parent. It isn't until we learn that they lie, commit hypocracy, and much more that we NEED to question them. When that time comes and we realize that the parent is fallible, then we can pull away from or keep that which is our own. The apple may or may not fall far from the tree, but it definitely did move.

lovingpet

Kim

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet


Self deceit is only possible after something has been determined to be right or wrong. If it is determined to be wrong, but the person still chooses not to break with that, either they have to change their belief or they have to use some sort of self deception to protect that vulnerable area. If it is determined to be right, then there is no need for self deception and, at least in that particular instance, it will not occur.

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ORIGINAL: cpK69

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet


Self deceit is only possible after something has been determined to be right or wrong. If it is determined to be wrong, but the person still chooses not to break with that, either they have to change their belief or they have to use some sort of self deception to protect that vulnerable area. If it is determined to be right, then there is no need for self deception and, at least in that particular instance, it will not occur.

Can’t it also be visible as hypocrisy? A person asserts that something is wrong, but does not see that what they are doing, is the something they claim is wrong? Isn’t that deceit; lying to one’s self?

Self deception, in the perception of others, is called hypocracy. It becomes evident to people once they are able to match words to behavior. When the two don't match, something feels off. Eventually, there is the realization that this person is not being completely honest either about what they are saying or are not capable of living up to their own standards. This is where questioning those "absolutes" kicks in. It is clear that things don't work properly for one person, then I should consider whether or not it is something that is going to work properly for me. Self deception occurs due to internal conflict with learned values vs needs, wants, and desires of self. Most will have some level of self deception in some areas. When we say a person is "genuine" we are saying that they have few (that we have been able to observe in the form of hypocracy) of these conflicts. That quality certainly draws attention given how truly rare it is.

 

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Ego definitely devolops and matures. It is a never finished process, but a person will become more sturdy in the selection process of what they will accept as true and part of their value system and what they will toss as malarky. The fact that new things get thrown at a person and that this has to be determined each and every time is WHY it is a never ending process, not because the ego remains static.

 
Does the maturing you are referring to have to do with making better statistical calculations; in the sense that it learns what actions will garner which results best?

When we figure that out is when we have learned to deceive. That is not a mature ego, that is testing the integrity of the belief systems in which one finds themselves. If I do not succeed in deception or manipulation, then I figure out that my social group is not going to bend on that issue. If it works, then I know there is play in the concept. Doing the right thing doesn't always garner the best results. Often, the wrong thing actually seems to make life easier. Still a mature ego will choose to do things that fall into that concept of "right" even when it is difficult and, perhaps, against the cultural/family norms. The mature ego will also see violations of this moral code as a personal failure. The more serious criminal has a short circuit in this process that leads them to always test and push and sees no benefit in doing things the "hard" way. This can come from a lot of sources, but unless the wires are uncrossed, they will continue to go on without proper ego regulation (an internal process) which means it has to be imposed upon them (justice system).

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No one told me I had to believe my mother's truths were absolute, but her conviction was enough because the child's natural instinct is to trust a parent. It isn't until we learn that they lie, commit hypocracy, and much more that we NEED to question them. When that time comes and we realize that the parent is fallible, then we can pull away from or keep that which is our own. The apple may or may not fall far from the tree, but it definitely did move.

It would have been more appropriate to ask where you got the idea, instead of “who told you…”.

I think realizing early on that my mother’s theories were inaccurate, not to mention those of other authority figures; a miserable childhood; and having a lot of time to observe and think about it as an adult all lend to my difficulty in assessing when I went from believing, to knowing, to convincing myself I was wrong. If that is how it works.


Also, because I am an outlier, it is even more difficult to assess when this happens in the average person. Perhaps it starts right about the time a child says to their parent for the first time "I hate you"?

I’ll be thinking on this for a while… I can tell.

Kim

I think most of us pick up on discrepancies in those closest to us rather quickly. For a long time it is just a feeling of something being off, but eventually it leads to confusion, struggle, and then a resolution on the matter. Often these things we had to put so much thought into are the ones we will come back to question over and over again because they are the most apt to lead us into a self deception or work in an otherwise dysfunctional manner. For this reason, they will be challenged over and over again until one can rectify the incongruency. It doesn't much matter how it happens (changing the belief, modifying and being aware of behavior, etc). Once that is an area where you do not show to the world as conflicted, opinions and confrontations are more or less ineffective.

Oddly enough, I hate you usually comes out when the child doesn't feel like they are able to separate from the image and fate of the parent. It is the impetus for the ego to strength, but the realization of the double standards and inconsistent practices are old news at that point. This is the point where a child has to begin differentiating self from that of the parent in a clear fashion. This usually starts in declaring a lot of extremes opposing the parents' values. It simmers in time to a more honest and workable system for the child. With exposure to others' views and challenging of their own issues, this process will continue and the person will become more crystalized over time. There's always some room for change, but mature adults are usually pretty settled and content with the structures they have built.

lovingpet