RE: Medicare as a shining example (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (8/19/2009 2:43:56 PM)

Rehashing your ideas is the road to being noticed Ron. I was hoping short on ass and long on sphere would have pulled the wool over the collective eyes of CM. Can't blame me - Bertrand Russell made a career out of it.




rulemylife -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (8/19/2009 2:57:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Profit is good, profit is your friend..



Hmmm!

Where have I heard this before?

YouTube - Gordon Gekko "Greed is Good"





Lorr47 -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (8/20/2009 9:24:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

Because that was how the private insurances got it structured once upon a time.  Most of those plans are secondary, with a cap on benefits, and they send you through Medicare before they pay.  I saw my Dad's insurance work the same way. 

Sorry for the trouble it is hard to watch, but a lot of private insurance groups make people jump through the same hoops.



Yes, if I reviewed all the hoops that the private carriers put us through in our lifetimes with those hoops involving Medicare, Medicare seems better.  I am not saying that Medicare is not at times a pain in the ass but usually less so overall than the private insurers.

Where the interaction becomes a real problem is where the private insurer finds out the insured is also on Medicare.  The private insurer will immediately cut the injured person off their contractual rights and refuse to pay under their contract.  The insured then has to sue to reinstate the payments.  Michigan is considering a bill with substantial civil and criminal penalties for insurance companies who try this.  However, the republican Senate is trying to stop the passage of the act. The insurance industry owns Michigan.  If you want to change governmental actions in Michigan, vote your insurance stock.




Lorr47 -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (8/20/2009 9:25:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Profit is good, profit is your friend..



Hmmm!

Where have I heard this before?

YouTube - Gordon Gekko "Greed is Good"


Didn't Gekko finally go to prison?




Musicmystery -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (8/20/2009 9:50:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

No - companies can and do downsize, split, merge, fail, and so on.



1) Certain companies have been deemed to be too big to fail - and consequently they have been given a fair old hand out at the expense of the tax payer who by the way did not get a vote on the matter.

2) Certain industries (let's call them narrow economic interests) hold court in the sphere of political power which goes a long way to explain why you end up in wars that many people do not want.

Yeah in principle and in the land of fairies and elves the invisible hand of the free market ensures all interests are served. In practice modern history tells us that certain industries have effectively formed an unelected government with the express purpose of serving their advancement.


Yup.

Also--Adam Smith devotees ignore that markets in an industrial world have externalities. By definition, markets can't fix that (as they are external to the markets). When costs are divorced from those profiting by their causes, markets are inoperable.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (8/20/2009 10:46:24 AM)

~FR~

Here is an update of the Doctor's Visit:

Entered the office and they took my Mom back, she weighed in and vitals. Doctor was standing in the hallway outside the area they do weight and vitals. Doctor asked my Mom how she was feeling. My Mom said fine except for being tired from getting out. Doctor handed her the CMN, and apologized for her having to come in. I asked the person there that handles these things and they said Medicare would check to make sure a Doctor's visit was charged the same day as the CMN. So the medical transport cost, Doctor's visit and endanger patient health all unnecessary because of ludicrous regulations that are followed by pencil pushers and allowed by politicians.

The government in many areas needs to be audited and trimmed of cost. Enacting any new programs without requiring that the government take steps to reduce cost will only cause further problems. I would love for everyone to have equal access to the same medical treatment, but Medicare is headed for bankruptcy, this country is headed in the same direction, and spending more money without forcing the government to spend it responsibily is insane. Just as insane as the regs they have in many areas.




Musicmystery -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (8/20/2009 2:54:19 PM)

quote:

Enacting any new programs without requiring that the government take steps to reduce cost will only cause further problems. I would love for everyone to have equal access to the same medical treatment, but Medicare is headed for bankruptcy, this country is headed in the same direction, and spending more money without forcing the government to spend it responsibily is insane.


Agreed about costs.

Preventing new programs also prevents new benefits, however, and doing nothing is just too expensive (for reasons already repeated in several current threads).

Put another way--

There's no point in blocking ourselves into the same kind of myopic corner you're protesting in blind adherence to regulation.





Brain -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (8/21/2009 1:55:22 AM)

Health Care Reforms: So Democrats are You Ready to GO Alone?

In order to get their health care reforms passed it seems that Democrats may be considering making use of a little known political tactic called reconciliation,

http://luvuobama.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-care-reform-so-democrats-are-you_20.html


It's about time. I've had enough Republican bullshit. Now it's time to nail it to a cross!




Brain -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (8/21/2009 2:03:26 AM)

Tavis Smiley . Archives . Wednesday, August 19, 2009 PBS

August 19,2009

Former Vermont governor and DNC chair Howard Dean weighs in on the healthcare reform debate and speculates on the impact of a bill not passing at all. Tavis also pays tribute to news legend and 60 Minutes creator Don Hewitt, including clips from his two appearances on the show.

Howard Dean served six terms as Vermont's governor, before running for the '04 Democratic presidential nomination. In '05, he was tapped to chair the DNC and, later, founded Democracy for America. He began his political career in the Vermont legislature and served as lieutenant governor. Before entering politics, he received his M.D. from the Albert Einstein College of Medicine and practiced internal medicine. In his new book, Howard Dean's Prescription for Real Healthcare Reform, he addresses how to overcome today's crisis.

WATCH

Former DNC chair responds to the possiblity of taking a public health option off the table in a reform bill. (1:41)
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200908/20090819.html





Brain -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (8/21/2009 2:13:50 AM)

WATCH BOTH PARTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Tavis Smiley . Archives . Wednesday, August 19, 2009 PBS

August 19,2009

Former Vermont governor and DNC chair Howard Dean weighs in on the healthcare reform debate and speculates on the impact of a bill not passing at all. Tavis also pays tribute to news legend and 60 Minutes creator Don Hewitt, including clips from his two appearances on the show.

Howard Dean served six terms as Vermont's governor, before running for the '04 Democratic presidential nomination. In '05, he was tapped to chair the DNC and, later, founded Democracy for America. He began his political career in the Vermont legislature and served as lieutenant governor. Before entering politics, he received his M.D. from the Albert Einstein College of Medicine and practiced internal medicine. In his new book, Howard Dean's Prescription for Real Healthcare Reform, he addresses how to overcome today's crisis.

WATCH

Former DNC chair responds to the possiblity of taking a public health option off the table in a reform bill. (1:41)
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200908/20090819.html







Brain -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (8/21/2009 2:47:18 AM)

Public health plan idea followed unlikely path


By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Writer Ricardo Alonso-zaldivar, Associated Press Writer – 21 mins ago

WASHINGTON – It started out with a couple of liberal policy wonks. One on each coast.
Along the way, Elizabeth Edwards — sensitized by her own experiences as a cancer patient — helped propel it into presidential politics during her husband's campaign.

The idea of a government medical plan to compete with private insurance might have been just a footnote in an academic paper. Instead it has followed an unlikely path to center stage in the national health care debate. Many Democrats insist any legislation must include a public option, while nearly all Republicans are against it. President Barack
Obama seems uncomfortably stuck in the middle.

A look at the roots of the idea shows that the policy experts who proposed early versions believed the government plan would become one of the largest insurers in the country.

But Obama and other candidates saw it as a compromise between rival Democratic factions. One side wants Medicare-for-all, while the other prefers to subsidize coverage through private insurance plans — as Massachusetts has done. The debate within the party still rages, with Obama in the crossfire.


Former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards was the first Democratic presidential candidate to propose a public option as part of his health care plan, unveiled in 2007. Behind the scenes, his wife, Elizabeth, was a strong advocate of his decision.

In an interview, Elizabeth Edwards said that as the daughter of a Navy captain, she grew up with government health care and found it dependable. Later in life, her sojourn in the medical world as a breast cancer patient opened her eyes to the travails of people who had no insurance, or whose coverage turned out to be unreliable.

"I met people who were constantly coming up against one problem or another," Edwards said. "Even people like me, who have health care, know someone who has been through some misery because they couldn't afford the health care they needed."

Before the 2008 presidential campaign, chances were slim that lawmakers one day would consider government coverage for middle-class workers and their families. Liberals had talked for years about expanding Medicare to cover not just seniors, but all Americans. That's all it seemed to be — talk.

Then in 2001, political scientist Jacob Hacker proposed a plan he called "Medicare Plus." Employers could choose either to offer private insurance or pay a payroll tax to finance coverage for their employees through a health plan modeled on Medicare. Hacker, now at Yale University, retooled his proposal early in 2007 as the presidential campaign geared up. It caught on with core Democratic constituencies.

"The unions fell in love with Jacob's idea," said health economist Len Nichols of the New America Foundation.

Hacker said he wanted to bridge the gap between Democrats who supported a single payer plan like Medicare-for-all and those who wanted to preserve the employer coverage that has served most Americans for a half century.

"I tried to provide a case for seeing common ground between those two positions," Hacker said.

"There's certainly a strong political argument that single payer is not feasible. Threatening (employer) coverage is a political nonstarter, and moving all health care spending onto the public budget is virtually impossible in the current fiscal climate."

Nonetheless, he said estimates showed his public plan would end up covering about half of workers and their families — gaining a powerful position in the market.

On the other side of the country, a Berkeley health policy professor had come up with the idea of a head-to-head competition between a government plan and private plans. Helen Halpin proposed such a scheme in 2002 for California, a state with a history of failed attempts to remake its health care system. The following year, she retooled the plan as a national proposal.

Called the CHOICE Option, Halpin's plan would let people decide whether they wanted government coverage or a private plan.
"May the best model win," Halpin said. "Depending on the preferences of the population, the system could evolve to single payer, but it would be a totally voluntary transition."

Her bet:
The government plan wins.Edwards' health care adviser, Peter Harbage, said he was familiar with both Halpin's idea and Hacker's proposal, and they were discussed in the campaign's deliberations.

"What Helen had here was the idea of choice, and choice as an option," said Harbage, now at the Center for American Progress. "The catch phrases people are using today were part of her paper."

Edwards decided on his health care plan after the campaign set up a private teleconference debate that featured two independent policy experts. One argued for a government-run system, while the other defended a market-based approach like Massachusetts has.

"We were both walking around with phones," said Elizabeth Edwards. "I was listening in." After the debate, her husband decided to go for the market-based approach — with a public option added.

Later on, Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton adopted the public plan. The idea remins popular with the public:
a Kaiser Family Foundation poll this week found 59 percent of Americans support it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090821/ap_on_re_us/us_health_overhaul_public_plan





cadenas -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (8/21/2009 3:18:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
An oxygen concentrator (according to this article I'm referring to) costs $600.  By law, medicare is only allowed to rent a device like this, at a price that winds up costing, thru rental fees, (again, according to this article) costs $7,142.00 over a 36 month period.  Medicare will cover $5,714 dollars of that and the patient will have to pay the other $1,428 (or 20%), when the concentrator costs $600 to begin with!! 

That is utterly rediculous, wasteful, and just one example in this article, which I will be able to post to you, if you want it, most likely when Sept gets here.  But the article goes on to tell you about a whole bunch of completely absurd wasteful spending that is going on. 


Actually, it makes perfect economic sense. Medicare found that paying for the regular maintenance and repair would be much more expensive than renting the equipment in the first place.

The rental contracts are basically full-service, according to http://copdnewsoftheday.com/?p=745 and include:

- The device itself
- Regular home visits for maintenance
- Any repairs needed
- Replacement if the device breaks down
- Any supplies
- Two additional years of oxygen equipment rental free of charge (Medicare pays for three years, and expects the supplier to cover an additional two years free)

And all that for about $120/month? I think Medicare is getting a good deal here.





OrionTheWolf -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (9/7/2009 9:04:40 PM)

I missed your response long ago. In the seven years my Mom has had an Oxygen concentrator she has had twice a year servicing. Guy walks in, looks at machine and says "yep it seems to be working." Guy looks at one of us and asks "any problems?" We answer no. He leaves a pack of plastic tubing and accessories. Yeah it is real expensive to service this thing. Last December her rental contract was up on the last one, so they called and asked her if she wanted a new one, of course she said yes, so a new CMA and a new machine being rented every month. It is a scam.

Now some more news on Medicare and the waste that occurs. I am sure everyone has heard of the Mayo clinic, and the reputation it has:

" Dr. Denis A. Cortese, president of the Mayo Clinic, based in Rochester, Minn., said Medicare wasted billions of dollars a year because it “pays the most to health care providers and geographic areas that provide the lowest-quality care at the highest costs.” "

But the government says it wants:

" As part of any bill to revamp health care, President Obama and Democratic leaders in Congress say they want to reward doctors and hospitals for providing higher-quality, lower-cost care. "

So logic says that we definately want to look at the problem with Medicare, and not repeat it with Health Care reform. Does anyone find any fault with that logic?

Damn I forgot the link:  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/health/policy/08cost.html




DomKen -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (9/7/2009 9:27:37 PM)

Sounds like the President is intending to model HRC on the Minnesota model which is working both to provide better coverage and keeping costs down which does include Medicare pricing in the state.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (9/7/2009 9:48:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sounds like the President is intending to model HRC on the Minnesota model which is working both to provide better coverage and keeping costs down which does include Medicare pricing in the state.


God, I hope not. Lord help us all if he does. Tens of thousands of the poorest and the chronically ill citizens of Minnesota have been cut out of the program to save money. Minnesota  Care is a fucking disaster, and if Obama tries to model the national health care program off of this travesty, I'm just going to pack up the car and move to Canada first thing Thursday morning.




DomKen -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (9/7/2009 10:17:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sounds like the President is intending to model HRC on the Minnesota model which is working both to provide better coverage and keeping costs down which does include Medicare pricing in the state.


God, I hope not. Lord help us all if he does. Tens of thousands of the poorest and the chronically ill citizens of Minnesota have been cut out of the program to save money. Minnesota  Care is a fucking disaster, and if Obama tries to model the national health care program off of this travesty, I'm just going to pack up the car and move to Canada first thing Thursday morning.


It's still better than mostof the rest of the country. Simply keeping the for profit insurance companies out has helped keep costs down.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (9/7/2009 10:30:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sounds like the President is intending to model HRC on the Minnesota model which is working both to provide better coverage and keeping costs down which does include Medicare pricing in the state.


God, I hope not. Lord help us all if he does. Tens of thousands of the poorest and the chronically ill citizens of Minnesota have been cut out of the program to save money. Minnesota  Care is a fucking disaster, and if Obama tries to model the national health care program off of this travesty, I'm just going to pack up the car and move to Canada first thing Thursday morning.


It's still better than mostof the rest of the country. Simply keeping the for profit insurance companies out has helped keep costs down.


But it doesn't solve the problem of insuring the uninsured. One of the principal ways it keep costs down is by not covering people who have health problems. That's the system we've already got! Where's the reform?

If that's seriously the best Obama can do after all this smoke and noise, he should just forget about getting it done this year and start over from scratch. MnCare applied on a national scale would be a catastrophic failure for his vaunted promise of systemic reform.




Louve00 -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (9/8/2009 4:34:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

Actually, it makes perfect economic sense. Medicare found that paying for the regular maintenance and repair would be much more expensive than renting the equipment in the first place.

The rental contracts are basically full-service, according to http://copdnewsoftheday.com/?p=745 and include:

- The device itself
- Regular home visits for maintenance
- Any repairs needed
- Replacement if the device breaks down
- Any supplies
- Two additional years of oxygen equipment rental free of charge (Medicare pays for three years, and expects the supplier to cover an additional two years free)

And all that for about $120/month? I think Medicare is getting a good deal here.




As Orion told you above, the cost of maintenance isn't all that much.  My husband was on oxygen for about 3 years and had an oxygen concentrator.  The cost to maintain an oxygen concentrator is minimal compared the the electric bill to run it.  They don't deduct the patients electrical expense from the cost of renting it though.  Full service?  I never saw his machine being serviced.  And, to boot, the oxygen supply company that did rent us that machine charged us for nasal cannula's, oxygen tubing, filters, and all the extra's seperately from the rental of the unit.  So unless you mean some kind of other supplies, medicare and the patient are billed aside from the rental of the machine.

When I posted that post I was patiently waiting for an article to hit the web and it finally did. 
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2009/sep2009_Why-American-Healthcare-is-Headed-for-Collapse_01.htm

Here is an article that will show you the bit about the oxygen concentrator that I personally copied from the page back in August when I posted that post and with the article many more example of pure waste.  I hesitate to paste too much from this site because people (DomKen) think that I or the site is pushing vitamins and supplements.  LEF makes the main lot of its money making quality, trustable vitamins and supplements (and even some medicines) for the general public.  But they don't give you this information to make you buy their products.  Their information and findings are free to the public, and they have fought with the FDA in supreme courts to change things for the better of the people, and have written countless letter to congress and the president, in an effort to get someone to open their eyes.  To debunk them only because they believe in vitamins and supplements is denying yourself information.




DomKen -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (9/8/2009 9:05:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
I hesitate to paste too much from this site because people (DomKen) think that I or the site is pushing vitamins and supplements.

You and they do push "supplements." LEF is in the business of selling woo and you've bought into it hook, line and sinker as has been explained in tedious detail to you several times previously. Anything coming out of the 'supplements are the solution' movement is suspect because the evidence against their foundational claims is overwhelming.

As evidence as to their complete lack of credibility, the article you linked to claims 20% of yearly medicare expenses is fraud. That claim is based on one man's, Malcolm Sparrow, claim. That claim is based on absolutely no concrete data it is simply a number he said is possible. Then the article pitches some supplement woo about vitamin D. Which of course was the whole point of the article (sell more supplements).




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Medicare as a shining example (9/9/2009 8:26:55 AM)

So what are the percentages? From what I have found estimates range from 3% to 40%, depending on what you include in the figures.

I did find this little tidbit interesting:

"His evidence is anecdotal but suggestive. In a recent academic paper, Sparrow noted that then-FBI Director Louis Freeh testified in 1995 that cocaine traffickers in Florida and California were switching from drug dealing to health care fraud because they discovered that health care fraud was safer, easier and more lucrative than the drug trade, and that it carried a smaller risk of detection. "

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/27/tom-coburn/coburn-says-20-percent-every-medicare-dollar-goes-/

So Medicare is helping fight the war on drugs ;)




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