RE: Is Elise Sutton right?

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LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/20/2006 1:02:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver One could write a thesis but no one is going to read a thesis on a thread but to try to be concise, politics tends to be based on selfish interest and like any political theory so is feminism and those women that espouse feminism tend to be interested in their own interests and not the interests in women in general or interested in the interests of women in general as long as it suits their own interests. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with that, selfish interest motivates the majority of us but to put a veneer of idealistic sisterhood on it and putting themselves on a pedestal as though they believe in some higher cause, well nooo! I will just say that generally, activism is very thankless, hard, non-tangibly rewarding work and people who engage in it consistently are pretty remarkable people. And I haven't seen anyone here suggest feminism as some idealistic sisterhood or putting anyone on pedastals.

TeeGO -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/20/2006 2:40:35 PM)
We are all open minded people here. I just can't figure out why there is so much disagreement pertaining to this topic. I know Elise Sutton is into Feminism, she thinks it destroys the "dreaded" male ego or something. I know a lot of the male subs are into this, you can see their pictures with their frilly dresses, make-up, and wigs. But why are so many male Doms arguing about Feminism, I've never seen or heard of a male Dom into Feminism. Now I know about 1/2 of the Domme's are into Feminism while 1/2 are not, with the other 1/3 undecided. As for me, I say live at let live, if you like Feminism then go for it. Now when I hear talk of Forced-Feminism I start looking for the back door to slip on out of Dodge and... PSSSSTTTTPSSSTT<<< Huh? What? Oh...um...somebody is trying to get my attention off to the left, excuse me a moment... >>>>>>>>What do you want? PSSSPSSSPSPSSP<<<< >>>>Feminization? What's Feminism? PSSSPSSSPSPSSP<<<< >>>>Ooooh! Well that’s different. ...Um, what I was saying...uh... NEVERMIND.

MrDiscipline44 -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/20/2006 3:27:25 PM)
LMAO!! Now I've got to admit, that was too funny.

cloudboy -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/20/2006 4:56:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amayos quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Alright, I just have to ask, what is "the feminist movement?" An admittedly more subtle yet arguably more persuasive and numerous faction of mindset than the first, the supporters of which constitute radical liberal politicians and their well-meaning and not-so-well-meaning supporters, more than one college curriculum which has often taken on the role of disseminating doctrine and intellectual propaganda on behalf of the aforementioned political body (in the name of equality and 'well-roundedness'), the massive Hollywood and entertainment media femisinformation influence seen virtually everywhere which repeatedly enforces a women rule, men drool satirical—and sometimes not so satirical—content, and (my personal favorite) heady, smarmy intellectuals who contain a ponderous bias in support of liberal feminist politics yet often pretend to pursue "fairness" and "balance" in literary, radio, television or internet-based discourse. For examples on that last point cloudboy, take a look in the mirror. [;)] Hmm, last point....., you mean I'm your "personal favorite?" I'm touched. O, and I must add, which is not somthing I usually get to say about your posts..... but... when I read that first sentence up there.... my eyes just kind of gloss over. Someday, you'll have to tell me what "faction of mindset" is. I'm not a big fan of doctrine, but count me in the camp that's glad for women's liberation. Curious, did you read Ellen Goodman today, "Redefining marital happiness," its as if she's following this Elise Sutton thread herself. http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/03/17/redefining_marital_happiness/ >This month, two sociologists from the University of Virginia, Bradford Wilcox and Steven Nock, published a portrait of happy marriage. Using data from 5,000 couples in the National Survey of Families and Households done in the 1990s, they looked at the wives' views and came up with a model that had something to please both traditionalists and progressives. To the pleasure of progressives, they found that a husband's emotional engagement is crucial to a wife's happiness. So is her belief that the housework is divided fairly. To the pleasure of traditionalists, they found that women married to breadwinner husbands are happier than full-time working wives. And that wives who believe in marriage till death do us part -- rather than marriage as long as love shall last -- are also happier.<

cloudboy -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/20/2006 4:57:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I will just say that generally, activism is very thankless, hard, non-tangibly rewarding work and people who engage in it consistently are pretty remarkable people. And I haven't seen anyone here suggest feminism as some idealistic sisterhood or putting anyone on pedastals. Meatclever's just upset that they're not HIS activists. I agree with you point here.

Tristan -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/20/2006 6:32:45 PM)
Many have written about how they do not understand why some people get angry with feminism. I think there were many good posts explaining the reasons. I think that the basic reason is that feminism, in general, promotes a negative attitude toward a particular gender in order to promote a political agenda. I think it's that simple. Feminism is the only movement that can do this too. If any other movement used negative statements about another group (with the exception of muslims or arabs), they would not get positive media attention. You can say things about men that you can not say about any other group. How do people who talk about fairness justify these negative statements and attitudes? I think what many who crisized feminism are saying is that they want fairness and balance. This is what I hear most often as feminism's main critism. No matter how angry or how many issues you have with the opposite gender, don't forget that you have a 50/50 chance of having children of that gender. We as a species seem to have a strong desire to divide labor based on gender. That doesn't mean we still can not have fairness in this division of labor. However, fairness is not going to happen with the promotion of negative attitudes toward a particular group. Tristan

DiannaVesta -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/20/2006 6:37:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tristan Many have written about how they do not understand why some people get angry with feminism. I think there were many good posts explaining the reasons. I think that the basic reason is that feminism, in general, promotes a negative attitude toward a particular gender in order to promote a political agenda. I think it's that simple. Feminism is the only movement that can do this too. If any other movement used negative statements about another group (with the exception of muslims or arabs), they would not get positive media attention. You can say things about men that you can not say about any other group. How do people who talk about fairness justify these negative statements and attitudes? I think what many who crisized feminism are saying is that they want fairness and balance. This is what I hear most often as feminism's main critism. No matter how angry or how many issues you have with the opposite gender, don't forget that you have a 50/50 chance of having children of that gender. We as a species seem to have a strong desire to divide labor based on gender. That doesn't mean we still can not have fairness in this division of labor. However, fairness is not going to happen with the promotion of negative attitudes toward a particular group. Tristan Well said.

thetammyjo -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/20/2006 8:36:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tristan Feminism is the only movement that can do this too. If any other movement used negative statements about another group (with the exception of muslims or arabs), they would not get positive media attention. You can say things about men that you can not say about any other group. How do people who talk about fairness justify these negative statements and attitudes? Wow you must live in a very different reality than I then. Most social movements, in fact I can't think of a single one that does not fit this, say negative things about the opposing views or the opposing arguments -- whether its about race, religion, gender, legal or civil rights, there will always be extreme views in any social movement. That's part of rhetoric in fact (not the best practices in it but still part of it). To claim that feminism is the only one seems very unrealistic.

amayos -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/20/2006 8:45:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tristan Many have written about how they do not understand why some people get angry with feminism. I think there were many good posts explaining the reasons. I think that the basic reason is that feminism, in general, promotes a negative attitude toward a particular gender in order to promote a political agenda. I think it's that simple. Feminism is the only movement that can do this too. If any other movement used negative statements about another group (with the exception of muslims or arabs), they would not get positive media attention. You can say things about men that you can not say about any other group. How do people who talk about fairness justify these negative statements and attitudes? I think what many who crisized feminism are saying is that they want fairness and balance. This is what I hear most often as feminism's main critism. No matter how angry or how many issues you have with the opposite gender, don't forget that you have a 50/50 chance of having children of that gender. We as a species seem to have a strong desire to divide labor based on gender. That doesn't mean we still can not have fairness in this division of labor. However, fairness is not going to happen with the promotion of negative attitudes toward a particular group. Tristan Good points, Tristan.

amayos -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/20/2006 9:02:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Someday, you'll have to tell me what "faction of mindset" is. Leave my idiosyncratic typing alone! I decide upon a whim if I want to speak cryptically. Interesting article. Being that the Boston Globe is arguably a news organization with a liberal political influence, I will weigh this link with some degree of...caution.

meatcleaver -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/21/2006 12:20:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver One could write a thesis but no one is going to read a thesis on a thread but to try to be concise, politics tends to be based on selfish interest and like any political theory so is feminism and those women that espouse feminism tend to be interested in their own interests and not the interests in women in general or interested in the interests of women in general as long as it suits their own interests. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with that, selfish interest motivates the majority of us but to put a veneer of idealistic sisterhood on it and putting themselves on a pedestal as though they believe in some higher cause, well nooo! I will just say that generally, activism is very thankless, hard, non-tangibly rewarding work and people who engage in it consistently are pretty remarkable people. And I haven't seen anyone here suggest feminism as some idealistic sisterhood or putting anyone on pedastals. Hmm many a feminist/misandrist/pissed off bitch has got herself rich and well known by writing a provocative book that if mirrored by a male would be condemned as misogynist.. As for activists being remarkable people, let's think of a few, Osama Bin Laden, Lenin, Moa, Marx....I guess it just depends which side of the fence you are on as to whether someone is remarkable of not.

Tristan -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/21/2006 3:17:02 AM)
Thetammyjo, quote: Wow you must live in a very different reality than I then. Most social movements, in fact I can't think of a single one that does not fit this, say negative things about the opposing views or the opposing arguments -- whether its about race, religion, gender, legal or civil rights, there will always be extreme views in any social movement. That's part of rhetoric in fact (not the best practices in it but still part of it). To claim that feminism is the only one seems very unrealistic. I did not say other movements did not do this, I just said that other movements, in general, do not get positive media coverage (without alternate views) when they do this. I also don't think that people are critizing the extreem views of feminism either. I think the main critism that I'm hearing is of mainstream feminism. Feminism is one sided. Feminism does not look at a study that concludes girls get a better over all education than boys, and suggest changes to the system to help boys get a equal over all education. They look at that same study and find the specific areas that girls are not equal to boys, and suggest changes that would help girls in those specific areas. I think this attitude is probably what most people dislike about main stream feminism. Gender roles are changing. What is needed is a discussion that is not one sided or hampered with negative statements and attitudes toward one side. Tristan

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/21/2006 5:44:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Hmm many a feminist/misandrist/pissed off bitch has got herself rich and well known by writing a provocative book that if mirrored by a male would be condemned as misogynist.. You'll have to define "many." And I did use the word "generally." I accept there are and always will be a few exceptions. That doesn't mean it's the prime motivation for the great many of the activists, nor the end result. quote: As for activists being remarkable people, let's think of a few, Osama Bin Laden, Lenin, Moa, Marx....I guess it just depends which side of the fence you are on as to whether someone is remarkable of not. You're playing the same hyperbole card you tried before and it's just as irrelevant..

cloudboy -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/21/2006 7:01:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Hmm many a feminist/misandrist/pissed off bitch has got herself rich and well known by writing a provocative book that if mirrored by a male would be condemned as misogynist.. As for activists being remarkable people, let's think of a few, Osama Bin Laden, Lenin, Moa, Marx....I guess it just depends which side of the fence you are on as to whether someone is remarkable of not. You are entirely annoying if not completely unfair. The United States was founded on activism and an act of terrorism (The Boston Tea Party.) So don't try to unfairly malign "activists" with that cobbled, self serving, and largely baiting list. The fact is you don't like "feminists" otherwise you would not equate them with a "pissed off bitch." Its funny, when you try and dress up your own warped bias with "objectivity," your bias/insanity/bigotry only comes forth in more clear relief. There is absolutely no ejustem generis between feminists and Bin Laden, Lenin, Mao, and Marx. Bin Laden, Mao, and Lenin all had violence rationalized as a core component of their revolutionary program ---- whereas the same could never be said for any leading feminist. Next, 10-1 you've never even read one work by Marx or even his small political pamphlet, The Communist Manifesto. If you had any grip on Marx, whatsoever, you'd realize that Marx was a writer and political philosopher FIRST and that he himself was hardly an activist at all. His renown and influence stems from his critique on unregulated capitalism and his infamy is largely derived from the followers of his writings --- who in substance were much more akin to Lenin. Your posts are nothing but generalist crap. You don't name names, identify actual cause and effects, or offer any concrete specifics --- why? I would guess it's because you are unable to do it. In fact your whole argument makes about as much sense as your prior statement of, "Poor women always had equal rights because in the part of society they inhabited there wasn't enough wealth to carry passengers."

meatcleaver -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/21/2006 7:08:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross You're playing the same hyperbole card you tried before and it's just as irrelevant.. "All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French, Author, "The Women's Room" "I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, MS. Magazine Editor "I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which a man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it." -- Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan "I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan "Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin "And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference." -- Susan Griffin "Rape: The All-American Crime" "The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson "Amazon Odyssey" (p. 86) "When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..." -- Sheila Jeffrys In order to raise children with equality, we must take them away from families and communally raise them." (Dr. Mary Jo Bane, feminist and assistant professor of education at Wellesley College and associate director of the school's Center for Research on Woman). "The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist." -U.S. National organization for Women Times. "The end of the institution of marriage is a necessary condition for the liberation of women. Therefore it is important for us to encourage women to leave their husbands..." -Declaration of Feminism "A good part-and definitely the most fun part-of being a feminist is about frightening men." --Julie Burchill (b. 1960), British journalist, author. Time Out (London, 16 Nov. 1989). ...rape is the perfected act of male sexuality in a patriarchal culture-- it is the ultimate metaphor for domination, violence, subjugation, and possession. -- Robin Morgan The list is endless. Osama bin laden is hardly hyperbole. He's a pussy cat!

Real0ne -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/21/2006 7:12:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tristan Many have written about how they do not understand why some people get angry with feminism. I think there were many good posts explaining the reasons. I think that the basic reason is that feminism, in general, promotes a negative attitude toward a particular gender in order to promote a political agenda. I think it's that simple. Feminism is the only movement that can do this too. If any other movement used negative statements about another group (with the exception of muslims or arabs), they would not get positive media attention. You can say things about men that you can not say about any other group. How do people who talk about fairness justify these negative statements and attitudes? I think what many who crisized feminism are saying is that they want fairness and balance. This is what I hear most often as feminism's main critism. No matter how angry or how many issues you have with the opposite gender, don't forget that you have a 50/50 chance of having children of that gender. We as a species seem to have a strong desire to divide labor based on gender. That doesn't mean we still can not have fairness in this division of labor. However, fairness is not going to happen with the promotion of negative attitudes toward a particular group. Tristan This hatred of feminism wasnt so much from the men as it was from the majority of the women, who the minority dragged into the feminist way of life against their will. How many feminists that have been in the news do you know married and had a happy life? family? i can name pages of non feminists who have. Feminism, the Noble Lie. Turnabout The State Of Feminism Today here is another good one Hang Male-Bashing Out to Dry if you google feminism you can find literally volumes of articles and essays on it and the greater majority talk about the tragic effects that feminism has had on society as a whole. that was just 3 of them.

cloudboy -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/21/2006 7:42:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne This hatred of feminism wasnt so much from the men as it was from the majority of the women, who the minority dragged into the feminist way of life against their will. How many feminists that have been in the news do you know married and had a happy life? family? i can name pages of non feminists who have. I'll go with Ellen Goodman's rebuttal on this one: >Well, the change agent in any relationship is likely to produce conflict. As Nock says, ''Whether you are striving for equality in the law or in a relationship, it's going to be a challenge. The question is whether it's worth it." What if women had never raised expectations? Feminists began pushing men for more openness and family involvement a generation ago. Wilcox acknowledges, ''Men who have taken that message are the men who are most likely to have happy wives." Progressive women pressed, demanded -- dare I say nagged? -- for the benefits that are now also reaped by more traditional wives. And let's remember how many husbands have already become full and equal partners in their family lives. We are in the midst of a long and bumpy era of social change where the relationships between men and women are in flux and marriages may change or end. Women who expect equality are not likely to heed the old Archie Bunker line: ''Stifle yourself, Edith." Indeed, women at the demanding, cutting edge may eventually be the ones who reduce the divorce rate rather than raising the unhappiness index. So the question is not whether women should lower their expectations. It's whether men will kick it up another notch. To the current generation of wives, here's an update on my friend's advice: Speak up, speak up, your daughters' ''semi-traditional" marriages may depend on it.< http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/03/17/redefining_marital_happiness/ quote: the tragic effects that feminism has had on society as a whole You have got to be kidding here, right? You act as if feminism has lead to the degradation of our environment, moral values, economic output, and overall public safety. "Tragic effects," LOL, that's a good one. You have taken hyperbole to a whole new level.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/21/2006 8:26:06 AM)
Who are all these rich feminists? I keep asking you for examples, and you keep refusing to provide them. From what I've seen, women who get rich writing politically oriented books tend to be conservatives. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Hmm many a feminist/misandrist/pissed off bitch has got herself rich and well known by writing a provocative book that if mirrored by a male would be condemned as misogynist..

thetammyjo -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/21/2006 8:45:53 AM)
I think to truly benefit from your quotations you need to note that you've used one person, Robin Morgan, multiple times. Maybe you have a problem with her; I know many feminist who do. You also need to note whether or not that person is a feminist, what type of feminism she follows, when the statement was made, and in what context. Otherwise I could cite numerous "Christian" statements that are equally as nasty about women, about minorities, about politics and about other religions and claim all Christians are this way. I'm guessing you wouldn't like that, would you? quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross You're playing the same hyperbole card you tried before and it's just as irrelevant.. "All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French, Author, "The Women's Room" "I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, MS. Magazine Editor "I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which a man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it." -- Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan "I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan "Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin "And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference." -- Susan Griffin "Rape: The All-American Crime" "The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson "Amazon Odyssey" (p. 86) "When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..." -- Sheila Jeffrys In order to raise children with equality, we must take them away from families and communally raise them." (Dr. Mary Jo Bane, feminist and assistant professor of education at Wellesley College and associate director of the school's Center for Research on Woman). "The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist." -U.S. National organization for Women Times. "The end of the institution of marriage is a necessary condition for the liberation of women. Therefore it is important for us to encourage women to leave their husbands..." -Declaration of Feminism "A good part-and definitely the most fun part-of being a feminist is about frightening men." --Julie Burchill (b. 1960), British journalist, author. Time Out (London, 16 Nov. 1989). ...rape is the perfected act of male sexuality in a patriarchal culture-- it is the ultimate metaphor for domination, violence, subjugation, and possession. -- Robin Morgan The list is endless. Osama bin laden is hardly hyperbole. He's a pussy cat!

amayos -> RE: Is Elise Sutton right? (3/21/2006 9:28:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo Otherwise I could cite numerous "Christian" statements that are equally as nasty about women, about minorities, about politics and about other religions and claim all Christians are this way. I know I will never forget Jerry Falwell stating how the attack on the world trade center was essentially God's punishment for it being ungodly.

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