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The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/23/2006 10:27:12 PM

Aimtoplease101

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From: San Diego, California
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An odd dynamic at munches and other BDSM community events is the tension created by the presence of: (a) men who are dominant towards women; and (b) men who are submissive towards women, but not submissive towards men.

How do groups deal with this situation?

ATP

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RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/23/2006 10:50:30 PM

ShadeDiva

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From: Sacramento, California
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Odd I've never noticed any such tension.

Unless of course you have a dominant male that doesn't accept dominant females at a dominant female only munch. (or vice versa)

In which case there really isn't any tension - the guy just looks like a moron.

We have oodles of munches in my area (which is large by my definition of local lol) that are pansexual - and I've never seen any tension for those reasons at all.

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RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/23/2006 11:09:46 PM

Petruchio

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I've 'felt' what Aim mentions, definitely a tension between males. I've not felt tension from dommes who are usually more welcoming and besides, I like woman, all women.

But aim has a point: Most doms (including me) don't understand sub males and sub males seem to be at the bottom of the totem pole: sub-Fs are greatly respected, sub-Ms are not. You see this dynamic in the animal world, too. It's got to be tough to be male and submissive, I would think.

From a dom-dom perspective, sometimes we're like bantam roosters or two pitbulls dropped in the pen: The fur on the back of our necks comes up. (laughing) I don't know WHY that is, just that biology happens.

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RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/23/2006 11:45:27 PM

seaturtle50

Posts: 382
Joined: 12/28/2005
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quote:

I've 'felt' what Aim mentions, definitely a tension between males. I've not felt tension from dommes who are usually more welcoming and besides, I like woman, all women.

But aim has a point: Most doms (including me) don't understand sub males and sub males seem to be at the bottom of the totem pole: sub-Fs are greatly respected, sub-Ms are not. You see this dynamic in the animal world, too. It's got to be tough to be male and submissive, I would think.

From a dom-dom perspective, sometimes we're like bantam roosters or two pitbulls dropped in the pen: The fur on the back of our necks comes up. (laughing) I don't know WHY that is, just that biology happens.

Petruchio, you should get to know some of us! We are actually pretty easy to understand. i have been surrounded by Domly males all of my life <mostly in a business context> and although i have also had to but heads with some of them from time to time, it really is not that different dealing with them than with anyone else in my life.

In my case, most of the Dom personality males that know me would likely never suspect my submissive nature - yet i can often tell that they just "don't get me" either. In a competative environment <professional sales> i am certain that they would prefer not to know that it is a submissive male that just kicked their but.

Anyone who would consider me at the bottom of the pecking order just because of my orientation <not that i mind that consideration - everyone has an opinion> would not seem to me to be much worth my time or respect. From my perspective - it is not tough at all to be a submissive male ... just seems sort of ... natural

If anyone would not get along with me due to my being my natural self - oh well.

Animal world?
st50

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RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 12:40:15 AM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aimtoplease101

An odd dynamic at munches and other BDSM community events is the tension created by the presence of: (a) men who are dominant towards women; and (b) men who are submissive towards women, but not submissive towards men.

How do groups deal with this situation?

ATP

Since I don't know of any munches where there is play and people at the munches I attend are generally mature, I haven't observed any tension.

Oh, there is an occasional newbie who isn't sure on how to behave but that is quickly corrected. In fact, I can't recall a munch where anyone has been asked to leave.

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RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 2:05:07 AM

phoenix1

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Joined: 1/7/2006
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this one never noticed that problem before... everyone always appearred to be having a great time, no tension at all...

(in reply to Aimtoplease101)

Post #: 6

RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 3:10:26 AM

SimplyV

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Joined: 11/5/2005
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I haven't seen this so much at munches, but then I haven't been to too many yet. I did notice that collared male subs have it easier than non-collared male subs. I think the fact that their collared either puts them at ease in the situation or others consider it a sign of respectability?

I have however noticed it online and have heard more than once that male subs are on the bottom of the totem pole. Mostly I have heard this from Gorean or Gorean-esque Doms, but its been pretty prevalent. I think I see it more online because there are more idiots online attempting to be "cool" and "knowledgeable" course that usually backfires once they open their mouths.

To me.. its like a man wearing a pink shirt... Some might call him gay (aka my father would), but it takes a man to be comfortable in his own skin to be able to wear it with confidence. Such like submitting... It takes some balls to pull that off successfully.

(in reply to Aimtoplease101)

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RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 4:23:36 AM

Guilty1974

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From: Den Haag
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I attend loads of parties with play, and I haven't felt this particular tension at all. If I've noted any tension, it is rather like Petruchio's last point: a tension between Dominant males acting like roosters in a hen house.

(in reply to SimplyV)

Post #: 8

RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 4:28:30 AM

Lashra

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I think submales aren't at the bottom of the totem pole and no not even in the animal kingdom. When an ape alpha male has committed some atrocity say killed a member of the community, if the females don't like this, they will turn to the sub males and have them do away with the alpha male replacing him with another of their choosing.

I think those guys who have a problem with submales could be *closeted submales* themselves, or maybe they are just jealous. Jealous because the submale guy is comfortable enough with himself and who he is that he doesn't have to put on airs about being the big dominant male.

Not all females are impressed by a male posturing and strutting around with his chest puffed out, mumbling about his superiority in some sort of brutish tongue. And should he call me *girl* he'll get my size 9 boot straight up his behind. No girl here, I'm all woman.

Lashra

(in reply to SimplyV)

Post #: 9

RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 4:53:08 AM

IronBear

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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I attend the odd regular munch and infrequently head off to Club Lib. to spend time with a few friends, enjoy the ambience, and even the rare social dinner evening (all either BDSM Lifestyle or Gorean Lifestyle). Adoittedly I don't attend play parties so have no knowledge what goes on there. I've seen some tension dynamics occurring, but usually it's between specific people rather than a general situation. Having said that, there can be some initial tension when Doms/Masters congregate unless they already know each other. This is more likely when a few Gorean Free Men get together. Potentially this is as much of a male thing and can become a pissing contest until each one defines in the minds of the other their right to be there and to be respected as a non submissive. After that most males will simply avoid those who they don't like. It tends to be the immature one who want to push things..

"You gotta play the game. It’s all in the game and how you play it!"

< Message edited by IronBear -- 2/24/2006 4:54:25 AM >

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RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 5:07:41 AM

thetammyjo

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Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aimtoplease101

An odd dynamic at munches and other BDSM community events is the tension created by the presence of: (a) men who are dominant towards women; and (b) men who are submissive towards women, but not submissive towards men.

How do groups deal with this situation?

ATP

People are in role and trying to scene at your munches?

How odd.

I thought munches were supposed to be a casual space where you eat food, meet others face-to-face to know you aren't alone, chat, and maybe make friends.

Granted cliques can and do form at munches especially among regular attendees but still why is it anyone's place to try and force others (verbally and with body language I'm assuming) to accept others as submissive or dominant?

The only reason I can think of why such tension might exist is a lack of inner confidence and the need to try to make people see you as you see yourself. Not particularly attractive qualities in any person.

I mean, if someone feels so threatened by another person's role or identity that they must try and "fix" them or counter them I'd have to question the threatened person's maturity level. If some feels so threatened by other dynamics maybe they need to stop attending the general munch and start their own very specific one.

Geesh, is this like junior high school or what?

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RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 5:11:55 AM

topcat

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Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
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Dear ATP-

I haven't seen this- are you sure you aren't just veiwing the attitudes of a jerk or two as the standard of behavior?

Stay warm,
Lawrence

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Post #: 12

RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 5:19:05 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Geesh, is this like junior high school or what?

Hi Tammyjo,

Me thinks you need an education of Aussies in a pub (particurly Aussie males ~ not Men but males) when they are pissy........ Maturity is left at home..

"You gotta play the game. It’s all in the game and how you play it!"

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

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RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 5:51:09 AM

Prunesquallor

Posts: 181
Joined: 10/12/2005
Status: offline

I've only been to a couple of munches, but the thing I really liked about them was the *lack* of tension between the males. Unlike a vanilla context, where there is often an underlying tension.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 14

RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 5:57:51 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aimtoplease101

An odd dynamic at munches and other BDSM community events is the tension created by the presence of: (a) men who are dominant towards women; and (b) men who are submissive towards women, but not submissive towards men.

How do groups deal with this situation?

ATP

We don't. We just let people be people, welcome and talk with everyone.

Luckily we're in an area where there's a gazillion munches to choose from, each with their own flavor and quirk. But at the one I frequent most, the BESS munches, it's a huge mix of people and orientations and everyone just chats with everyone. There's NO expectation of behavior based on orientation beyond your own relationship, so everyone relaxes and enjoys.

I actually tend to feel more tension at munches where it's exclusively one orientation focused. Feels more like a dating ring.

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(in reply to Aimtoplease101)

Post #: 15

RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 6:31:06 AM

BeeQueen

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

I think submales aren't at the bottom of the totem pole and no not even in the animal kingdom. When an ape alpha male has committed some atrocity say killed a member of the community, if the females don't like this, they will turn to the sub males and have them do away with the alpha male replacing him with another of their choosing.

I think those guys who have a problem with submales could be *closeted submales* themselves, or maybe they are just jealous. Jealous because the submale guy is comfortable enough with himself and who he is that he doesn't have to put on airs about being the big dominant male.

Not all females are impressed by a male posturing and strutting around with his chest puffed out, mumbling about his superiority in some sort of brutish tongue. And should he call me *girl* he'll get my size 9 boot straight up his behind. No girl here, I'm all woman.

Lashra

love ur post

:)

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 16

RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 6:37:15 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aimtoplease101

An odd dynamic at munches and other BDSM community events is the tension created by the presence of: (a) men who are dominant towards women; and (b) men who are submissive towards women, but not submissive towards men.

How do groups deal with this situation?

ATP

I think to some degree that would happen because of the culture of the munch. No munch is alike and they all reflect whats important to the person running it as well as the regulars. I intentionally try to make my munch very casual because I don't want any pontificating or bullshit like that which can cause the kind of clashes your question deals with.

C~

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RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 6:43:32 AM

Guilty1974

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From: Den Haag
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LashraI think those guys who have a problem with submales could be *closeted submales* themselves, or maybe they are just jealous.

Or just plain homophobic.

Roel

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 18

RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 6:47:08 AM

BeeQueen

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/29/2005
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all replies i seen to this post are kinda personalized..oh i havent...how odd in ur area they do...blah blah...wich is already the center of the problem.

everyone likes to think they r unique and something special, while we are all following a ruleset for acting. weather that ruleset was gained by socializing during childhood or in peer groups.

yes there can bee tension, yes there will bee problems if certain persons in a group (if munch or peer group or whatever kind of group) try to rule.

now how to deal with it?
that will depend most likly on the regulars. the ppl that gained a kinda respect for beeing there regularly , or having part in the organisation. if those r kinda layed back and easy you can expect that there wont bee any problem, couse they will make sure that ppl that interrupt the munch / talk /meeting/play are put in their place rather quick.

if the regulars r off the same kind as the suspected interrupter, there will bee a fight, couse the group pressure will make them act superior/ordering/mandatory.

generally i have seen diffrent kind of *odd* beehaviors in non play meetings/munches
.) sub male that try to pick up a domme
.) dom male that try to run the show
.) fem that tries to run the show (funny enough its usually sub fems that try that)
.) dom males that dont get along with sub males (suspect that they feel challenged in their male status by the sub male)
.) dom males that cant respect female dominance couse they think that female per se has to bee submissive (often comes along with the try to turn dominant femals and convince them that they r submissive)

i hardly ever seen that anyone got kicked out (most left volunteerly when they saw there is no place for their headstrongness)....and seldom i saw a discussion over it that lasted longer than 30 min.
guest r asked to respect other ppls orientation, and regulars are reminded that its not their place to put others down.

i highly respect submissive ppl, that have the heart and spirit to live their passion, while i have close to no tolerance for *dominant* characters that think that loudness and posing has to bee part of their dominance

PS: im not sure if what i wrote is clear enough - its hard to put a concept from german into english - since the thoughts about the subject itselfe are hard enough to think through in your native lang

(in reply to Aimtoplease101)

Post #: 19

RE: The problem with mixing men at munches - 2/24/2006 8:11:10 AM

yourMissTress

Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

I've seen this at BDSM events, clubs, and play parties. There are some men that want desperately to be respected and be viewed as dominant. They don't have clue what it is or means to be dominant. They mistake submissive males as less than themselves and submissive women as easy because of the submissive title and see them all as easy marks or prey. They come into this world and hear titles and words and have no idea what they mean. But they like the idea of someone calling them master and bowing to them so the adopt the title.

OK, don't jump me yet...there are women that do exactly the same thing.

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Post #: 20

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