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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Health care is not a right.  It is not a constitutional right nor is it a fundamental human right.  You may have the right to life but not at the expense of someone else while you have done nothing to pay for it yourself. 

According to the UNs Universal Declaration of Human Rights, I would disagree with you
"
Article 25.

• (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

The US is part of the UN is it not, how come its jus not happening for ya?

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ORIGINAL: DCWoody

"Health care is not a right.  It is not a constitutional right nor is it a fundamental human right"

I personally.....and I think most of the civilised world, would disagree with that. If it isn't a right, it should be.

Having said that.....extreme as your opinion may seem to me, if you really think like that then I guess it's just a difference of opinon....so that brings up a third option of 'leave it as it is people shouldn't get healthcare unless they can pay for it'.

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

You know...if just once you could come up with something from a site that is really non-partisan or at the very least moderate in nature, your stuff would be a lot more credible.  But what you cite above comes from a "progressive" think tank whose goals are in line with what used to be called "liberal" thought until the term "liberal" fell out of favor.  The term that is favorable?  "Progressive".  A term that has come to mean "progress on the the road to socialism".

Well, let me see if I understand this.

I was responding to someone who claimed, without any source, that the problems of the U.S. health care system would be solved by tort reform.

I responded with a documented source.

Yet, I am the one who lacks credibility because you do not approve of the source?

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Bring us something from sites that deal with those involved in health care, those involved in dealing with the issues of health care and not from lawyers concerned with protecting their rice bowl and not from politicians eager to see a system in place that someone else gets to pay for.

Well, since you are the one disputing the source and the facts contained wouldn't it it fall on you to bring us something that proves your point?

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Health care is not a right.  It is not a constitutional right nor is it a fundamental human right.  You may have the right to life but not at the expense of someone else while you have done nothing to pay for it yourself.  For the poor, there are programs in place.  For the elderly, there are programs in place.  Ask any healthcare provider...myself included...just how well those systems work and then ask most of us...though certainly not all...why we look with suspicion at the idea of the government stepping in to run an insurance program for everyone else.

It never ceases to amaze me that those who claim owning a gun is a fundamental human right guaranteed by the Constitution then go on to to claim that health care is not.

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No matter how much some "progressives" would like to see this country follow the ideal of "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs", it is not set up that way.  The majority of people will not work as hard to succeed and care for others at the cost of what he can give to his own family.

Yes, I'll get mine and fuck everyone else.

Great philosophy.

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ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Maybe all y'all can help me understand this, but I really, truly don't understand -what- is wrong with taking care of our neighbors, making sure our people have decent healthcare, and a minimally healthy standard of living. I don't grasp why we cannot dictate that our government be allowed to provide the necessary centralization. I don't comprehend why there is even an argument about whether this is necessary or proper. We waste money on so many other things, I simply cannot understand the mentality that would argue that human beings -- FELLOW-- human beings, do not deserve to have a minimally healthy, minimally well nourished, minimally sheltered life. I simply cannot grasp the mentality that would say "I'm not going to give a -damned- thing to anyone else, and let them all just frigging suffer."

DC

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
You know...if just once you could come up with something from a site that is really non-partisan or at the very least moderate in nature, your stuff would be a lot more credible.  But what you cite above comes from a "progressive" think tank whose goals are in line with what used to be called "liberal" thought until the term "liberal" fell out of favor.  The term that is favorable?  "Progressive".  A term that has come to mean "progress on the the road to socialism".  Bring us something from sites that deal with those involved in health care, those involved in dealing with the issues of health care and not from lawyers concerned with protecting their rice bowl and not from politicians eager to see a system in place that someone else gets to pay for. 

Health care is not a right.  It is not a constitutional right nor is it a fundamental human right.  You may have the right to life but not at the expense of someone else while you have done nothing to pay for it yourself.  For the poor, there are programs in place.  For the elderly, there are programs in place.  Ask any healthcare provider...myself included...just how well those systems work and then ask most of us...though certainly not all...why we look with suspicion at the idea of the government stepping in to run an insurance program for everyone else.

No matter how much some "progressives" would like to see this country follow the ideal of "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs", it is not set up that way.  The majority of people will not work as hard to succeed and care for others at the cost of what he can give to his own family.

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ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Very well stated, Dame Calla. I think we have hit the tipping point in US society on this issue because so many working class and middle class citizens are now facing the same problems with access to food, health care, and housing that the poor and working poor have due to the recession. Problems that seemed far away and distant have now become up close and personal.

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ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Maybe all y'all can help me understand this, but I really, truly don't understand -what- is wrong with taking care of our neighbors, making sure our people have decent healthcare, and a minimally healthy standard of living. I don't grasp why we cannot dictate that our government be allowed to provide the necessary centralization. I don't comprehend why there is even an argument about whether this is necessary or proper. We waste money on so many other things, I simply cannot understand the mentality that would argue that human beings -- FELLOW-- human beings, do not deserve to have a minimally healthy, minimally well nourished, minimally sheltered life. I simply cannot grasp the mentality that would say "I'm not going to give a -damned- thing to anyone else, and let them all just frigging suffer."

DC

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There is nothing similar to compare or adopt from any foreign health care program because all lack the fundamental piece unique to the US - the US civil tort system. Civil litigation and the associated 'risk management' is the single biggest expense and consideration of any private health care program or facility. Unless it is amended or goes away, it will continue to make costs spiral regardless of any plan.

With that consideration what I want is a clear program with a budget and a goal on the table that enables pragmatic debate.

Either in summary or as specific provisions I want to see defined in the Bill:

• Who qualifies as a user
  
• What qualifies as 'care'
  
• What is excluded
  
• How it integrates with current employee insurance programs
  
• How it compares and contrasts to existing Medicaid/Medicare coverage
  
• Form of treatment 'authorization'
  
• Limits to treatment waiting time
  
• Budgeted cost of expected litigation as a percentage of cost
  
• What it will cost the taxpayer
  
• What it will cost the user
  
• What it will cost businesses
  
• Mandatory program benchmarking reviews requiring renewal
  
• Inclusion of all Federal employees including Congress
  
• Quarterly audits of expenditures
  
• Significant civil and criminal penalties for any fraud and/or abuse of the program perpetrated by the vendors and the users.

Any Bill that includes the terms "single payer", "public option", "insurance marketplace exchange"; requiring 1000 pages to define them, doesn't qualify.

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ORIGINAL: DCWoody

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ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The 1st thing on my list would be sure that the estimated 12 million illegal aliens now in this country are not covered by whatever plan is adopted. They are not supposed to be here and shouldn't be covered by those who are here legally..

I had kind of taken that as a given....but, you guys are weird with your immigrants.

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ORIGINAL: SilverMark

I spend entirely too much time reading all about health care in our fair country....those who are against any type of public system seem to think the system as is, works???? It does if you are affluent enough to pay for it through insurance....yet, those who cannot afford or are excluded from coverage are to be left to wither away. We don't want end of life planning....it might kill Grandma but, it's ok if all of you working poor that don't qualify for or cannot afford health insurance....go ahead die....see who really cares....
Amazing to me....They system is screwed up...let's hear from those who disagree with some form of public healthcare or insurance reform....what are your ideas?...if you have so much criticism for those who support reform....what alternative do you have?,,,is no solution needed....is there not a problem?

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ORIGINAL: rightwinghippie

Lorr, I wonder the same thing myself. After 911 national Health Care could have been institutied for the threat of Bio Terorism, as well as border controll. Require participation and cross it with Security. Drug testing, everyones sexuall history, mental history, everything all in one file. Bush could have become the dictator he kept being accused of being.

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Well CD, sadly I've seen far too many of the "dedicated practitioners of the healing arts" who have your same outlook, more concerned with the paycheck than with the patient.

Seems as if the Hippocratic Oath has become the hypocrite's oath.

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Well CD, sadly I've seen far too many of the "dedicated practitioners of the healing arts" who have your same outlook, more concerned with the paycheck than with the patient.

Seems as if the Hippocratic Oath has become the hypocrite's oath.

Don't run that tired old bullshit argument by me.  That argument is used often by your side to show us up as greedy people only out to make a buck when the truth is, we are human like everyone else...including you...and while we do care about our work---in this case, human beings---we also care about our families and ourselves and we prefer to be paid fully for what we do.

I do note though that once again, you used the old liberal...excuse me, progressive...tactic of not answering the question but instead, supplying an insult to me.  Now, let's hear your answer to the question...whatever rate you make hourly, or whatever salary you make...would you care to have it cut several times a day?

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Well CD, sadly I've seen far too many of the "dedicated practitioners of the healing arts" who have your same outlook, more concerned with the paycheck than with the patient.

Seems as if the Hippocratic Oath has become the hypocrite's oath.

Don't run that tired old bullshit argument by me.  That argument is used often by your side to show us up as greedy people only out to make a buck when the truth is, we are human like everyone else...including you...and while we do care about our work---in this case, human beings---we also care about our families and ourselves and we prefer to be paid fully for what we do.

I do note though that once again, you used the old liberal...excuse me, progressive...tactic of not answering the question but instead, supplying an insult to me.  Now, let's hear your answer to the question...whatever rate you make hourly, or whatever salary you make...would you care to have it cut several times a day?

No, let's not pretend you are a factory worker, then again for all I know you might be.

You entered a profession for a reason.

Hopefully that reason wasn't how much money you could make.  Because there are far more more lucrative careers.

In your case it seems to be, as every health care discussion on these boards I have seen you participate in the issue for you comes down to how much you are paid.

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ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Lets see the page number in this 1000 + page bill that says illegals will not be covered. If it were in there now they would be out there proving the doubters wrong. I don't believe them.