RE: Einstein On God (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 9:49:08 AM)

Some men contemplate their navels,
others; their foreskins.

'Buddah'

Einstein, contemplating neither, died of an aneurism. (or aneuryism, both are acceptable).

You may quote me.


GAWD!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love this town.



Arpig -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 10:04:52 AM)

quote:

It is a bit more complicated than that. Ask my archiver FullCircle for a quote of my post in which I explain the causality.
I have read your various posts on the topic and have yet to see anything that even vaguly approachs proof or even anything to suggest a connection, well except that we should just take your word for it since you are a super-genius, something else we just have to take your word for.



kdsub -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 10:05:30 AM)

God has destroyed your link



kdsub -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 10:51:13 AM)

I have been wondering the purpose of this thread and many others you have posted. Is it your purpose to destroy others faith in a God…if so for what reason? Do you think if mankind turned away from religion that wars would stop…men would come to their senses and live in peace and harmony? Or could it be you are no different than the religious fanatics you rant against but with just a different point of view. Just as determined to force your beliefs on others.

As for this thread I can only comment that Einstein was not an atheist…he was conflicted as to the true nature of God. He did not believe in a personal God but did not doubt the possibility of Gods existence…I for one am also not sure of the existence of a personal God yet I call myself religious.

So if this thread is to provide proof to your personal belief that religion and God are mumbo jumbo then I can’t see where it helped you.

It seems that many great thinkers of the past were conflicted on the purpose of God and his existence but at least they were thinking and not claiming absolute knowledge of Gods existence and their place in the universe.

Butch



Esinn -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 11:24:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Einstein said a lot of things in relation to God



In comparison to his works Einstein said very little about god, very few serious theoretical physicists do.  However, when he(or Hawking or Susskind) say something christianity could put a positive spin on they trumpet in on every front page available to their marketing machine.

Most people probably never knew these papers existed.  This is a forum about religion and these papers discovered last year are of a religious nature.

"God does not play dice" is often a quote ripped out of context, I gave a little background on this quote.

christians and Muslims use it frequently.  I have seen LDS use it at least once too. Which religion uses it really depends upon the personal religion of the editor.  They all end almost always with the same conclusion: if _________(insert your theoretical physicist/non-religious scientist) believed in god surly Allah(insert your god) is the true god.




GotSteel -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 11:34:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Is it your purpose to destroy others faith in a God…if so for what reason?



I'd like to convince my fellow Americans to have less faith in faith, the whole turning the USA into a christian nation thing has been making me twitch.



Esinn -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 11:49:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
As for this thread I can only comment that Einstein was not an atheist…he was conflicted as to the true nature of God. He did not believe in a personal God but did not doubt the possibility of Gods existence…I for one am also not sure of the existence of a personal


I accept and believe in the god of Einstein.  However, it is a poor use of the word.  I detailed this in a thread 1-2 months back.  I can look for it if you boss me around a little.  Any intelligent person would who is non-christian or a non-theist and does not accept this god is silly..  This god is not discussed in ancient scripture, it was not known by ancient man who invented most modern religions. It did not dwell outside of the known.  It is not beyond question, investigation or criticism by logical or scientific means.  It did not create the universe with 'intelligent' intentions.  It did not create earth as a testing ground for humans as a place to demonstrate their value so they get into heaven(nor did it create it so those could demonstrate their sinful nature to be tortured in hell).  It was nothing remotely close, not by any speculation, to Allah or jesus.  It is non empathetic, unconcerned and uncaring.  It does not care about, listen to or command prayer or worship.  In fact, it can not hear(it has no ears). It does not look like me(it might be a good thing) it does not look like you.  It does not read our minds or violate its own natural law. As you mentioned - it is not personal. 

It is not magical or 'all powerful'.  However, she is beautiful, amazing and inspiritional.  She is worthy of investigation understanding acknoledgement.  If you are so driven to awe to meditate upon it and consider this worship - I feel ya.  There is no reason to assume we will not be able to fully get inside her, manipulate and molest her for our enjoyment to make this universe a better place.  Science, not the modern day gods, have been doing this for hundreds of years.  You ought to be grateful.

A christian who accepts this god will be sent to hell - the same with a mormon.  A muslim who accepts it would be beheaded, logically so is this is what their scripture say.

When Einstein, Hawking, Susskind - even Brian Cox?  Talk about god it is a poetic description of natural law.  The same is true when you hear about linguistical place holders commonly used in scientific study like 'The God Particle'.  Although not religious but another example of this type of scientific place holder is: Dark Matter.

I am sorry this is an extremely atheistic god.  By modern day understanding of what god is - whatever it is. . . .  It is no god at all.  It is simply poetic use of language.



FullCircle -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 12:17:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
"God does not play dice" is often a quote ripped out of context, I gave a little background on this quote.

Well he said that in relation to the probability aspect of quantum mechanics. Not being happy that you could only say there was a certain probability of this particle existing at this given time.

The fact is though in that example he is assuming the answers when found are definite not vague i.e. you'll know when you find the correct answer because it was designed to be found. I personally can't interpret what he said there any other way.

The fact he thinks answers were designed to be obvious when found is part of his faith and can't be disproven one way or another.



mnottertail -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 12:26:32 PM)

Die Alte Eine,

In Einstein's view, was simply and only the grand unification theory found and refined to fact.



Kirata -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 12:47:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

Let's take care not to throw out the baby with the bathwater...

"The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that there is."

~Einstein's speech 'My Credo' to the German League of Human Rights, Berlin, autumn 1932, Einstein: A Life in Science, Michael White and John Gribbin, Page 262.

K.



kdsub -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 12:55:44 PM)

Just so long as you base your conclusions on supposition and not absolute fact you are of course entitled to your beliefs as we are all...but you have not answered why you feel it so important to tear down others beliefs with such fervor.

Butch



NorthernGent -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 1:02:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

This is only new news if you live in a bubble.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/may/12/peopleinscience.religion/print

In the letter, he states: "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."





Perhaps.....though religion is far from the definitive example of human weakness. Look around you mate.

How can a human construct display anything other than weakness.....assuming you believe humans are not virtuous?



Esinn -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 1:13:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

Let's take care not to throw out the baby with the bathwater...

"The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that there is."

~Einstein's speech 'My Credo' to the German League of Human Rights, Berlin, autumn 1932, Einstein: A Life in Science, Michael White and John Gribbin, Page 262.

K.


Yes, yes I know this is not absolutely relevant.  But, In regards to dat there quote  I think.

It is not necessary to be religious to experience mystery.  It is dangerous to assume your conceptual experience explains mystery and is fact/evidence based.  Most religions I have encountered are not particluary fond of scientific inquiry into their religion.  Where I bet mystery  welcomes it - she might(who knows though - she is mysterious.)  Psychology and neuroscience understand these profound feelings people often correlate to being divine connections to their god.  These experiences or examinations into mystery are not 'divine'.  Nor is a special direct connections to the individuals specific god in the sky present.  Instead they are important human experiences which unlike religion does not build walls.  This type of exploration might knock them down.

I do not believe religion ever makes any effort to understand mystery - god is the mystery.  The fact it is mysterious allows child like imagination to go to work too often.  As science strips the mystery from religion it looses power & places to hide.  Spirituality or such exploration of the mysterious might attempt to understand.  I believe this is relevant only to the individual seeking(not out side their mind).  I see some 'spiritual' value there.  It is not my personal cup-o-tea though.

Edit:
Now let's make the quote relevant to the subject.  Einsteins religion. . .   Is an atheistic religion - awe, love, inspiration and somehow a profound feeling of personal connection with nature.  In 1932 we did not have neuroscience like we do now.  These feelings were still mysterious.

You can quote all the stuff you want.  It does not come close to any modern day religion.  In fact many catholic churches and christians hated Einstein and labeled him as an atheist. I'd suggest you study the guy. 






Esinn -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 1:28:22 PM)

“I do not believe in a personal God and have never denied this but have expressed it clearly”

I am not suggesting Einstein was an atheist.  If he is or is not is not something I care about.  I was simply demonstrating with this thread how modern day religion loves to rip from context quotes then use them to support their ideas
I am absolutely saying there is no chance, not even on the hottest day in heaven, Einstein was not anything remotely close to a christian/muslim/mormon like modern day quote mining of theism would love you to believe.
jesus would have spit on Einstein and sent him to hellAllah would have chopped off his head(If they were real)



Esinn -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 1:59:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just so long as you base your conclusions on supposition and not absolute fact you are of course entitled to your beliefs as we are all...but you have not answered why you feel it so important to tear down others beliefs with such fervor.

Butch



I have addressed my numerous concerns with faith multiple times.  Let's stick to Einstein for 5-10 more posts.

I'd suggest you read and learn about Einstein.
http://www.amazon.com/Einstein-Life-Universe-Walter-Isaacson/dp/0743264746/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251405180&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Genius-Einstein-Trailblazer-Biographies/dp/1575050676/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251405330&sr=1-2


I gave the example of the 'god particle'(which is relevant) then of  dark matter(to demonstrate linguistical placeholders), 2 book above, obvious disdane for modern religion from these letters - much more can be found, examples of others who have used the word god in similar fashion of Einstein.  Einstein was under constant attack from the catholic(christian church too I believe) for his ideas devalued and did not conform with theirs.  I am not sure what you want me to do?  If you want to discuss this outline a few ideas, like I have, why Einsteins religious view were not in direct conflict with modern/ancient religious views.  As I did give a brief description of why you felt this was Einsteins religion.

There is a lot of literature and information which discuss the religion of Einstein.  It is not a quick study though.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1607298,00.html
(I cut, paste and edited the article below to convey some points.  I left the I am not an atheist in to show my editing was not bias).
Keep in mind this is a difficult study looking at one link will not solve it.  However, I have said enough and would like to hear a few key points from you

quote:

"What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos," he explained. In fact, Einstein tended to be more critical of debunkers, who seemed to lack humility or a sense of awe, than of the faithful."

To what extent are you influenced by Christianity? "As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene." You accept the historical existence of Jesus? "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life." Do you believe in God? "I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds.. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."
Is this a Jewish concept of God? "I am a determinist. I do not believe in free will. Jews believe in free will. They believe that man shapes his own life. I reject that doctrine. In that respect I am not a Jew."

Is this Spinoza's God? "I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but I admire even more his contribution to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and body as one, and not two separate things."
Do you believe in immortality? "No. And one life is enough for me."



Brain -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 2:50:31 PM)


Because God is a lie and like Tom Cruise said 'we want the truth!'
and like George Carlin said,' they pay no taxes and they always want a little more.'

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just so long as you base your conclusions on supposition and not absolute fact you are of course entitled to your beliefs as we are all...but you have not answered why you feel it so important to tear down others beliefs with such fervor.

Butch





Kirata -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 2:55:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

God is a lie...

Religion Alert:

More crap, different priest.

K.



Rule -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 3:00:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
jesus would have spit on Einstein and sent him to hell
Allah would have chopped off his head (If they were real)

Assumptions. It has been 22 years since I read the Bible, but I can recall only one instance of Jesus spitting: on the ground or in his own hand, I believe, in order to cure a blind person. Jesus also strikes me as a progressive person, revolutionizing religion as he did, trying to convert the Jews to a better religion. So, it is far more likely that he would have been curious about Einstein's discoveries.

As for Allah, his identity is a bit dubious. Myself, I am inclined to believe that this name refers to the Creator - who is not the god of the Jews, nor of the Muslims (misunderstandings abound; it is a propensity of ordinary people). The Creator would be very much interested in Einstein's ideas - and he would have told him that his theory of general relativity sucks. No, Allah would definitely not have chopped off Einstein's head; he might have offered him a position, though.



Brain -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 3:12:43 PM)

Religion is stupid and ridiculous and it all starts with stupidity like this below:

President Medvedev is a Buddhist goddess

His 'divinity' became apparent during a visit to a monastery in eastern Siberia

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/6098619/President-Medvedev-is-a-Buddhist-goddess.html



thishereboi -> RE: Einstein On God (8/27/2009 5:01:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

God is a lie...

Religion Alert:

More crap, different priest.

K.


Are you sure it's a different one? Personally, I am not.

Oh, but I totally agree on the crap part.[:)]



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