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Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/27/2009 3:04:15 PM   
Esinn


Posts: 886
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		I would imagine this will not be of interest to many, it is complicated.  I do not understad the vast majority of it but am still interested.

This is one of the first ID arguments which were published in a peer reviewed journal - especially with subjects so important to the ID platform. 

Obviously everyone understands who Dr.Dembski is. . .  His motivations & what drives him -  ID theory being taught as an equal or companion theory of science.  The article to be reviewed(below) was intentionally gutted and watered down, if it was not no serious journal would publish it.  This theory as he typically presents it (non-gutted) is critical to his work.  My concern the published theory does not represent what he believes.  Rather it represents what he knew had to be done to have 'them'(enemy) publish his article - that make sense? 

It is my opinion he is one of the 10 most influential supporters of the ID theory.  I saw him lecture in Phila. I believe he believes what he teaches.  I think he knows his god is real and he believes science can study his god. He feels he is a champion fighting one of the vile & close minded conspiracies of modern science - the destruction of Intelligent Design.  Less his religion, crazy ideas, bias research, flawed personal values, illogical reasoning(as it relates to his religion) and the fact he wishes to promote irrational thoughts and ideas to the public he was an ultra cool person.  He just has several major flaws but once you pass them you will feel great you know him!

Here is his webpage:
http://www.designinference.com/

Here is the article:
http://marksmannet.com/RobertMarks/REPRINTS/2009_ConservationOfInformationInSearch.pdf

There a total of 4 reviews to up to this point - that I am aware of.  As of date all have dismissed the watered down ideas as trash.  One of the mathematicians who commented said the ideas were not worthy of review - after he reviewed them(Heh).  His point though ID is just out there taking it seriously enough to review it gives it credit it ought not have.

-E.

One of the reviews is posted on Panda's Thumb

< Message edited by Esinn -- 8/27/2009 3:07:17 PM >

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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/27/2009 3:12:02 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		I am so not interested in these ID delusions. Why do you pay any attention to them? Just ignore them like I and most other sensible people do. You will feel better.

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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/27/2009 5:21:33 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I am so not interested in these ID delusions. Why do you pay any attention to them? Just ignore them like I and most other sensible people do. You will feel better.


Really?  I thought all theists would have some interest in ID.  Although it is a christian 'invention' it can be used to establish the existence of any god.  I've not really heard a theist who I believed understood it knock it.  I think a lot of religious people simply do not know what it is(do not know it exists) or do not understand it so they often have nothing to say.  I guess that is very 'assumptive' of me.  But ID makes an attempt using science to demonstrate god is real - why shouldn't a well meaning theist embrace it.  I mean as it is rubbish I am glad you do not....

Based on your posts I would assume you have a good grasp of what it is.  It is fairly obvious why I would consider it rubbish.  But...  how could you?  Is the entire concept of no value to you?  Just too much bad than good?  If you selectively look at it can you pull some points from it you agree with?


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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/27/2009 6:02:42 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
Really?

Yes, really.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
I thought all theists would have some interest in ID.

Neither do I have an idea what a theist is. Sure, we know that the Divine exists; the ancient Egyptians knew that already. Sure, we also know that there are incarnate gods; Apollo and Athena presided at a court case in Greece for gossakes. So what? I also know that rocks exist. Does that make me a rockist? If I say that I know that the sea exist, does that make me a seaist? If a married man says that his wife exists, does that make him a wifeist?

Maybe you are right and - a few - theists have some interest in ID. I do not. I have no interest in nonsense. I only respond to your questions and arguments because you appear to be sincerely confused and lost.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
Although it is a christian 'invention' it can be used to establish the existence of any god.

It cannot. The Divine is 'outside' the universe and thus beyond science as you and they know it. (Not beyond me, though.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
I've not really heard a theist who I believed understood it knock it.

They must be lesser minds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
I think a lot of religious people simply do not know what it is(do not know it exists) or do not understand it so they often have nothing to say.  I guess that is very 'assumptive' of me. 
But ID makes an attempt using science to demonstrate god is real - why shouldn't a well meaning theist embrace it. 

Indeed, it is assumptive of you. Why should any religious person care for that kind of nonsense? Spiritualty has to be experienced; that is the only proof it requires.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
I mean as it is rubbish I am glad you do not....

Ever considered that you might be glad if you also did not pay it any attention?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
Based on your posts I would assume you have a good grasp of what it is.

Based on your posts my conclusion is that you do not understand my posts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
It is fairly obvious why I would consider it rubbish.  But...  how could you? Is the entire concept of no value to you? Just too much bad than good?

By nature I am a hard core scientist. I am interested only in facts, not in nonsense, nor in the delusional interpretations of lesser minds. I never look at advertisements either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
If you selectively look at it can you pull some points from it you agree with?

No. I ain't interested. If you have a fetish for digging in garbage and crap, then by all means enjoy yourself. I won't bother myself.


< Message edited by Rule -- 8/27/2009 6:03:15 PM >

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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/27/2009 6:36:38 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
Really?

Yes, really.


No. I ain't interested. If you have a fetish for digging in garbage and crap, then by all means enjoy yourself. I won't bother myself.



My fetish is understanding everything I can about religion so I can make an intelligent and informed decision on the existence of god.  I'd say it is more than a fetish, it seems to be a passion.  I am just self motivated to learn about important issues most people take with a grain of salt.  Possibly this is god pulling my puppett strings - I make me chuckle.

The biggest pain in the ass though.  Is you can not really just read the bible and understand if you are not already a card carrying member of that faith.  It is important to stay informed on all aspects from the horrid like ID, the history, the cultures, cosmology.....

If god exists I would like to logically not faithfully find her.  I do not think she does.

Theist: a person who believes in a god.  It is just a time saver for me rather than try to identify the individuals religion or personal beliefs..  http://www.google.com keyword:"Define:Theist"  I am not sure what you will get.


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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/27/2009 7:04:20 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
My fetish is understanding everything I can about religion so I can make an intelligent and informed decision on the existence of god. I'd say it is more than a fetish, it seems to be a passion.  I am just self motivated to learn about important issues most people take with a grain of salt.  Possibly this is god pulling my puppett strings - I make me chuckle.

Why is religion an important issue?
Why the anger?
Everybody makes intelligent and informed decisions to the best of their abilities. It doesn't guarantee that their decisions will be the right decisions; au contraire, due to their lack of knowledge and ability. So what is the probability that your intelligent and informed decision will be the right decision? Especially considering that you have no idea what you are talking about, nor any concept about the limitations of logic?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
The biggest pain in the ass though.  Is you can not really just read the bible and understand if you are not already a card carrying member of that faith.

I did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
It is important to stay informed on all aspects from the horrid like ID, the history, the cultures, cosmology.....

It is important to have a good background in science and technology.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
If god exists I would like to logically not faithfully find her. I do not think she does.

Are you looking for a domme? Plenty of them on the other side of CM, as well as a few on this side. Some of them even identify as Goddess-this-or-that.


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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/27/2009 7:44:51 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

Are you looking for a domme? Plenty of them on the other side of CM, as well as a few on this side. Some of them even identify as Goddess-this-or-that.




God is a male?  The most ancient concepts know she is female.  How do you know the sex of god?

Religion is possibly the most important issue.  Although is is almost always the most misunderstood and under investigated issue.  If she is real and she makes specific demands of me so I can have favor in her eyes I must do so.  I must also insist my family do so. 

If it is possible for me to live for forever in another dimension by her side, not in her service - I want to go there.  I will do everything within my power to be sure my family is there too.

If I do things she finds favorable and on occasion rewards these good deeds with small earthly gifts in form or miracles or answered prayers - I am interested.

If she is anything like the male christian god: a protector, a lover, all good, concerned - whatever.  Why would I not want to find her?  What rational person would not?

How is religion not one of the most important things you can think of?


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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/27/2009 7:57:14 PM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Sure, we know that the Divine exists; the ancient Egyptians knew that already. Sure, we also know that there are incarnate gods; Apollo and Athena presided at a court case in Greece for gossakes.


     Please tell me your suddenly using the royal we for some reason and not trying to assert that other readers of the thread or society in general share your incredibly rare religious beliefs.

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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/27/2009 8:34:52 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Are you looking for a domme? Plenty of them on the other side of CM, as well as a few on this side. Some of them even identify as Goddess-this-or-that.

God is a male?  The most ancient concepts know she is female.  How do you know the sex of god?

Religion is possibly the most important issue. Although is is almost always the most misunderstood and under investigated issue. If she is real and she makes specific demands of me so I can have favor in her eyes I must do so. I must also insist my family do so. 

If it is possible for me to live for forever in another dimension by her side, not in her service - I want to go there.  I will do everything within my power to be sure my family is there too.

If I do things she finds favorable and on occasion rewards these good deeds with small earthly gifts in form or miracles or answered prayers - I am interested.

If she is anything like the male christian god: a protector, a lover, all good, concerned - whatever.  Why would I not want to find her?  What rational person would not?

How is religion not one of the most important things you can think of?

You ought to pay more attention to the structure of quotes. You mess them up terribly.

Define god and I will maybe deduce whether god is male or female (usually I look between the legs). I got to tell you, though, that I do not know the sexe of my pillow; perhaps it is neuter? A German or Frenchman might know.

Perhaps you ought to stop looking for god in order to find it. Ever consider that?
Anyway, you will have to do without my pillow: it is mine.

But you may worship my pillow in effigy. (I am a generous guy. )

Umm, talking about pillows, perhaps you might consult them nice people in white coats. They have got lots of pillows.

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/27/2009 8:36:59 PM >

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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/27/2009 8:45:44 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Sure, we know that the Divine exists; the ancient Egyptians knew that already. Sure, we also know that there are incarnate gods; Apollo and Athena presided at a court case in Greece for gossakes.

Please tell me your suddenly using the royal we for some reason and not trying to assert that other readers of the thread or society in general share your incredibly rare religious beliefs.

Thank you for informing me about this case of me being insufficiently specific. I will clarify: it was intended as the generic 'we', specifically as in 'we informed people'.

I regret that you are not aware of this aspect of Egyptian mythology, nor of the court proceedings of the trial attended to in person by Apollo and Athena. (It is an entire book, perhaps in two volumes, if I recall correctly. I have got a photocopy of it somewhere here, for at least six years already, but I have no idea where exactly, and I haven't read it myself yet.)
Undoubtedly you do are informed about other subjects.

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/27/2009 8:47:00 PM >

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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/27/2009 9:17:05 PM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		As a hypothesis, I believe, ID is valid. Mathematical analysis of random mutation theory has created enough doubt (at least 700 known scientists worldwide acknowledge it) about its validity. In principle, ID can have experimental support. Study of the organization of genome DNA sequences must be able to differentiate between random mutation theory and the need of an additional organizing force or principle. Evolutionary mechanisms (like for example horizontal gene transfer in bacteria, diploid structure, sexual reproduction, cross-over in higher organisms; also sexual selection, war, religion) are built into the system what makes the study a little complicated. Also, it will tell nothing about existence of God. I am sure somebody is already working on this problem. There are several genomes freely available. 

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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/27/2009 9:28:26 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		There is no random mutation. There is only mutation of genomes that have been retained by natural selection, which retaining is extremely specific. So there: that does away with the random mutation nonsense.

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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/29/2009 8:26:56 AM   
KockRocket


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Status: offline 		RULE!! BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP ME I AM A GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

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RE: Intelligent Designed Peer Review - 8/29/2009 9:18:24 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
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Status: offline 		My pillow? Is that you?

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