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questions from the curious - 8/28/2009 5:30:40 PM   
curious112


Posts: 2
Joined: 8/28/2009
Status: offline 		I'm here trying to get an understanding of this lifestyle.  My best friend has been seeing this guy (I now learn, her Dom) for about a year and I thought he was great at first.  As time when on he became more aggressive to her and more dominating of an increasing amount of her life.  After seeing an occasional bruise a few times while out shopping I asked her if he was abusing her.  This is when she told me about this lifestyle and that they were a part of it.  It explained much of his behavior and the changes in hers as well as made me feel a little better about her bruises and such.  But again the more I see the more I wonder.  I've gone online I've read what I can and I've figured out that the best way is to talk to people that are in this lifestyle.  There are so many things that I see where I am left wondering if it is part of the lifestyle and their dynamic or if hes using it as an excuse to treat her the way he does.  I have talked her several times about it and gotten every answer from I don't understand because I'm not involved to a silence and refusal to answer that has me just as worried.
I know that this is a legit life and though it isn't one that I think I could do any further than the bedroom I know that people in it have wonderful relationships.  I don't want to sound like I think its terrible, I just really care about my friend and I am concerned that even she is loosing sight of the line between this lifestyle and abuse.  So I really hope you all don't mind me pestering you with questions.
Thank you in advance.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: questions from the curious - 8/28/2009 6:00:16 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		Because of the diversity of this lifestyle you will get a million different answers and NONE of them will be the way THEY do it.

It may be best to just ask them what it means to them and what it is all about to them.

Steel

_____________________________

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Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
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Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to curious112)
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RE: questions from the curious - 8/28/2009 6:36:11 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		It sounds like she HAS given you an answer.  You have chosen not to accept it. 

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: questions from the curious - 8/28/2009 6:39:18 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: curious112

I am concerned that even she is loosing sight of the line between this lifestyle and abuse.

There isn't any line aside from the one she's drawn...unless she's failed to draw one, in which case her problem isn't the lifestyle at all.

(Note: the only exception to the above statement is the existence of legal "lines" based on location, but that's not what you're asking.)


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to curious112)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: questions from the curious - 8/28/2009 6:55:24 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Is she happy and content? Or depressed?

Does she seem to always be afraid of him? Or do they seem to be all smiles and good together?

If she and they together are happy then take her word for it and leave it be.

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: questions from the curious - 8/28/2009 8:36:05 PM   
RebornMaster


Posts: 53
Joined: 8/26/2009
From: American in Misawa, Japan
Status: offline 		It's good that you're worried about your friend and commendable that you're trying to find answers but like was mentioned, she's answered you and you seem not to accept it. I didnt understand about this lifestyle and wondered how people could be involved in it until I myself found myself involved in it through natural growth with my slave. It's not understandable unless you're involved and it's pretty much black and white in my opinion, either you are or you aren't. Either you understand or you dont. Do your research, understand the concept, talk to your friend and ask her again if you must, but if she's genuinely happy...leave it alone. There's no way any of us can make you understand the life style and you never will until you live it. 

_____________________________

slaveToKnight's Master

(in reply to littlewonder)
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RE: questions from the curious - 8/28/2009 8:52:11 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: curious112
I know that this is a legit life and though it isn't one that I think I could do any further than the bedroom I know that people in it have wonderful relationships.  I don't want to sound like I think its terrible, I just really care about my friend and I am concerned that even she is loosing sight of the line between this lifestyle and abuse.  So I really hope you all don't mind me pestering you with questions.

So ask yourself.... carefully do you have any evidence of abuse? For instance, bruises don't really count. I mean seriously, don't we all get various nicks, cuts, and abrasions at various times during sex? And if she grooves on a bit of pain, well? So what? Bodies heal. Or, you could take a look at the fact that he bosses her around? But look closely... is it to her detriment? What does the look on her face when she looks at him tell you? I guess what I'm urging is to do your best to avoid preconcieved notions and look at the reality in front of you. Then, based on your friendship, act or not as you deem you need to.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to curious112)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: questions from the curious - 8/28/2009 9:19:49 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Here are some general guidelines that I use to differentiate between abuse and what I consider healthy BDSM.

Abuse is nonconsensual.  HBDSM is consensual.
Abuse tears a victim down.  HBDSM builds a submissive up.
Abuse involves someone who cannot control themselves.  HBDSM involves someone who is in control of him/herself AND another person.

If she's happy... let her be.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: questions from the curious - 8/28/2009 9:22:24 PM   
Golden614


Posts: 19
Joined: 6/21/2008
Status: offline 		I don't really have any friends in the lifestyle, and i often get a similar reaction from friends about unexplained bruises and behaviors that do not seem "normal." And most people accept that i am truly happy with my Master (or "boyfriend" as I call him when speaking with vanilla folks). And for those few who have so much trouble accepting that this kind of relationship exists beyond the bedroom, there is really nothing I CAN tell them. Their acceptance means something to me, but all I can really do is keep my mouth shut and let them draw their own conclusions. I will not not give up anything that makes me truly happy, and the fact that I even bother to explain what is terribly personal to me, I hope, lets them know that I care about them. But in the end, I can not change them or their views on what a relationship should be.

Exactly as littlewonder said, if she shows all the signs of a happy person in a happy relationship, there is no reason for you to worry. I think it is really amazing that you are researching and looking further into this and I commend you. Relax a little, though, it does not sound to me like abuse, it sounds as if she is very commited to her relationship and she is trying to help you understand, in her way, said dynamic. Not knowing all the ins and outs, of course there is the chance that something here is wrong. But it doesn't sound like she is trying to hide anything, which makes me think she is okay with it all, and so you should be too. Give it some time, show her some acceptance, spend time with her and with the two of them. I think this will all work out for the best. :-)

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: questions from the curious - 8/28/2009 10:53:15 PM   
SouthernSpankin


Posts: 106
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		Abuse happens in vanilla relationships. Abuse happens in BDSM relationships. I'd imagine that most of us can agree that abuse is not cool. But it does get dicey... it is quite possible that there is a subculture of BDSM where being in an abusive relationship is actually what both parties are looking for (even if it makes the person being abused depressed). And, it is also quite possible that a well-intentioned BDSM relationship turns into an abusive relationship, just like a well-intentioned vanilla relationship can turn into an abusive relationship.

But, from what I've seen recently from the current posters here, they are not cool with abuse and if someone showed up advocating an abuse-is-cool subculture or an abusive relationship, they wouldn't get a very nice welcome here--assuming the people here were even able to recognize that an abuse-is-cool subculture was even being advocated or that an abusive relationship was being advocated, which might not happen.

If you show back up and engage in a dialogue in this thread, you'll find that the people posting here are actually a lot more thoughtful once you engage in a dialogue with them (well, some of them at least).

Also, one of the first things I did while considering your question was to google "bdsm abuse." First link I got was to http://www.leathernroses.com/abuse/healingabuse.htm
It's a whole page of articles on "Abuse and BDSM." And that was just the first link I got using those search terms. I'd imagine that you could find tons of thoughtful, intelligent discussions regarding BDSM vis-a-vis abusive relationships all over the internet.

As for myself, I'd like to contribute to that discussion, especially when it comes to helping you. You sound like a really, really good person that is being a really, really good friend.

However, I'm tired and it's hard to think about something that requires a great deal of thought when I'm tired. But I'm hoping that I'll be able to post a thoughtful response to you sometime in the near future.

< Message edited by SouthernSpankin -- 8/28/2009 11:26:58 PM >

(in reply to Golden614)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: questions from the curious - 8/29/2009 4:22:32 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		it is possible to be in a relationship and be in total denial..  you know youre friend, we dont.

abuse happens in all sorts of relationships but what may seem like abuse to you isnt in this lifestyle,

the litmus test to be honest, is, is she happy.

she may be changing but if in changing she is happy with that change, settled, calm, smiling then you dont have to worry. 

but in the end its her choice and no amount of worry on youre part is going to change her decision to stay with this guy.  we all have to learn and go our own way, its how we learn.

to be honest its impossible to tell from here, not knowing you or youre friend or the guy in question.


(in reply to SouthernSpankin)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: questions from the curious - 8/29/2009 4:40:41 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: curious112

I just really care about my friend and I am concerned that even she is loosing sight of the line between this lifestyle and abuse. 



It's a fine line between abuse and mutual consent. You will always hear people say that providing it's consensual then there isn't a problem; the other side of the argument is that it's possible to manipulate a situation so that the other party consents to something that really isn't in his/her interests.

There's no objective truth on what consititutes abuse I'm afraid - so you're not going to get the definitive answer.

As an individual you go with what you think is the best option for you. You make your bed and lie in it and you can't make someone else's bed for them. Which I suppose is a polite way of saying that your friend's relationships aren't your business.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to curious112)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: questions from the curious - 8/29/2009 4:49:25 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: curious112

I'm here trying to get an understanding of this lifestyle.  My best friend has been seeing this guy (I now learn, her Dom) for about a year and I thought he was great at first.  As time when on he became more aggressive to her and more dominating of an increasing amount of her life.  After seeing an occasional bruise a few times while out shopping I asked her if he was abusing her.  This is when she told me about this lifestyle and that they were a part of it.  It explained much of his behavior and the changes in hers as well as made me feel a little better about her bruises and such.  But again the more I see the more I wonder.  I've gone online I've read what I can and I've figured out that the best way is to talk to people that are in this lifestyle.  There are so many things that I see where I am left wondering if it is part of the lifestyle and their dynamic or if hes using it as an excuse to treat her the way he does.  I have talked her several times about it and gotten every answer from I don't understand because I'm not involved to a silence and refusal to answer that has me just as worried.
I know that this is a legit life and though it isn't one that I think I could do any further than the bedroom I know that people in it have wonderful relationships.  I don't want to sound like I think its terrible, I just really care about my friend and I am concerned that even she is loosing sight of the line between this lifestyle and abuse.  So I really hope you all don't mind me pestering you with questions.
Thank you in advance.



BDSM is BDSM. Abuse is abuse. The 2 don't sit together. Of course it's possible for people to be both subject to/involved in BDSM and abuse, but at the moment it becomes abuse it ceases to be BDSM. IMHO of course.

Is your friend generally happy and contented with her man and her life? Or is she sullen, withdrawn and saddened by the experience?

Another thing; you might as well chill out and be sanguine about it all, because there isn't actually much you can do - if she is in an abusive relationship she won't actually hear anything you might want to say to her about it; in my experience, people become totally blind to both their partner's faults and the situation when they love someone who is abusive. As a friend, I'm afraid all you can do, if it's an abusive relationship, is be supportive and wait for her to make her own mind up as to when it's gone too far - which sadly may take a long, long time to happen.

If you have any specific questions I don't mind answering them privately, so feel free to memo me.

(in reply to curious112)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: questions from the curious - 8/29/2009 5:35:14 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

abuse happens in all sorts of relationships but what may seem like abuse to you isnt necessarily abuse here in this lifestyle,



sorry, just noticed a small but quite big 'oops' . thanks x

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: questions from the curious - 8/29/2009 4:57:11 PM   
curious112


Posts: 2
Joined: 8/28/2009
Status: offline 		I guess I was a bit vague. I have known my friend for a few years now and she seems happy sometimes, but then again she has thought of leaving him a few times because he has mood swings. Lately he has been good to her, but it doesn't really take much to set him off. I have been there for some of his outbursts which often include him screaming at her until she cries and forcing her to call herself worthless and a cunt as he slaps at her, and they are sometimes pretty bad over seemingly nothing. Again though, I'm not really sure what boundaries they had set.  But is it common for a sub to get upset over things and vent to a friend over something they've agreed upon?  It seems to me that its a case of something changing from what it was.

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: questions from the curious - 8/29/2009 5:32:05 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: curious112

I guess I was a bit vague. I have known my friend for a few years now and she seems happy sometimes, but then again she has thought of leaving him a few times because he has mood swings. Lately he has been good to her, but it doesn't really take much to set him off. I have been there for some of his outbursts which often include him screaming at her until she cries and forcing her to call herself worthless and a cunt as he slaps at her, and they are sometimes pretty bad over seemingly nothing. Again though, I'm not really sure what boundaries they had set.  But is it common for a sub to get upset over things and vent to a friend over something they've agreed upon?  It seems to me that its a case of something changing from what it was.


yes and i actually think it is good if she has friends in and outside of the lifestyle to get a balanced perspective. sometimes people in similar relationships will ignore behavior that could send an alarm off for someone else. of course it doesn't imply your friend is in a relationship that is not affirming or suggest she didn't originally consent to his treatment beforehand. it is likely that the behavioral changes he's had makes it less arousing and far more upsetting than it did when he appeared more stable. accent on 'appearance'. the behavior may have always been present and she's merely grown tired of it.

the best thing you can do is listen and be supportive. never forget you are getting bits and pieces of the situation and it is unlikely you'll hear the whole story. for what its worth i find most people vent when they're unhappy about something, but when things are kosher a lot is often ignored or swept under the rug. apply this logic to what i stated above and you'll see the situation differently.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: questions from the curious - 8/29/2009 10:51:45 PM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

But is it common for a sub to get upset over things and vent to a friend over something they've agreed upon? It seems to me that its a case of something changing from what it was.


We can't answer your questions. We don't know your friend, or her friend. What you say can be interpreted a hundred different ways.

But I think, most importantly, that friendship does not have to extend to where you start making assumptions, and running interference. Assuming your friend is an adult, she has a right to the life she chooses, and to the mistakes she wants to make. Beyond being there for her, you don't need to "worry" about her - you are not her mother. If you were my friend, and I discovered you invaded my privacy and discussed my life with others on a public forum on the public internet, I'd probably take your head off.

(in reply to curious112)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: questions from the curious - 8/30/2009 3:53:23 AM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: curious112

I guess I was a bit vague. I have known my friend for a few years now and she seems happy sometimes, but then again she has thought of leaving him a few times because he has mood swings. Lately he has been good to her, but it doesn't really take much to set him off. I have been there for some of his outbursts which often include him screaming at her until she cries and forcing her to call herself worthless and a cunt as he slaps at her, and they are sometimes pretty bad over seemingly nothing. Again though, I'm not really sure what boundaries they had set. But is it common for a sub to get upset over things and vent to a friend over something they've agreed upon? It seems to me that its a case of something changing from what it was.



Ok firstly as a lot have said consent is crucial, your friend considers this a BDSM relationship therefore it is consensual. However your use of the term 'set him off' now because you are not involved in BDSM I would guess that you can't see the line.

The problem seems to be your friend venting, you need to clarify things with her, if she really feels that he is going to far then yes she should talk to him/leave the situation however it may well be in line with the fact that girls bitch. She may feel that as she has confided in you that you will be on her wavelength you aren't. The activities you describe are in no way 'extreme' or uncommon in BDSM. As has been said we can't explain how she is feeling you need to do that with her. Really outline your concerns.

As to whether it is common for people to complain, sure it is, especially to friends but possibly your friend is complaining to the wrong person.

You need to tell her all this, say that if she means it she needs to sort it out if not then she has to explain things to you a bit better or not use you as a dumping ground.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to curious112)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: questions from the curious - 8/30/2009 4:48:38 AM   
Acer49


Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: curious112

I'm here trying to get an understanding of this lifestyle.  My best friend has been seeing this guy (I now learn, her Dom) for about a year and I thought he was great at first.  As time when on he became more aggressive to her and more dominating of an increasing amount of her life.  After seeing an occasional bruise a few times while out shopping I asked her if he was abusing her.  This is when she told me about this lifestyle and that they were a part of it.  It explained much of his behavior and the changes in hers as well as made me feel a little better about her bruises and such.  But again the more I see the more I wonder.  I've gone online I've read what I can and I've figured out that the best way is to talk to people that are in this lifestyle.  There are so many things that I see where I am left wondering if it is part of the lifestyle and their dynamic or if hes using it as an excuse to treat her the way he does.  I have talked her several times about it and gotten every answer from I don't understand because I'm not involved to a silence and refusal to answer that has me just as worried.
I know that this is a legit life and though it isn't one that I think I could do any further than the bedroom I know that people in it have wonderful relationships.  I don't want to sound like I think its terrible, I just really care about my friend and I am concerned that even she is loosing sight of the line between this lifestyle and abuse.  So I really hope you all don't mind me pestering you with questions.
Thank you in advance.



There could be many reasons for the bruising; I think it depends where the bruising is. The main thing I would watch for is her mental state. Abusers have a tendency to try to limit their victim’s access to their friends and family. Your friend may need excessive pain achieve her satisfaction be it a sexual release or subspace experience. She may also be of the thought that bruises are a badge of honor. She could also just bruise easily. Just keep an eye on her



< Message edited by Acer49 -- 8/30/2009 4:50:35 AM >

_____________________________

Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey Fierstein

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: questions from the curious - 8/30/2009 5:18:08 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		well, again, oddly, its none of my business atall, but the fact that he is carrying on like that infront of you is in my view 'wrong' right there.

trouble is, if she is into humiliation and being talked to like that then no matter how awful it looks and feels to you, its her choice.

a question i would ask her is 'does she feel free to leave him'  the point of that question is to ascertain whether theyre dynamic is such that she feels she cannot leave him without him first releasing her.  i know that sounds crazy and plenty here would totally agree with you, but it does happen.  if her answer is that yes she feels free to leave him, then i can only assume she is there out of choice.

however, it is possible to be in a relationship, agree to all sorts of stuff and for it still to be abusive.  there is more to this than BDSM, there is, ideally in a relationship, some semblance of affection (atleast), respect, care and appreciation. but if she is into emotional abuse then again, you have a problem.  you see, it isnt all that straight forward.

as her friend you can only stand in the wings and be supportive, you cannot apply youre relationship tastes onto her, they simply dont equate.

(in reply to Acer49)
Profile   Post #: 20
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