RE: "Fifties household" and TPE

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ranja -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/2/2009 2:55:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sravaka Hi ranja, I sincerely hope I gave no offense with my thumb twiddling comment-- I know there are women (and I'm sure men too) for whom what I perceive as stressful and ill-fitting is, as you say, "absolute bliss," and I know too that there's more than a full time job involved in keeping a household running smoothly. I'm actually quite jealous sometimes.... I wish I had better homemaking skills to bring to the table. (Working on it, but.... ::sigh:: ) June Cleaver, for the record, was the absurdly perfect mom/wife on "Leave it to Beaver," a 1950s US sitcom. See posts by Mistress DeVito and Otter below for a taste... No offence at all... and at times i do make the time and spend a whole afternoon twiddling just because it is lovely to do nothing... I think everybody envies anothers way of life at times...when i do, i usually read; books are brilliant to live anothers life for a while... depending on income, home making can be made a lot easier than it seems... it depends on who you can hire in... many people employ window washers, decorators, cleaning ladies, gardeners, shopping can be done online and delivered to your door, take away food can be ordered. For parties the trick is to invite enough people and provide enough booze (or do a bring a bottle) and maybe employ caterers. We don't do parties often as it is a bit of hard work... last party i did was ladies only from 8 to midnight... Ann Summers (adult toys) and male stripper after... i invited about 35 women, about 25 came (everybody who came helped to pay towards the stripper).. i hade made vodka yellies and punch and we kept adding to the bowl.... my Husband went out with a friend, He came back at midnight and at 1AM we sent the last ladies hooked to the stripper out of the door, everybody had a lovely time. I also like little dinner parties or a Barbeque afternoon, i like good company and a relaxed atmosphere. Also it is quite important to sort of match in taste and neatness with your partner... some people want to live in a pristine house with all the clothes neatly ironed while others are way more comfortable when there is still a bit of mess and some crinkles about. I am not a neat-freak and fortunately He isn't either I do find it quite lucky that i am a good cook... i maybe have afinity for it, but i do believe it is a skill that can be learned by anyone and in my experience men do value being offered good meals very much... I think on the whole i enjoy my work around the house more than my Husband enjoys His job, but i think He is more proud of His skills than i am of my housekeeping. I watched a bit of the June Cleaver thing, thanks for the link Musicmystery... we are not that stiff and not that glamerous (or neat) and we have more colour.

NihilusZero -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/2/2009 6:01:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Being older than dirt NZ, my memories are that the men didn't usually look forward to seeing their families and interacting with them. Many of the women I knew when I was a youngin in the 50s and 60s had only high school diplomas if that. The men had the higher degrees yet helping with homework was relegated to the woman despite her lack of ability to do so. The men I knew came home, ate dinner, and watched tv. They didn't seek interaction with their wives and offspring. They set up relationships with women where the women didn't work, didn't have higher education and then they had nothing in common with these women except to look down on them for lacking those things despite deliberately choosing women who didn't have careers and college educations. One of these women I had known for over 30 years before I discovered she actually had a brain. If her husband was there, she simpered and played up to him. She played the dumb blonde to the hilt because that's what he demanded. She played that with him alone and in public for their entire married life. She was not allowed to be her authentic self most of her adult life. And that's sad. :( If that is at all reflective of how the concept is presumed to be applied in a WIITWD sense, then I quite appreciate the enlightenment so as to distance myself from having any interest in such a dynamic. That is sad. And if the underlying question has actually been if a slave can be engaged in something akin to TPE while still being able to expect genuine interpersonal intimacy, then most of my early commentary would appear to be missing the forest for the trees. At very least, it would be contradictory to precisely what I work towards in my dynamics.

happylittlepet -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/2/2009 8:32:25 AM)
This is a slightly adjusted cmail I sent to the OP earlier. Being raised in Europe, I have no idea who June Cleaver is. This ties in to 'what is exactly a 50's household'? Which cultural background is chosen? If you would ask everyone who was married then, you get a myriad of stories. I don't believe that the 'mean' of those stories is the 'truth' either. Which means that we end up with a generalization. I refuse to shape my life based on a generalization. A label is just that. It describes. My parents were born in the thirties. In the 50's they became adults, and they got married in the early '60s. They did not shape their lives because of conscious choice, they did it because society/family expected that from them. No kink, talking about sex was taboo, and my mother told me that she liked her days as fiance much better than after getting married. My dad told me later that no one had ever told him that his wife's emotional life should be important for him to have knowledge about, let alone that he would talk with her about that. Result: a wife who felt neglected, developed an inferiority complex, and was not able to overcome the barriers to begin expressing her needs. Yet, her service to him/our family was almost perfect, except for the fact that she made herself into a martyr. To me this is not TPE. What I don't know about my parents is whether how they worked it out is typical for the '50's. They ignored both the feminist movement and the student revolutions. As far as I can see, they remained like they were in the 50's until my mom died last year. The only positive thing of her terminal illness is that they were finally able to bridge the communication gap and grow closer. How sad is that. To me, in a TPE, the D/M takes responsibility for the sub/slave, especially the emotional aspects. She is, after all, not allowed to make her own choices. She surrenders her autonomy completely, and transparency is key. I wonder in how many 50's households this really happened. My dad told me he was raised to a be leader at work, in society, and in the church, but not in his own home. Maybe my dad was just not dominant; I think my mother was very submissive though. My dad was more passive aggressive. This is not a good mix. In a way, my mom ran the family, because my dad was not leading. So maybe TPE could be found in 50's household, if there was a dominant, aware, male, and a submissive, aware, female. The question would then be, how many couples were like that? To idealize the '50's household' as if it only comes in one shape, to me, is not doing justice to reality. And again, it seems that people are going to adjust their lives to a 'label', an 'idea', in the hope of being respected in BDSM circles. To me this is useless. Last week someone wrote to me about that the movies from that time are the perfect way of depicting dominant males/submissive females. I didn't agree. How can movies (fictional) be a template for the real world? How can June Cleaver be a template? I don't know how her husband is depicted, but I have never thought, when seeing older movies/series 'wow, what a good example of a dominant male in the sense that he knows his wife inside out. We have to read too much between the lines to add to what is depicted that the dominant male is a. in control of the relationship, and b. that he really wants to know what goes on the head of his wife. If we do that, we are already shaping what we see into the image we want it to have, the idealization. Maybe the main difference from what I have seen is that in a '50's household, a lot was done/not done out of ignorance, whereas in TPE everything is done/shaped because of awareness. Edit: I know I am not the only one raised like this, although my teenage years were in the 80's. Some families just stayed stuck in this pattern, and did not allow their children to adopt more modern attitudes/behavior. It is/was a life style in itself, no pun intended. Someone wrote earlier, it ended in the '50s; for some it didn't, and I know it still exists, even though I have moved away from it. Very often orthodox religion is mixed in to keep the women in their place, and that makes it very hard to break out of it, because the women are made to feel guilty and disobedient when they don't submit to what is 'ordained'. How is that consensual? I recognize what you write about this arrangement not being satisfying for you. I lived it in my own marriage, to me it was killing my spirit. My intellect was oppressed. I get no joy out of cooking patotoes for yet another meal with an absent minded partner. Finally going to university in my 30's opened my eyes, and led me to make major changes in my life, among which was ending that marriage. I will never be able to go back to an arrangement like this. This then brings me back to the beginning: what do BDSM'ers really mean when they say they want a 50's household? If that resembles what I described above, then I will put it as a hard limit for myself as well.

happylittlepet -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/2/2009 9:07:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Being older than dirt NZ, my memories are that the men didn't usually look forward to seeing their families and interacting with them. Many of the women I knew when I was a youngin in the 50s and 60s had only high school diplomas if that. The men had the higher degrees yet helping with homework was relegated to the woman despite her lack of ability to do so. The men I knew came home, ate dinner, and watched tv. They didn't seek interaction with their wives and offspring. ** To the red part: why would a woman with a high school diploma not have the ability to do homework? She was trained by her mother, aunts, etc. In my background homemaking was brought to perfection: cleanliness is next to godliness. They set up relationships with women where the women didn't work, didn't have higher education and then they had nothing in common with these women except to look down on them for lacking those things despite deliberately choosing women who didn't have careers and college educations. One of these women I had known for over 30 years before I discovered she actually had a brain. If her husband was there, she simpered and played up to him. She played the dumb blonde to the hilt because that's what he demanded. She played that with him alone and in public for their entire married life. She was not allowed to be her authentic self most of her adult life. And that's sad. My experience with the bolded paragraph: This was not done with intent, maybe by some, but not by the majority, in the 40's/50's, in Europe. See, what happened is, and I only speak for middle class families: post secondary education cost money, and as the men were going to be the breadwinners, they were sent to get that education, the women quit after/during high school, pursued simple office jobs, worked in stores, until they got married and became home makers. They were not expected to keep their job once they got married. It's not that the women were kept back on purpose, it was the lack of money, and what was socially the norm. In my family background, none of the women of my mother's/grandmother's generation had a college/university degree. Let's say that the males were just as much 'victim' of this system as the females were, as the males never encountered in their partner a person they could converse with on an academic level. But again, it was not intent, it was part of how society was shaped by the years before the '50s. My grandfather became an architect by going to night school, his sons became architects because he was able to pay for them to go to university as young adults.

allthatjaz -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/2/2009 3:01:07 PM)
happylittlepet I respected your post up until you said 'And again, it seems that people are going to adjust their lives to a 'label', an 'idea', in the hope of being respected in BDSM circles. To me this is useless'. Please tell me why BDSM circles would not respect such people? and why its useless? Do you really believe that people are going to adjust there lives to a 'label'? I think its more likely they will pick up elements of it and use it accordingly to fit in with there lives, just as slaves pick up elements of real slavery and adjust it to suit, for only a fool would wish to be chained to the galleys of a ship and endure what real slaves suffered.

CaringandReal -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/2/2009 3:28:24 PM)
This site is from the late end of the yahoo era, although they were never on yahoo, it's just what they were contemperaneous with. Lots of 50s Style Household people find a home there. And some of just go to peep and perve. (And maybe write, very occasionally) http://www.takeninhand.com/ PS: I left asb before their morphed into ssbb. Does that make me (sigh) older? (assidiously not mentioning the stuff before asb)

CaringandReal -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/2/2009 3:50:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sravaka Somewhere, ages ago, I read something that likened a slave to a bonsai tree. They can be twisted in any manner of ways, some quite thoroughly unnatural-seeming.... but each tree has its own structure and own <cough> limits, points or directions beyond which they cannot be trained to grow, however assuiduously you attempt to make them do so. The trick, in this metaphor, would be to bring out the possibilities inherent in the individual tree, and to go seek another tree if this one doesn't suit your specific purposes. That is what I intend when I say no (as a seeker, not an incumbent) to 50s household. Looks to left. Looks above. Looks to left. AAAAACCCCCKKKK! Actually what you say is a tautology. All people have limitations. Intelligence is a good example. I've been told all my life I am very intelligent, but now I work now in a company where almost everyone is a genuis (the few who aren't are extremely competent at their jobs. I fall into the second, "useful to geniuses" category. :/ ) I don't have the aptitude to understand the core subject matter that these people deal with on a daily basis and I never will. So if a dominant needed or wanted a rocket scientist, he probably wouldn't be able to shape one from such clay as mine. I'm prety sure though that I could do (or learn to do) the "wife" role in a 50s household. It doesn't require much higher math so it's within my level of competence. ;) And I would also enjoy it, with the right person of course. But you are talking about emotional limitations? I suppose you go on to explain that later. I just caught the reference to my avatar and had to respond.

happylittlepet -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/2/2009 3:50:45 PM)
allthatjaz Thank you for your questions. Please read that whole paragraph as one unit: quote: So maybe TPE could be found in 50's household, if there was a dominant, aware, male, and a submissive, aware, female. The question would then be, how many couples were like that? To idealize the '50's household' as if it only comes in one shape, to me, is not doing justice to reality. And again, it seems that people are going to adjust their lives to a 'label', an 'idea', in the hope of being respected in BDSM circles. To me this is useless. I mean this: if people try to fit into labels because they want to earn respect from others, or be esteemed as better than person x who needs that label less, or to feel better about themselves because others look up at them (e.g. a better slave than x). To me, that is the wrong motivation to do something. If I do that, I am not really who I am, I would do those things because I think I 'should'. I don't mean that people don't deserve respect, everyone does. But my respect is less for someone who does something for the reasons I just gave, as compared to someone who does something because he/she has worked past the point where the opinion of others does not dictate his/her actions. Look at the discussions here about what is a 'true' Dom/me, Master, slave, sub. I ask the same type of question in this thread, what is meant by a '50s household'? And even if there would be one pretty good description, I am sure many people would attach a different meaning to that label. If that label would be explained as how I have experienced it in real life, as if it was an empty shell, then I can't go there. If that means that therefore I am less able to be 'sub/slave', so be it. I think we would be surprised/shocked if we knew how many people, in order to please someone, mold themselves into what the other wants them to be. A lot of people do not figure out the basics of life, e.g. healthy boundaries, and let others have too much influence/control. I think the chance of this happening is greater on the side of subs/slaves than on the side of Doms/Masters. A good example is the thread about pleasing in the Sub forums. Also, the OP indicates that she is now a less desirable match because she puts 50's households as a hard limit. She will be someone's beautiful partner, if that someone is interested in her as a person first, gets to know her, and then discusses with her how they are going to shape their dynamic. If this someone only sees the 'hard limit' label, and passes her by, doesn't that show that he is not the right person for her? Or should she not list it, to be found more pleasing? I don't see the logic of that. I totally agree with the second part of your response to me. Unfortunately, from what I read on the CM forums, working this out in a (new) relationship leads to a lot of problems, because of the preconceived ideas people have.

CaringandReal -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/2/2009 4:08:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sravaka In the recent "let's see if this will work" situation I alluded to here and have written a bit about elsewhere, the way this played out over the course of a week is that I sat home all day, all alone, in a godforsaken suburb, partly doing things for work and partly tidying up, preparing dinner, generally being domestic. He came home, consumed the dinner with me (that part was nice enough), and then retired to watch tv, play on his computer, etc. Lather, rinse, repeat. I imagined this stretching out into the future ad nauseum and could not help envisioning throwing myself under a bus. The net effect was that I felt lonelier there with him than I would have felt doing exactly the same combination of work + domestic stuff in my own home, with no one else around. I certainly didn't feel "enslaved" (though I might have felt potentially obedient or pleasing.) There were other things that were probably wrong with that connection.... but I came to recognize that in his view (which was billed as TPE long before the fact that "50s HH" appealed to him), a woman enslaves herself. His role is pretty much just to sit back and be served. To me, this gets to the core of it. You had a bad experience with an insensitive lout. Avoiding him (and his type) in the future is a really good idea, I think, but I believe that with the right person, a lot of what you describe (and all the rest of the 50s household or tpe stuff) might have been a very positive experience, because the person's responses to you would have been very different. You don't strike me as a person who would be unhappy in a TPE. In fact, from the things you say and the ways in which you phrase them, I believe you'd thrive in one. You seem extremely open-minded and flexible as well which are needed qualities in a master-slave relationship. Just my 2 cents!

allthatjaz -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/2/2009 4:35:38 PM)
I do understand what your saying happylittlepet. Trying to fit into a label is a little difficult for me to comprehend but thats probably because I have never done it. All and every kind of lifestyle on these boards could be perceived as a label. 50s style living is really no different. 'Stephen just asked me one day 'what do you think about 50s lifestyle?' and I answered 'well I think it pretty much sums up a lot of our lifestyle'. He works hard and I look after him. He makes the rules and remains consistent within those rules and I follow them because I happen to think his rules are productive and never unreasonable. We don't have a tv (our choice) and I have to budget carefully because we don't have a lot of money. He is not a miserable old git that gets home from work and demands his dinner on the table. He gets home from work with a big smile on his face because he's coming home to me and I equally feel a rush of happiness every time he walks through our door. My perception of 50s lifestyle is my grandparents who lived a blissfully happy life but never came out of the 50s. Our lifestyle just simply evolved and the nearest thing we relate it to is 50s style. Thats not to say we don't party and we fit in with modern living too when we need to.

happylittlepet -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/2/2009 5:07:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz I do understand what your saying happylittlepet. Trying to fit into a label is a little difficult for me to comprehend but thats probably because I have never done it. All and every kind of lifestyle on these boards could be perceived as a label. 50s style living is really no different. 'Stephen just asked me one day 'what do you think about 50s lifestyle?' and I answered 'well I think it pretty much sums up a lot of our lifestyle'. He works hard and I look after him. He makes the rules and remains consistent within those rules and I follow them because I happen to think his rules are productive and never unreasonable. We don't have a tv (our choice) and I have to budget carefully because we don't have a lot of money. He is not a miserable old git that gets home from work and demands his dinner on the table. He gets home from work with a big smile on his face because he's coming home to me and I equally feel a rush of happiness every time he walks through our door. My perception of 50s lifestyle is my grandparents who lived a blissfully happy life but never came out of the 50s. Our lifestyle just simply evolved and the nearest thing we relate it to is 50s style. Thats not to say we don't party and we fit in with modern living too when we need to. For me the hardest thing to overcome has been to find out who I am, because that was not allowed, when I was raised. Life consisted of 'shoulds'; 'what will the neighbors think' and worst of all 'what will God think'. And we were taught that women were the fickle ones, the ones who were seduced first, and that we therefore had to be dominated by males. It doesn't surprise me that most people can't relate to that, and when people tell me they were raised to become who they are, and to say what they think, I am always happy for them. The way you describe your relationship is how I had wanted my marriage to be, yet it wasn't, but not because I didn't work hard enough at it. I have made green what stands out for me. You live it, and found a 'label' that fits, not the other way around. I am happy when I 'see' happy people. I wish you well.

mixielicous -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/3/2009 12:14:07 AM)
all this thread did for me was create the urge to do the dishes in my new heels.

DesFIP -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/3/2009 12:20:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: happylittlepet ** To the red part: why would a woman with a high school diploma not have the ability to do homework? She was trained by her mother, aunts, etc. In my background homemaking was brought to perfection: cleanliness is next to godliness. Homework is not a word meaning taking care of the home, that is housework. Homework is work assigned at school to be done by the student at home. My mother left high school before her senior year because of illness. Although she read voraciously, she was unable to do calculus, physics, etc. My father was able to help with math but didn't. And in my house we were not taught to cook. We were taught to eat, to have an educated palate. As a result we learned to cook in order to recreate the dishes we loved. And since this is before the civil rights movement, let's be honest about the fact that many ethnic groups couldn't get any jobs except menial ones. As a result most middle to upper income families had a maid come in one or more times a week to do the cleaning.

DesFIP -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/3/2009 12:27:26 AM)
Repeated post since computer claimed it didn't go through.

Acer49 -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/3/2009 12:30:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sravaka This is somewhat inspired by, though not really relevant to, the "what is vanilla" thread, which I just read with great interest. Historical background: I've been bouncing around in BDSMland for about 12 years. I started out on usenet (does anyone here remember usenet? [feeling elderly]), already in its latter days by then, I guess, and 12 years ago the place for these things on usenet was soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm, the successor group to alt.sex.bondage, which had by then been abandoned to spam. There were other places for perverts to congregate, I'm sure, but this was distinctive as far as I could tell for being a serious discussion forum, where other places were more about chatrooms and socializing. Circa 1999 there had come to be enough noisy conflict on s.s.b-b between TPE types (I believe the term TPE was coined on alt.sex. bondage, actually?) and everyone else that M/s people formed their own usenet group. Before long this too was overrun by spam and everyone fled again to various more manageable yahoo-type-groups, (before pervy yahoo groups became unfindable-- there were also other group hosting sites at that time which yahoo later acquired), a particularly notorious one of which was run by Jon Jacobs... another of which was spun off from there and became Internal Enslavement... and so on and so forth. I wasn't taking notes at the time, so I can't be trusted to reproduce the details accurately. During the years when I was reading this stuff devotedly (maybe 99-02) I remember precisely One Guy, out of gajillions of TPE-inclined guys (and girls) whose stuff I read, who identified as a devotee of "50s household." Somehow, for all those people, even though they were overwhelmingly maledom/femsub, given the way those particular groups had defined themselves, only this One Guy was defining his relationship as a fulfillment of traditional gender roles. (I leave aside here a couple of Goreans who also used to frequent these venues, only because while they were clearly interested in traditional roles, they were (obviously) not in the least rooting them in the 1950s.) Everyone else was defining things in terms of essentially subly/slave-y nature vs. masterly nature, plus all the other usual stuff that comes up when TPE is discussed. Now, by contrast... I perceive that some (to me) weird convergence has happened, whereby some proportion of seekers (and doers? I'm less sure about that) conflate TPE and 50s household. I recently listed 50s hh as a hard limit in my profile (I am not June Cleaver and cannot be made into her), and have been accosted by people who wonder how I can even tentatively think of myself as someone enslaveable if I give that as a limit. (not because as a slave I should have no limits, but because that particular limit makes no sense in any slavery context). I've also been temporarily seduced by persons who sound like they "get it" in the same way I do, but, again, for whom "slave" = housekeeper + sex, at the bottom of things. I'm not in the least suggesting that 50s hh and TPE don't potentially overlap, or that there aren't couples out there beyond that One Guy of long ago who are blissfully happy with traditional gender roles. But since when does TPE equal June Cleaver?? Even if you give her some some kinks?? Has any one else noticed such a trend over the past 10 yrs or so? What do you think of it? What do you think led to it? Or is this not a phenomenon at all, and I just attract June-Cleaver-seekers? Grateful for any/all replies, to any part of the above. quote: Has any one else noticed such a trend over the past 10 yrs or so? What do you think of it? What do you think led to it? Or is this not a phenomenon at all, and I just attract June-Cleaver-seekers? I do not see the 50's as TPE. Was "Ward" the one who made most of the major decisions, yes, Did "June" respect his decisions, yes, Did "Ward" ask "June" her opinion on matters, he did. Did "June" voice her opinion, yes she did. I would see this as more D/s than TPE

MrRodgers -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/3/2009 6:09:56 AM)
The 50's hh one in which I was brought up..could be seen as the modern equivalent to the Victorian hh. It speaks to power only with the exception of their being no distinction between 'upstairs' and 'downstairs' in the 50's hh. In the Victorian hh, the man of the house held all power, made all of the rules. Upstairs was where the main family members lived, socialized and ate their meals and were the elite upper class. Downstairs was where the servants lived, slept, socialized and ate their meals and were considered...lower class. One was not to mingle with the other except as required. The 50's hh didn't create such stark living differences and was constructed not along the lines or a matter of class but only of rule. The man of the house still made all of the rules, yet living quarters were not necessarily divided. There were no servants as such and also no 'class' distinction. Neither hh need display any outward D/s let alone M/s and might have nothing whatever to do with BDSM and the various kinky, sexual fetishes. Both hh's could be strictly vanilla. Many subs and rightfully so...look for the 50's household as a benevolent M/s or D/s affair where power is determined, service rendered and the rest...is pleasure.

allthatjaz -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/3/2009 7:32:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Neither hh need display any outward D/s let alone M/s and might have nothing whatever to do with BDSM and the various kinky, sexual fetishes. Both hh's could be strictly vanilla. Many subs and rightfully so...look for the 50's household as a benevolent M/s or D/s affair where power is determined, service rendered and the rest...is pleasure. Well said that man

AnimusRex -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/3/2009 8:19:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mixielicous all this thread did for me was create the urge to do the dishes in my new heels. And only heels? Add some pearls, and I might swoon.

sravaka -> RE: "Fifties household" and TPE (9/3/2009 5:32:45 PM)
quote: To me, this gets to the core of it. You had a bad experience with an insensitive lout. Avoiding him (and his type) in the future is a really good idea, I think, but I believe that with the right person, a lot of what you describe (and all the rest of the 50s household or tpe stuff) might have been a very positive experience, because the person's responses to you would have been very different. You don't strike me as a person who would be unhappy in a TPE. In fact, from the things you say and the ways in which you phrase them, I believe you'd thrive in one. You seem extremely open-minded and flexible as well which are needed qualities in a master-slave relationship. Just my 2 cents! You are very kind, Caringandreal. [:)] I feel compelled to defend this poor guy, though.... he's not an insensitive lout-- I'm sure he'll be a wonderful master for someone who's a better match than I was. And I suspect you're right-- I'll do housework (hopefully among other things) with great joy for someone else down the line. I've realized as this thread has proceeded that the issue is not domesticity itself. It's having interactive intellectual stimulation. That is just a non-negotiable need. If that can be met at home, no problem. (I'm kind of fond of the "useful to geniuses" role myself, though I'd prefer it to involve talking as well as cooking.) If it has to be met by books and the internet, unconnected to either master-guy or the outside world? That's just depressing. (Note: I'm not suggesting that this particular guy was not awfully smart himself. we just didn't connect well enough, for whatever reason.) As always, I suppose the trick is to get to the bottom of what people mean when they say "50s HH" or anything else-- there may be some who are compatible, as well as those from whom it's best to run away fast.

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