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Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/1/2009 8:34:02 PM   
GotSteel


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Here's an interesting article, apparently the pedophile priest cover up wasn't just a few wayward bishops, it's a policy mandated from the top.
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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/1/2009 8:54:42 PM   
TheHeretic


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It's the Gelgamek vagina.  What else are they supposed to do???

Interesting article.  These stories don't seem to be coming out nearly as often as they were for a while. 

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/1/2009 9:45:21 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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Amazing what abuses can happen under the cover of organized religion. And when anyone mentions these abominations, they are branded "intolerant" or "bigoted". To me, it's a straight forward matter. Any organization that fosters, advances or tolerates the molestation of children should be driven from the face of the earth. This goes as much for the Catholic church as NAMBLA.


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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/1/2009 10:12:39 PM   
TheHeretic


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I think it is a great leap to go from attacking this sort of abuse, which is an abomination, to the more generalized attacks on all people of any faith.  This still isn't an excuse for the sort of self-congratulatory bigotry displayed by the likes of Bill Maher and some on these very forums.

Personally, I think a terrific solution to this would be to apply the death penalty to the perpetrators of the abuse, but I imagine you would be in agreement with the Catholic Church on that issue.

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 12:53:48 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Personally, I think a terrific solution to this would be to apply the death penalty to the perpetrators of the abuse, but I imagine you would be in agreement with the Catholic Church on that issue.



...well you know i'm not a fan of capital punishment but i certainly agree that the strongest sanction short of that is what such abusers deserve. However i'd also suggest that those who cover up such abuses and shield the abusers should suffer the same fate. If it turns out that senior members of the Vatican colluded in covering up these crimes then, at the very least, they should stand trial for it.

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 1:01:06 AM   
BKSir


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Wow!  I'm absolutely astonished by th... er.. wait... no I'm not.  Nevermind, par for course and status quo continued in the world.  Carry on.

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 3:43:06 AM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

I think it is a great leap to go from attacking this sort of abuse, which is an abomination, to the more generalized attacks on all people of any faith. ORIGINAL: TheHeretic



This is not "A few bad apples spoiling the bunch." This is a systemic facillitation of child molestation, carried out to the highest levels and condoned, if not outright directed by it's highest authority. That robs the organization involved of any rights, privileges or entitlement to respect. When it comes from an organization claiming to point to morality and spiritual purity, it becomes even more disgusting. This is not something to be tolerated, excused or lessened in any way.

If there ever was a simple, black and white issue in this world, this one is it.

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 4:34:34 AM   
FirmhandKY


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FR:

Crimen sollicitationis

It repeated the rule that any Catholic who failed for over a month to denounce a priest who had made such advances in connection with confession was automatically excommunicated and could be absolved only after actually denouncing the priest or at least promising seriously to do so.

...

Canon 904. In accordance with the apostolic constitutions, in particular the constitution Sacramentum Poenitentiae of Benedict XIV of 1 June 1741, a penitent must within one month denounce to the local Ordinary or the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office a priest guilty of the crime of solicitation in confession; and a confessor must, under a grave obligation of conscience, inform a penitent of this duty.

Canon 2368 §1. Anyone who has committed the crime of solicitation dealt with in canon 904 is to be suspended from celebrating Mass and hearing sacramental confessions and, if the gravity of the crime calls for it, he is to be declared unfit for hearing them; he is to be deprived of all benefices and ranks, of the right to vote or be voted for, and is to be declared unfit for all of them, and in more serious cases he is to be reduced to the lay state.


...

The document's title, "Instructio de modo procedendi in causis sollicitationis" (Instruction on procedure in solicitation cases), indicates that it was composed to indicate how to carry out a canonical investigation into accusations of solicitation. It described the procedures to be followed in each phase: reception of a denunciation; the course of the investigation, summoning the accused, sentencing, and the possibility of appeal.

The result of the investigation could vary:

* if the accusation appeared to be unfounded, this was stated in the record and the documents containing the accusation were destroyed;
* if only vague evidence emerged, the case was filed away for use if fresh evidence appeared;
* if the evidence was strong but insufficient for arraigning the accused, he was given an admonition and the records were preserved with a view to any further developments;
* if the evidence was strong enough, the accused person was summoned and a canonical trial took place.

Quoting canon 2368 §1 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law, then in force, Crimen sollicitationis, 61 indicated the penalties that could be imposed after conviction. These penalties, such as suspension a divinis, deprivation of an office or rank, and reduction to the lay state, were of public character, even if the trial itself had been conducted with all due secrecy.

The same part of the document laid down that, in addition to those penalties and not as a replacement for them, penances should be imposed on guilty priests, and those in danger of repeating their crime should be subjected to particular vigilance (64).

Except in connection with the sacrament of Penance, canon law imposed no legal obligation - though a moral one might exist - to denounce clerics guilty of engaging in or attempting a homosexual act; but the procedure described in Crimen sollicitationis was to be followed also in dealing with such accusations (71-72). And any gravely sinful external obscene act with prepubescent children of either sex or with animals engaged in or attempted by a cleric was to be treated, for its penal effects, as equivalent to an actual or attempted homosexual act (73).

Unless solicitation in connection with Confession was involved, not only the local bishop but also superiors of religious orders exempt from the jurisdiction of the local bishop could proceed, either by formal trial or non-judicially ("modo administrativo"), against members of those orders who had committed such crimes; superiors of non-exempt religious orders could also do so, but only non-judicially (74).

...

The document thus imposed absolute secrecy on the conduct of the trial, even after it had ended and its verdict, favourable or unfavourable, had been put into effect. An oath of secrecy was to be taken not only by the members of the tribunal but also by the person or persons denouncing the priest, by the witnesses, and by the accused priest himself, who was free to discuss it only with his defence counsel (Section 13 of the document).

...

The document dealt exclusively with the procedure to be followed in connection with a denunciation to the ecclesiastical authority of a priest guilty of solicitation in Confession or of similar acts. It imposed secrecy about the conduct of the ecclesiastical trial, not allowing, for instance, statements made during the trial by witnesses or by the accused to be published. But it did not in any way impose silence on those who were victims of the priest's conduct or who had learned of it in ways unconnected with the ecclesiastical trial.

"These matters are confidential only to the procedures within the Church, but do not preclude in any way for these matters to be brought to civil authorities for proper legal adjudication. The Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People of June, 2002, approved by the Vatican, requires that credible allegations of sexual abuse of children be reported to legal authorities."

...

Some interpret the secrecy about the procedure as a cover-up of scandalous conduct. This view was presented in a BBC documentary film Sex Crimes and the Vatican [1] of 1 October 2006.

Others see it as aimed rather at the protection of all involved, the accused, the victim/denouncer and the witnesses, before the verdict was passed: "It allows witnesses to speak freely, accused priests to protect their good name until guilt is established, and victims to come forward who don’t want publicity. Such secrecy is also not unique to sex abuse. It applies, for example, to the appointment of bishops."

***



Of course, this is just the Wikidpedian take on the subject, so I'd be interested in anyone else's translation and explanation.

Firm

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 4:52:20 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

This is not "A few bad apples spoiling the bunch." This is a systemic facillitation of child molestation, carried out to the highest levels and condoned, if not outright directed by it's highest authority. That robs the organization involved of any rights, privileges or entitlement to respect. When it comes from an organization claiming to point to morality and spiritual purity, it becomes even more disgusting. This is not something to be tolerated, excused or lessened in any way.

If there ever was a simple, black and white issue in this world, this one is it.



While I agree the Vatican were wrong to cover this up, I dont feel thats the same as condoning or directing it. You need to remember almost all of those abused by Priests would have been Catholics. They would have felt this is an abomination the same as the rest of us. I agree those who helped cover it up should be investigated by the police and if there is just cause, prosecuted not persecuted.

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 4:57:08 AM   
Politesub53


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Firm thanks for posting that. There is no doubt in some cases Priests accussed of abuse were moved to a new parish, so at some level there was a cover up. How widespread this was, or how high up it went, remains to be seen.

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 6:20:53 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
While I agree the Vatican were wrong to cover this up, I don't feel thats the same as condoning or directing it. You need to remember almost all of those abused by Priests would have been Catholics. They would have felt this is an abomination the same as the rest of us. I agree those who helped cover it up should be investigated by the police and if there is just cause, prosecuted not persecuted.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
This is not "A few bad apples spoiling the bunch." This is a systemic facillitation of child molestation, carried out to the highest levels and condoned, if not outright directed by it's highest authority. That robs the organization involved of any rights, privileges or entitlement to respect. When it comes from an organization claiming to point to morality and spiritual purity, it becomes even more disgusting. This is not something to be tolerated, excused or lessened in any way.

If there ever was a simple, black and white issue in this world, this one is it.



I completely agree, the people who protected these pedophiles should serve jail time. At the vary least the Cathloc Church should lose it's tax exempt status until it starts turning complaints of sexual abuse by priests AND the documents on said priests over to the police.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Personally, I think a terrific solution to this would be to apply the death penalty to the perpetrators of the abuse, but I imagine you would be in agreement with the Catholic Church on that issue.


Well, I certainly don't understand why we keep letting pedophiles out of prison.

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 6:24:16 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

I think it is a great leap to go from attacking this sort of abuse, which is an abomination, to the more generalized attacks on all people of any faith. ORIGINAL: TheHeretic



This is not "A few bad apples spoiling the bunch." This is a systemic facillitation of child molestation, carried out to the highest levels and condoned, if not outright directed by it's highest authority. That robs the organization involved of any rights, privileges or entitlement to respect. When it comes from an organization claiming to point to morality and spiritual purity, it becomes even more disgusting. This is not something to be tolerated, excused or lessened in any way.

If there ever was a simple, black and white issue in this world, this one is it.



Agreed.


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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 6:33:25 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I think it is a great leap to go from attacking this sort of abuse, which is an abomination, to the more generalized attacks on all people of any faith.  This still isn't an excuse for the sort of self-congratulatory bigotry displayed by the likes of Bill Maher and some on these very forums.



Rich, I don't agree with you often but this is one of those times.

With the exception of the Mormon church, I don't even think that any other religion is so hierarchical that it COULD have a scandal affect the entire organization.

And to condemn Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Protestants, Mormons, and Muslims for an issue in the Catholic church is bizarre.


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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 6:40:35 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Firm thanks for posting that. There is no doubt in some cases Priests accussed of abuse were moved to a new parish, so at some level there was a cover up. How widespread this was, or how high up it went, remains to be seen.


Sorry, I won't have time to get into the documents with you guys for a couple of days. In the meantime, I'll leave you and firm with a question. If Cardinal Bernard Law wasn't towing the party line, why did he get a promotion instead of being fired?

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 6:45:56 AM   
Lostkitten3


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George W Bush pardoned the Pope of any sex related crimes in the U.S. in 2007.
So Georgie made the cover up possible, and now no one can civilly sue the church which promotes pedophiles.
SO disgusting!

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 7:02:50 AM   
LaTigresse


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At some point in time, I believe that corrupt power based organizations, with the Catholic church being one of the biggest and most evil, will implode.

I only hope and pray I am still around to see it.


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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 3:31:33 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Firm thanks for posting that. There is no doubt in some cases Priests accussed of abuse were moved to a new parish, so at some level there was a cover up. How widespread this was, or how high up it went, remains to be seen.


Sorry, I won't have time to get into the documents with you guys for a couple of days. In the meantime, I'll leave you and firm with a question. If Cardinal Bernard Law wasn't towing the party line, why did he get a promotion instead of being fired?


Im not a Catholic so i dont know if the Vatican could just sack Cardinal Law. Maybe someone there ( The US ) could answer you. As yet I have seen nothing to implicate the Pope that would count as proof. Since the show was shown in 2006 I suggest none was found.

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 4:26:32 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

Im not a Catholic so i dont know if the Vatican could just sack Cardinal Law. Maybe someone there ( The US ) could answer you. As yet I have seen nothing to implicate the Pope that would count as proof. Since the show was shown in 2006 I suggest none was found.
ORIGINAL: Politesub53



Let me be politically incorrect here and speak from my heart. Any organization that becomes aware that there is child molestation being committed by its members and does not put rooting them out, putting them in prison and making sure it never happens again deserves to be burned to the ground and salt spread on the ashes so nothing grows there again. This is a true zero tolerance issue.

Also, the Pope (who looks a lot like the emperor in the last three Star Wars movies by the way), is the unquestioned head of the church. He can move or remove any church member he sees fit. He is, by nature of his office, infallible in matters of doctrine. Obviously, homosexual acts between consenting adults is a doctrinal matter, raping children is not.

I do not intend to soften my position on this matter. There is no other side with validity. Any organization that in any way gives aid and comfort to child molesters is worthy of nothing but eradication. If they do not want to be worthy of eradication, then it is entirely incumbent upon them to cease all aid, comfort and cover-ups to those who are using the cover of church protection and respectability to continue to rape children.


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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 4:33:19 PM   
Politesub53


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Which is why i said anyone found guilty of covering up should face the consequences.

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RE: Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests' - 9/2/2009 4:36:03 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Remember it was a long while before they even admitted it was possible.

The problem is: if they admit to the fact it is possible a priest can have the same failings as any other person it undermines the whole notion of some people having a superior spiritual enlightenment to others. Thus it undermines the fact that all people should seek spiritual enlightenment from the Catholic Church. It is no more complicated than that.

I doubt though the Pope has appointed every single Priest, anyone could become one if they said the right things.

When I was at school the careers councillor asked me what I wanted to do, I should have said "I want to heal peoples souls by showing them the gift of Christianity." I could have had a job for life but instead I said "I dunno" It really annoys me this missed opportunity.

edited: giving = showing (people must discover the gift of Christianity for themselves, if they discover the wrong gift well that is just their fault caveat emptor etc.)

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 9/2/2009 4:45:20 PM >


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