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RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 9:23:44 AM

DesFIP

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Contracts can be seen not as you don't trust the other person, but in case they aren't there anymore to do the right thing. Dom dies, long term sub loses home, belongings etc because family has the authority and he left no paperwork saying he wanted her to have the stuff.

But basically I'm with Jeff. I can trust The Man to do the right thing, but I also know that when he decides what the right thing is, he forgets about emotional impact. His criteria include legal, financial and other such things not the intangibles.

I had a friend years ago who could be trusted never to show up on time for a lunch date. So I stopped eating lunch with her because I would lose my whole lunch hour and never get to eat. She got upset, but I was still available to meet at the gym or after work, just not anything where the time mattered.

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RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 9:24:18 AM

lovingpet

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I just see it as real life necessity for some things. I know I probably set up a mess, but the prenup was just an example. Others would be things like marriage contracts, wills, adoption/guardianship papers, and on and on it goes. Life doesn't always behave the way we would like it to. Sensibility along with emotional vulnerabilty can't be impossible, can it? I hope not.

lovingpet

(in reply to subtlebutterfly)

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RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 9:28:34 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VirginPotty

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: VirginPotty

<<<Reading contract

<<<Signing contract on all the required dotted lines.

Kinda cold & impersonal to me & not a good indicator of trusting someone.

Would this apply to such things as a marriage or adoption papers? I agree generally, but then again it is stuff similar to this that I wonder about.

lovingpet

Good point but those are legal documents and an agreement document bet. a D/s isn't legal and you can't be held legally accountable for anything you may or may not do that's spelled out. Morally yes, legally no.
To answer your question, I believe some D/s's NEED everything written out in black/white and for them that's fine.
Personally, I don't need it. If I go renig on anything he will point out an email exchange where I said I would do said activity and would want to know why I changed my mind. That's our "contract" which we will refer back to but rarely because we trust each other to fulfill our obligations.

Same for asking for release. You can't legally be held against your will so in reality it's just a formality.

**Eta my comment about contracts being cold & impersonal reflects the thought of sitting down & spelling out your limits, hard limts etc. Too much like applying for a loan. I can't see where a document would establish trust. That comes from knowing the person**

Some things may not be formalized into legal documents, but regardless, they would be things that are there in an attempt to safeguard someone's welfare most likely. I don't know that putting such things in place or asking for them to be is untrusting. It is definitely cold. I should hope if I am venturing down a path of D/s or M/s with someone I would be smart enough to make good and sure I knew the person well and trusted their character. Character or no, life can leave someone high and dry. Reconsiling the two is just difficult for me for some reason.

lovingpet

(in reply to VirginPotty)

Post #: 23

RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 9:32:38 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I agree with Bita but can also understand what Merc is saying too. I think it depends on the individual relationship and the individuals.

Trust is a different subject. There is no "all or nothing" for me. Personally I see that as setting someone up to fail in a relationship. I like to be realistic. I think I understand human nature pretty well. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. I simply trust a person to be themself, whatever that is. It is my responsibility to understand what that "self" is, so that I don't place false expectations.

Agreed. Some have joked on here about getting married as a way to become a legal slave LOL! I know they were more or less just kidding, but somewhere out there is someone who has used it in that way. To what end exactly, I don't know. Not sure the person would stay long term otherwise? Just a mental game?

In the end, I hope to know my partner well and know what I can expect from him and he from me. That's what allows us to trust. We know who and what we are trusting, not some abiguous ideal.

lovingpet

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 24

RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 9:39:01 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

For me personally, a contract is not a way to improve trust. It's a way to document your mistrust. So I avoid them.

That's exactly my sentiment. Why start a committed relationship with someone already planning its demise? If someone asked me to sign a pre-nup, I'd walk away, simply because the relationship's demise is likely to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. May as well get it over with sooner rather than later. Same thing with a slave contract. If he's not going to do what I want because it makes him happy to do it, a piece of paper isn't going to help any.

I see prenups that way too. It just seems like someone is already sheltering themselves from the fallout of a bad decision. I would much rather enter into something with every belief in it working out. I will say, however, that real life complications can make things go less the way either party wants. I am still very up in the air about slave contracts and so far haven't had to come to any decision on the matter. I know that there are some things well worth protecting no matter how great the relationship is. I would say things like assets, UMs, and other responsibilities/benefits start becoming more important the more long term a relationship is or is becoming. Either party entering into some kind of contract with the intent of giving the other party security seems like a loving act to me, but I think more often than not, it becomes construed as a trust issue. The lines on this are just very weird to me.

lovingpet

(in reply to Venatrix)

Post #: 25

RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 9:43:41 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Contracts can be seen not as you don't trust the other person, but in case they aren't there anymore to do the right thing. Dom dies, long term sub loses home, belongings etc because family has the authority and he left no paperwork saying he wanted her to have the stuff.
But basically I'm with Jeff. I can trust The Man to do the right thing, but I also know that when he decides what the right thing is, he forgets about emotional impact. His criteria include legal, financial and other such things not the intangibles.

I had a friend years ago who could be trusted never to show up on time for a lunch date. So I stopped eating lunch with her because I would lose my whole lunch hour and never get to eat. She got upset, but I was still available to meet at the gym or after work, just not anything where the time mattered.

That's the kind of situation I'm talking about right there. Viewed wrongly, it looks like a trust issue, especially if the submissive asks for such protection. One could say she shouldn't have to ask, but then again, some of us are just more practical minded than others and there is nothing wrong with that person in the relationship being the submissive. Then again, if he asked the same of the submissive, she may feel he is trying to assure (legally) that she is unable to leave or would have great difficulty doing so. Neither is the case, but misread it can cause a lot of hurt. That emotional factor is important.

lovingpet

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 26

RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 9:46:56 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GraciousLady

Some things can be made legal and some things can not. Example: Marriage is made legal to protect material property and children if a divorce happens. You can not legally force trust because it is not a material thing. However, in the case of a D/s or M/s relationship a contract can be an outline of what is expected but is no guarantee since likes and dislikes are not material things and tend to change. How can you sue because someone did not tie you up like you like to be tied up?

See and I don't agree that's why one gets married. I see it as a binding not a failsafing. To me, the trust and compatability would already be there to wish to be bound thusly. Asking to make it legal changes none of that foundation.

lovingpet

(in reply to GraciousLady)

Post #: 27

RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 10:07:38 AM

stella41b

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My trust has more to do with what someone does over what they say. I can take people at face value and give them the benefit of the doubt and I usually do, I can listen and read their words but my trust is related to someone's actions, not their words.

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RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 10:14:40 AM

RavenMuse

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Contracts maybe fun for those who like to play 'loop finding' games, bloody useless outside of that. she trusts Me and I inspire her submission therefor she obeys. If she ever looses that trust or chooses not to submit, the door is thataway don't let it hit your ass on the way out..... nothing else beyond that understanding is needed, not in this household... all the minutia she will learn as she needs to, it falls under the heading of her obeying!

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RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 10:22:17 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

My trust has more to do with what someone does over what they say. I can take people at face value and give them the benefit of the doubt and I usually do, I can listen and read their words but my trust is related to someone's actions, not their words.

I agree. Actions speak much louder than words. In some matters of importance, however, only a document will satisfy powers that be.

lovingpet

(in reply to stella41b)

Post #: 30

RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 10:23:08 AM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

How do you feel about contracts (even legal ones) and their role within a D/s or M/s relationship? Is it fair to ask and still maintain pure trust? Or does it taint that trust to even consider such a thing? I know opinions will vary and I am sure there will be some who will see a distinguishing when it comes to the dynamic itself (D/s vs M/s). I also know it is different for each according to their own personal relationships. General impressions are most appreciated!

lovingpet

i'm pro prenup. as for the other question.

no contract is going to change free will. people make mistakes and i don't see that as a violation of the agreement unless it was willfully done. i would like to believe this person would do everything in their power not to breach my trust and wouldn't have to rely on a piece of parchment as a reminder.

i don't do contracts. i just don't see the purpose for them. nor can they be legally enforced. for me either we're committed to be wholly good to one another or we're not. all the rest is merely icing that becomes moot when those desires change.

porcelaine

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RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 10:35:44 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Contracts maybe fun for those who like to play 'loop finding' games, bloody useless outside of that. she trusts Me and I inspire her submission therefor she obeys. If she ever looses that trust or chooses not to submit, the door is thataway don't let it hit your ass on the way out..... nothing else beyond that understanding is needed, not in this household... all the minutia she will learn as she needs to, it falls under the heading of her obeying!

I also agree with this. I am a very agreeable type person after all! LOL

I guess in the case of this post, I am more fixated on more practical contracts and documents (ie enforcable or evidentiary before a court). I can see some benefit to a slave contract similar to what Mercnbeth discussed, but I have to agree two people simply are going to relate to each other in a certain way or not. I think your response highlights the point for me though. Just because things are put in writing and people sign them, it didn't necessarily have anything to do with lack of trust or willingness to uphold the responsibilities of the position within the relationship. It may even be more that it is wanted as a way give honor to those things that are already near and dear, much as I see the legal act of marriage. It is the formalization and legal recognition of something highly valued by two people. They did so because it allowed them to share all the beauty they had between them with others in some culturally meaningful way.

If I were to ask that a will be drawn up, I doubt that my reason for doing so is that I plan to kill the person in their sleep the day they have signed their assets to me as a beneficiary. Why is there this inherent feeling that making something formal or legal is somehow done from a place of mistrust? If the person wanted me to have those assets and knew there was any possibility that they would go to someone else against their wishes, then why is it such a big deal to have that legal assurance? It seems protective to me. It seems like something that is done to honor that trust I have in the other person.

We have two different issues tangled together and it's my fault for the way the OP is written, but I don't think it really matters all that much. Slave contracts or legal documentations tend to conjure up a lot of the same feelings.

lovingpet

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 32

RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 10:39:01 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

no contract is going to change free will.

Absolutely agreed. If a piece of paper reinforces what that free will is choosing though, what's the harm?

lovingpet

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 33

RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 10:40:23 AM

Missokyst

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I don't do contracts unless there is money involved. As for trust I believe in the old adage, trust but verify.

In other words I basically believe people when they say they are A,B, or C, until I can clearly see they are not. It is part of the process of getting to know them. I know my sister is always 1 hr late. I know I get lost when I haven't been somewhere before. I know that my old boss at wallyworld was more likely to keep up a show of friendship and let someone else do the dirty work. These are things learned over time. I trust me to know when to trust completely.

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 34

RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 10:58:16 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

How about if those reservations (that aren't really reservations mind you) were quite a bit more concrete? Reality is, there are some things that are a little too big to be wagering on faith and pixie dust. Some things just require a bit more of a formal pronouncement of intent and responsibility.

Well, you certainly have to know what you're trusting before you trust it.

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RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 10:59:20 AM

SexyCarrot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

When it comes to trust, it really ought to be a rather simple thing. Either you trust someone or you don't. Right?

Wrong. Trust is earned... not "simple" at all.

quote:

How do you feel about contracts (even legal ones) and their role within a D/s or M/s relationship?

Quite frankly, I feel BDSM contracts are a joke... and there's no such thing as a "legal" one because you can't enter into an illegal (slavery is illegal) contract. Personally, I think all the contract silliness has less to do with "trust" and more to do with some thinking (incorrectly) that an alleged BDSM contract somehow binds someone should they change their mind. We all know it doesn't, as the door is always there to walk out of.

< Message edited by SexyCarrot -- 9/3/2009 11:00:47 AM >

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RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 11:00:18 AM

NihilusZero

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A contract is likely to serve a fruitful purpose in terms of lining out expectations and goals in a more thorough and precise way than just conversation and memory would. It's not a bad idea as far as assisting the delineation of the things in which trust is expected.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 9/3/2009 11:02:59 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 11:07:37 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyCarrot

Wrong. Trust is earned... not "simple" at all.

Meh. I still have an ambivalence to seeing it this way. Trust is only really earned in the head of the person giving it. Either the person they are determining the trust of is of the sort of character that would deserve it or not irrelevant of whether the perceiver has arrived at a place where they are aware of it.

It has more to do with the person giving the trust than with the person receiving it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyCarrot

quote:

How do you feel about contracts (even legal ones) and their role within a D/s or M/s relationship?

Quite frankly, I feel BDSM contracts are a joke... and there's no such thing as a "legal" one because you can't enter into an illegal (slavery is illegal) contract.

The question was framed asking about their role "within a D/s or M/s relationship", not within the parameters of legality.

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Post #: 38

RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 11:18:22 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyCarrot

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

When it comes to trust, it really ought to be a rather simple thing. Either you trust someone or you don't. Right?

Wrong. Trust is earned... not "simple" at all.

quote:

Actually, in the snipped portion, I stated that for some trust must build over time. Still, within those areas where trust has been gained, a contract could seem like that trust has been forfeited.

How do you feel about contracts (even legal ones) and their role within a D/s or M/s relationship?

Quite frankly, I feel BDSM contracts are a joke... and there's no such thing as a "legal" one because you can't enter into an illegal (slavery is illegal) contract. Personally, I think all the contract silliness has less to do with "trust" and more to do with some thinking (incorrectly) that an alleged BDSM contract somehow binds someone should they change their mind. We all know it doesn't, as the door is always there to walk out of.

I added even legal ones in parenthesis for this very reason. Nope. Slave contracts are not legally enforceable. However, within a M/s relationship, there may be things that are best handled by means of a legal document. So I guess it is more along the lines of how does the understood D/s or M/s dynamic and legal contracts/documents directly impacting the couple function when it comes to building or destroying trust? Do they have a place in such relationships?

lovingpet

(in reply to SexyCarrot)

Post #: 39

RE: I Trust You, But... - 9/3/2009 11:18:26 AM

SexyCarrot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

A contract is likely to serve a fruitful purpose in terms of lining out expectations and goals in a more thorough and precise way than just conversation and memory would.

At bare minimum, a "contract" must be enforceable, or no contract exists. A BDSM contract does not meet this requirement, and so, it is wrong to even term it a contract. What you're referring to is a list of expectations. Nothing more. It's not a contract because (a) nobody can legally bind themselves or anyone else to an illegal activity, and (b) it's not enforceable. Personally, I'd not only laugh my ass off if someone was dumb enough to present me with a BDSM contract, but it'd send me straight for the door, knowing the supposed Dom/me had just exposed themselves as a foolish twit.

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