RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/4/2009 9:41:50 PM)

It's nice to know Firm is so firmly in favor of lying to young people.

The Texas social science standards have been heavily influenced by David Barton. Barton is perhaps best known for simply making up quotes attributed to the Founders to support his claim that the seperation of church and state was not the intention of the Founders. He is also an advocate of the institution of an old testament based theocracy in place of the US government (see his involvement in the openly christian reconstructionist Providence Foundation).

Another so called expert involved in the social science standards is Peter Marshall of Peter Marshall Ministries. Who opposes public education.

The Texas Board of Education is a disaster both for the students in Texas and for the nation as a whole as Texas buys textbooks on a statewide basis and therefore has an outsized effect of what is in those textbooks.



TheHeretic -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/4/2009 10:00:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arrogance
Creationism is fiction.



"Fiction" seems like a very strong word to decribe the principal creation myth of the planet, Arro.  Certainly when the offered replacement is deeply unsatisfying, and incomplete.  Perhaps a look into integrating into, and expanding the metaphor, rather than insisting that because we can put a man on the moon and do a little math, we have it all figured out?



Arrogance -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/4/2009 10:06:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arrogance
Creationism is fiction.



"Fiction" seems like a very strong word to decribe the principal creation myth of the planet, Arro.  Certainly when the offered replacement is deeply unsatisfying, and incomplete.  Perhaps a look into integrating into, and expanding the metaphor, rather than insisting that because we can put a man on the moon and do a little math, we have it all figured out?


It's a myth. Every culture has own their creation myth. The only reason the Old Testament one is more prevalent is because the culture that created it has spread and flourished.

It's merely a metaphor created a few millenia ago to explain the origins of the universe. It carries no more factual bearing than any other fictional story that's ever been told.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/4/2009 10:11:47 PM)

quote:

"Fiction" seems like a very strong word to decribe the principal creation myth of the planet, ORIGINAL: TheHeretic



I may be wrong, but isn't a myth, by definition, fiction?




TheHeretic -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/4/2009 11:26:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arrogance


It's merely a metaphor created a few millenia ago to explain the origins of the universe.




No.  It is a piece of many much larger mythologies about why we are here, how we should relate to each other, and what it all means.  Discrediting the first chapter, the part rational people understand is for telling the kids anyway, does not negate every other part of the belief system.

Are you suggesting that myths have no value and should be replaced by nothing, or just new myths for the sake of trying to have new myths? 

I dunno.  I was conceived in Texas, and I'm told that counts. 



Arrogance -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/4/2009 11:46:26 PM)

No. I'm saying that they should not be taught in schools as any sort of fact. If you want to talk about them in a "World Religions" course, go ahead and do it. But to put the beliefs in them anywhere near a science class or any sort of fact-based class is ludicrous.

It's fiction with morals. Awesome. So are Aesop's fables. There's no reason for it to be taught in public schools. If parents value it so highly, they can tell their kids about it at home.



Kirata -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/4/2009 11:47:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

I may be wrong, but isn't a myth, by definition, fiction?

Myths are not factual, but may convey psychological (and possibly ontological) truths, just as dreams are fictions, but may hold significance for us nonetheless.

K.



GotSteel -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/5/2009 6:48:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

"Fiction" seems like a very strong word to decribe the principal creation myth of the planet, Arro.  Certainly when the offered replacement is deeply unsatisfying, and incomplete.  Perhaps a look into integrating into, and expanding the metaphor, rather than insisting that because we can put a man on the moon and do a little math, we have it all figured out?


Fiction is accurate, words like superstition and gibberish are as well. How exactly would we expand the metaphor? Would it involve a Ouija board?



GotSteel -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/5/2009 7:06:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Could you, in your own words, tell us why it should be presented that the conservative viewpoint is to be celebrated and all others ignored?




If I may, evolution vs creationism.

chia* (the pet)



Using text books as ad space for conservatives is a bit different than teaching science in science class.



mnottertail -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/5/2009 8:07:31 AM)

I have no problem with the Hebrew (actually probably Chaldean, et al) creationist myth being taught in schools, if and only if they teach the true creationism of Heathen Norwegian Mythology.

Ron



gift4mistress -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/5/2009 8:31:20 AM)

All you liberals sit there and complain about this as if you guys have been keeping your filthy hands out of our school system. HA! 



tazzygirl -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/5/2009 8:36:27 AM)

filthy? damn, i just took a shower!!!

perhaps you need to gain a sense of perspective here, gift.



chiaThePet -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/5/2009 8:56:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Could you, in your own words, tell us why it should be presented that the conservative viewpoint is to be celebrated and all others ignored?




If I may, evolution vs creationism.

chia* (the pet)



Using text books as ad space for conservatives is a bit different than teaching science in science class.


I agree about the ad space, my post was not an endorsement of such. I merely offered an example of
how one side prevails over the other despite opposing views and currents of belief. Our students are
taught that evolution, as science, is the absolute of the accent of man. There are many who would find
disagreement with that, but their position is generally dismissed as lunacy or misplaced need. I find that
interesting in a world where it is estimated that eighty-eight percent of the worlds population are said
to believe in God. (Cambridge University) In the United States, it is reported that ninety-five percent
believe in God. These percentages are of course dispersed among varying religions or groups. Don't
mean for this to take off into a evolution vs creation debate. God forbid...er...fossil forbid....er....

chia* (the pet)



chiaThePet -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/5/2009 8:57:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I have no problem with the Hebrew (actually probably Chaldean, et al) creationist myth being taught in schools, if and only if they teach the true creationism of Heathen Norwegian Mythology.

Ron


How bout if we throw in a Norwegian Heather who creates great head?

chia* (the pet)



GotSteel -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/6/2009 8:12:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

In the United States, it is reported that ninety-five percent
believe in God. These percentages are of course dispersed among varying religions or groups. Don't
mean for this to take off into a evolution vs creation debate. God forbid...er...fossil forbid....er....

chia* (the pet)





That number seems rather high, how old is it? I ask because religion's on the decline in America. Care to cite your source for that number?



chiaThePet -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/6/2009 8:19:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

In the United States, it is reported that ninety-five percent
believe in God. These percentages are of course dispersed among varying religions or groups. Don't
mean for this to take off into a evolution vs creation debate. God forbid...er...fossil forbid....er....

chia* (the pet)





That number seems rather high, how old is it? I ask because religion's on the decline in America. Care to cite your source for that number?



I just googled, front page offered these, I'm sure numbers change, care to ease up.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_believe_in_God_worldwide

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

chia* (the pet)



Musicmystery -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/6/2009 8:24:35 AM)

~FR~

Not to worry. Students never read the books anyway.



tazzygirl -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/6/2009 8:34:24 AM)

According to this site, its 2005 and, world wide, 88% believe in god.

95% believe in god in the US in 2000

http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_516.html

Fully 92 percent of Americans say they believe in God, 85 percent in heaven and 82 percent in miracles, according to the latest FOX News poll. Though belief in God has remained at about the same level, belief in the devil has increased slightly over the last few years — from 63 percent in 1997 to 71 percent today.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,99945,00.html

Your article is discussing those who identify as christians... not those who believe in god... which can encompass many religions. I would tend to go with the results of a Cambridge survey over the results posted in Newsweek.



Arpig -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/6/2009 8:51:10 AM)

quote:

If I may, evolution vs creationism.
Creationism has its place in the classroom....in a comparative religions class, but not in a science class. Why? Simple, it has no scientific basis, it is mythology, therefore the comparison is not appropriate.
Schools have always indoctrinated children, just ask any kid today how they feel about recycling or smoking and you will see what I mean. Schools have traditionally taught liberal political values and conservative social values, at least they do here. Reagan should indeed be taught,as should reaganomics...it is part of history,it should be examined and discussed openly and honestly, without a political aim, but unfortunatly that isn't what seems to be the aim.
Children should learn to think for themselves,ideally that is what schools teach, but; like most ideals it just isn't so. I do have a problem when only one side is presented to kids, especially when dealing with the really contentious issues. Both sides should be presented, but even when that is done the bias of the teacher will colour the presentation, but still the effort should be made.





chiaThePet -> RE: Text Books ... about damn time ... (9/6/2009 9:07:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

If I may, evolution vs creationism.
Creationism has its place in the classroom....in a comparative religions class, but not in a science class.





So each is available to our children then, though separated by individual definition, on a balance in the classroom.

chia* (the pet)



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