RE: Is Atheism a religion? (Full Version)

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LanceHughes -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 8:49:52 PM)

tazzygirl: the brief does NOT equal the article to which you linked. 

You write: "what bothered me about all this is how there are atheists who insist that they believe in nothing, have no formal belief in anything religious, yet seek protection using that same term that abhor (sp) so much."

Ah..... but the prisoners even crossed out the term "religious" on the application everywhere it appeared.  They themselves were not claiming rights because they felt Atheism was a religion.  They wanted a "true" study group on a subject which it turns out is disallowed by the prison (as are other secular topics).

So you should not have been disturbed.  Sorry. You did it to yourself, by (dare I say) believing the "shock" headlines.



LanceHughes -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 8:57:39 PM)

My blood boils when people do not "cite the cites."  You linked (way back) to an article that someone wrote.  You did NOT cite the actual, legal brief (as I did.)

And, if you're going to quote aother's writing, as you do above (from the atheist lawyer's article) it is common courtesy to acknowledge that fact.  No, stronger than that: To ignore acknowledging another author's work is called plagerism.




tazzygirl -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:00:35 PM)

i did NOT plagerize... i linked the article, and proved where i did. its not my job to do your homework and follow a thread. nor did i make any assumptions when i posted that link. i asked questions, because i dont understand atheism. now if you cant admit you were wrong, then dont. but dont throw it back at me. the link was there, in this thread. you missed it in your "blood boiling" state... which you really should have that attended too by your physician.




LanceHughes -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:11:29 PM)

I won't... really I won't rise to your bait.

I used the phrase "blood boiling" as a metaphor.

You write, "i[sic] don't understand atheism."  I use a very simple explanation (especially with my Chsitian friends)when people express that same lack of understanding to me.  (After all, my profile states: Militant Atheist - religious/spiritual need not apply.)

I question such people as to their belief in various Norse, Greek and Egyptian Gods.  Uniformly, they say they don't believe in Thor, Venus, Ra, and so on.  Punchline: "I believe in one less God than you do."



tazzygirl -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:15:06 PM)

and i dont believe in a formal god... now figure that one out

and, yes, i noted that on your profile... which is actually a shame.

i dont pidgeon hole into any religion, or belief. but i dont go around slamming those who do.. or dont. nor do many of my atheists friends... we find other things to talk about.

now, since you have yet to appologize for erroneously accusing me of not citing sources and plagerizing.. i am done with you.



LanceHughes -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:15:12 PM)

OOPS: forgot to add: along those lines of "one less God"  here's a link to Penn (of the Penn & Teller magic/comedy team) who expalins that he is "beyond atheism." He boldly states,  "There is no god." http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557



LanceHughes -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:18:06 PM)

Tazzygirl: your plagerism is the 2nd paragraph of your post #120 (last post on page 6.)

Typical ad hominen argument:  I am done with you.

You write "which is actually a shame."  How about you ask a question like, "Why do you have that in your profile?  I would think it would limit you."

My answer would be: some people have "Hard limit: needles" in their profile.  I (at almost 60 years of age) done with trying to argue the negative.  Life is too short to pay tribute (yes, I choose that word advisedly) to a non-existant thingie.....  Life is too short to waste dollars, time and energy on arguing with someone that I might be interested in having a relationship with.  Better to be "way up front" with my hard limits than not, don't you think?



luckydawg -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:20:28 PM)

Hmm, this is getting rather "how many angels on the head of a pin?"ish.

Basically, a group of people dedicated to the idea that religions should get no rights asked to get the same rights as the religions do (to have a study group, that is different from the regular educational opprotunities), in Jail.




Kirata -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:22:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

my profile states: Militant Atheist - religious/spiritual need not apply.

Do you sing "Onward Atheist Soldiers"?

Easy, easy, just kidding. Seriously, what do you mean by "militant" atheist? Yes, I can use a dictionary. But it's not clear to me how specifically you might mean being vigorously active and aggressive about your Atheism. Do you preach? Do you seek converts?

Just asking... I don't recall ever hearing someone call themselves a "militant atheist" before.

K.








MarcEsadrian -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:24:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world, the universe, and our place in all of it.  Not by having "God," in the mix, not the practice of worship, but based on faith.  By that standard, I think atheism must be considered a religion.  When you start looking at the hoops they jump through to maintain the position, it even becomes a pretty wacky religion.  It also seems to attract a lot of angry people.


In my observations, atheism is a stage one goes through when divorcing from a theistic belief system, and for this reason it is often rife with feelings of revolt or irreverence; an exercising of the demons, so to speak. This is particularly so when one was raised in a religious system, where every sunrise and sunset was framed in chapter or verse. When one living under such conditions changes direction, it often comes with conflict, not only with others, but with some part of the self, too.

The eventual evolution of freeing oneself from religious dogma is neither believing nor disbelieving, but abandoning the folly of that game altogether. This is why I don't refer to myself as an atheist. Where I was originally raised Catholic and rejected the faith in my youth, I have grown since then far beyond the limited scope of the word "atheist", knowing that I will not be defined by what I don't believe in; I will instead be defined by far more relevant things.



LanceHughes -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:37:04 PM)

Kirata: thanks for your question. Here in Denver we have an annual People's Fair.  Literally 250,000 people converge at the Civic Center where just about every ideology and craft, food and ethic group has a "booth"  I love debating the passers by.  I'm out and vocal.  Militant Atheist engage in these types of forums where the non-Militant Atheist might not.  Atheism is a bigger taboo than BDSM.  As a gay man, I saw much change in American society over the last 30 -35 years. The parallels to the "civil Rights" movement were incredible.  (I use parenthesis since gays, BDSMers, Atehists, etc. are sure parts of Civl rights, but you know what I mean - discrimination on race started it all..... well not really, but you know what I mean. LOL)  BDSMers are going thru much of the same.  Atheism will be next.  After that?  Not sure..... might be that everything is un-tabooed (if you will) at that point.

So, at the time, there were Militant Gays, and I just paralled my way to the phrase.  Tell you the truth, I've never seen it used elsewhere. LOL



TheHeretic -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 9:51:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

The thing that always puzzles me is - why are so many religious people absolutely adamant that atheism is a religion?

Why do you guys insist that it's a religion? Why is this so important to you?


I've been wondering that too.



Just to be accurate here, guys, I started the thread asking the question, and I'm not your standard "religious" person.  I haven't set foot in a church, for my own spiritual nourishment, in many, many years (I don't reckon seeing people get married/buried, or tourism, count).  I have a religion, within the definition I think includes atheism, but it is very vague and non-constricting.

I've just been seeing the stream of threads by some atheists (notably absent from a discussion where their anger might come under review) and thought perhaps the glass should be turned.




LanceHughes -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 10:51:28 PM)

The original post was:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world, the universe, and our place in all of it.  Not by having "God," in the mix, not the practice of worship, but based on faith.  By that standard, I think atheism must be considered a religion.  When you start looking at the hoops they jump through to maintain the position, it even becomes a pretty wacky religion.  It also seems to attract a lot of angry people.

Thoughts?


You "understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world..."  Then you re-state your premise as "[religion] is based on faith."
You then state your conclusion as "atheism must be considered a religion."

The middle (a technical term in this context) is missing, but can be derived.  To put  it in a tight, logical form, your argument is:  If faith, then religious.  If atheism, then faith.  Conclusion: If atheism, then religious.

Simply, the middle falls and so does the conclusion.  The strongest thing I can say about my faith/belief system (being an atheist) is that I have faith/belief that the sun will rise tomorrow.  Atheist have no gods.  See my post #124 (page 7) about having one less God than Christians.



LanceHughes -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 11:05:21 PM)

Kirata: nope, we (miltant atheists) don't try to convert.  We provide a warm, welcome to others who have the same life-style as we do.. (Once again the parallels to BDSM run deep, very, very deep.)

Do we "preach"? Nope.  We provide study groups so that new-bies don't have to re-invent the wheel.  Example: We provide counter-arguments for when they might be challenged with some of the same-old, same-old arguments FOR the existence of god.  We can provide links to helpful, appropriate web-sites and dead-tree versions of early writings.  (Once again the parallels to BDSM run deep, very, very deep.)

I like to believe that these are some of the ways that I am " vigorously active and aggressive about [my] Atheism."
 
LOVED the song title.  As a matter of fact many (if not most) Christmas Carols have been re-lyric-sized (if I may.)  That way, one can go to the Mall without being driven totally insane.  Usually, the lyrics are in terms of the Winter Solitice and/or the cycle of life, looking forward to a new year and EASTER, er..... maybe the Spring equinox.  Yes, that's it, renawal of life as evidenced by the coming of Spring, FAITH in the path of the planet around the Sun as evidenced by SCIENCE.
 
It's late, I'm babbling........



Brain -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 11:32:27 PM)

Atheism is not a religion because it is based on science or facts or evidence within the constraints of your definition of religion, which does not include God or Goddess worship. I am an atheist because there is no evidence of God. It has nothing to do with faith, I have no faith. I am only interested in facts/evidence.

EVIDENCE:

The Birth of the Universe Big Bang and Beyond
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSZqhqR5XKM


NewsHour Extra 200 Years Later, Darwin's Theories Still INspire Science, Economics and Politics February 13, 2009 PBS
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/science/jan-june09/darwin_02-13.html


Evolution Deep Sea Vents and Life's Origins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JzUgi6YNlY



The Diversity of Development: Embryos and Evolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UbpL83oJNo&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Euctv%2Etv%2Fsearch%2Ddetails%2Easpx%3FshowID%3D13545&feature=player_embedded

Evolution
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/index.html


The God of the Gaps (by Neil deGrasse Tyson)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vrpPPV_yPY




quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world, the universe, and our place in all of it.  Not by having "God," in the mix, not the practice of worship, but based on faith.  By that standard, I think atheism must be considered a religion.  When you start looking at the hoops they jump through to maintain the position, it even becomes a pretty wacky religion.  It also seems to attract a lot of angry people.

Thoughts?




LanceHughes -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/7/2009 11:50:53 PM)

Brian:  You might like: "Has Science Found God?" by Victor J. Stenger

Spoiler alert!   Do NOT read next word: No.



TheHeretic -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/8/2009 12:13:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian


In my observations, atheism is a stage one goes through when divorcing from a theistic belief system, and for this reason it is often rife with feelings of revolt or irreverence; an exercising of the demons, so to speak. This is particularly so when one was raised in a religious system, where every sunrise and sunset was framed in chapter or verse. When one living under such conditions changes direction, it often comes with conflict, not only with others, but with some part of the self, too.

The eventual evolution of freeing oneself from religious dogma is neither believing nor disbelieving, but abandoning the folly of that game altogether. This is why I don't refer to myself as an atheist. Where I was originally raised Catholic and rejected the faith in my youth, I have grown since then far beyond the limited scope of the word "atheist", knowing that I will not be defined by what I don't believe in; I will instead be defined by far more relevant things.



Thank you, Marc



FirmhandKY -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/8/2009 4:41:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

The original post was:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world, the universe, and our place in all of it.  Not by having "God," in the mix, not the practice of worship, but based on faith.  By that standard, I think atheism must be considered a religion.  When you start looking at the hoops they jump through to maintain the position, it even becomes a pretty wacky religion.  It also seems to attract a lot of angry people.

Thoughts?


You "understand religion as an individual's faith-based way of looking at the world..."  Then you re-state your premise as "[religion] is based on faith."
You then state your conclusion as "atheism must be considered a religion."

The middle (a technical term in this context) is missing, but can be derived.  To put  it in a tight, logical form, your argument is:  If faith, then religious.  If atheism, then faith.  Conclusion: If atheism, then religious.

Simply, the middle falls and so does the conclusion.  The strongest thing I can say about my faith/belief system (being an atheist) is that I have faith/belief that the sun will rise tomorrow.  Atheist have no gods.  See my post #124 (page 7) about having one less God than Christians.

Does this follow?

"Science" is a belief system. Atheism is based on "science". Therefore atheism is a belief system.

Firm



FirmhandKY -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/8/2009 4:44:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

Kirata: nope, we (miltant atheists) don't try to convert. We provide a warm, welcome to others who have the same life-style as we do.. (Once again the parallels to BDSM run deep, very, very deep.)

Do we "preach"? Nope. We provide study groups so that new-bies don't have to re-invent the wheel. Example: We provide counter-arguments for when they might be challenged with some of the same-old, same-old arguments FOR the existence of god. We can provide links to helpful, appropriate web-sites and dead-tree versions of early writings. (Once again the parallels to BDSM run deep, very, very deep.)

I like to believe that these are some of the ways that I am " vigorously active and aggressive about [my] Atheism."

LOVED the song title. As a matter of fact many (if not most) Christmas Carols have been re-lyric-sized (if I may.) That way, one can go to the Mall without being driven totally insane. Usually, the lyrics are in terms of the Winter Solitice and/or the cycle of life, looking forward to a new year and EASTER, er..... maybe the Spring equinox. Yes, that's it, renawal of life as evidenced by the coming of Spring, FAITH in the path of the planet around the Sun as evidenced by SCIENCE.

How is this any different from any other belief system which attempts to encourage, and teach their point of view?

Sounds a lot like proselytizing to me.

Firm



tazzygirl -> RE: Is Atheism a religion? (9/8/2009 5:20:06 AM)

It isnt any different, Firm.



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