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the Chavez Hijack - 9/7/2009 6:31:33 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		I made a very strong statement on the Maher thread about Chavez,

"It is impossible to make the argument that Chavez is anything but a Neo Caudillo."

Arpig attempted to make the argument with ridicule.

Can anyone show me wrong?



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RE: the Chavez Hijack - 9/7/2009 8:11:37 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		What?  A new cadillac?  Well, he's bigger than he needs to be, doesn't stay shiny and new very long, makes funny noises, and probably won't last.

You're right.  (strange way to compare it though)




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RE: the Chavez Hijack - 9/7/2009 8:12:59 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		At least that's a funny use of humor

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RE: the Chavez Hijack - 9/7/2009 8:27:39 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		A new political/military leader? I thought that was pretty evident. Is there a meaning of the word I am missing?

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RE: the Chavez Hijack - 9/7/2009 8:35:08 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Orion, Yes, you are.

"Caudillo is a Spanish word (caudilho in Portuguese) usually describing a political-military leader at the head of an authoritarian power."

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RE: the Chavez Hijack - 9/7/2009 9:07:50 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
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Status: offline 		Ah the last part. I am not as up on Chavez currently, but the last I read he pretty much was absolute in his authority, though it seems to be veiled in a democratic process. Not sure how well that democratic process is, but hasn't he been shutting down radio stations and pretty much gagging a lot of media and protestors?

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RE: the Chavez Hijack - 9/7/2009 9:58:07 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Actually what I ridiculed was the way you listed the evils of Chavez's regime...it was a play-by-play of historical American  practices in Latin America (well except the palling around with Putin, but then again if that is wrong because Putin is effectively a dictator, well then that would be in the American play book as well).

And to those who assume I support him because he is anti-American, well might I remind you of a couple of things....

1) I am not anti-American, I am in fact one of the most vocal pro-American foreigners on the boards, I refer you to this post as evidence: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2775417

2) Those of you who assume I support Chavez are jumping to conclusions with no evidence to back them. I don't support Chavez,however I don't buy into his demonization either.


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RE: the Chavez Hijack - 9/7/2009 10:34:25 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		How is citing HRW "demonizing"?

I am asserting that his policies , especially forming millitary ties with Russia, are very problematic for hemispheric security. That he is major human rights abuser, and worsening. That he appears Power hungry and the head of a corrupt authoritarian group. This isn't Demonising. This is statement of fact.

Latin America is not like Africa, where several Armies from accross the sea battle it out. The relative peace for centuries is the result of the Monroe Doctrine and American Hegemony.


< Message edited by luckydawg -- 9/7/2009 10:41:18 PM >

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RE: the Chavez Hijack - 9/7/2009 10:42:07 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		When you list tactics that have long been part of US foreign policy in Latin America as hateful and reprehensible when done by a leftist, then it is demonization.

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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RE: the Chavez Hijack - 9/7/2009 10:49:01 PM   
luckydawg


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Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		What do you mean long been part of US Policy?


This is some sort of condensing hundereds of years of history while ignoring the reasons and context, to excuse a guy having students and reporters killed now?

How is that not a defense of him?

If you are saying the US is so bad it excuses Chavezes actions, how is that not anti American?

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RE: the Chavez Hijack - 9/7/2009 11:10:58 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		LMAO!!!! Man you really are a hoot!
For one I have neither condemned or excused anything Chavez has done. All I am pointing out is that he is only doing what the US and its surrogates have done in Central and South America for generations. That doesn't touch on the rightness or wrongness of any of it, just that I find it funny that you will condemn it so strongly when it is done by a leftist who doesn't like the US. And I never said the US's actions excused anything...and one does not have to be anti-American to acknowledge the fact that the US has misbehaved quite badly in Latin America. After all you guys try to overthrow any left leaning government that gets elected down there, so much for self determination eh?

And since you brought the idea up, why doesn't the US's actions not excuse Chavez's actions,why is it OK for you to have your clients do it, but not OK when an opponent does it? I am pretty sure that you will still see this as being anti-American, but I can assure you it isn't, its just being honest.

So again, to recap...to point out that  Chavez's actions are no different than those used by the US and its clients is neither a defence of those actions (either by Chavez or the US & its clients) nor is it anti-American.


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Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


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RE: the Chavez Hijack - 9/7/2009 11:42:50 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		All I am pointing out is that he is only doing what the US and its surrogates have done in Central and South America for generations.

I disagree with this and have asked you to explain. How is it the Same?


Let's remeber that Chavez was praised (not by you) in the other thread, and I objected to that. You then jumped in, and I seriously do not see how it is not a defense of Chavez.

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RE: the Chavez Hijack - 9/8/2009 4:46:49 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

For what it is worth, Lucky I do not see it as anti-American based upon the information here. Arpig has always seemed pretty balanced. There are so many references to the other topic, why was this one created all it's own?

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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