RE: Something? Or Nothing? (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 3:02:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

So, the question this thread asks is simply whether or not your life has led you to believe in some greater wisdom
 


I'd estimate that we all believe in something outside of our own existence; something that acts as cause/purpose/adds meaning to life (I mean - after all - why are we so susceptible to conspiracy theories?).

Take politics: ideas of liberty/reason/equality can never be verified and serve the purpose of ordering society beyond our own existence. It's a cause/purpose/adds meaning to life as much as religion is/does. I suppose the difference is that while I would describe myself as essentially a positive person who is open to creative thinking I need at least a modicum of experience to support any conclusion.

So yes: I can observe human interaction and progress over time and arrive at a conclusion on the wisdom of a political movement aimed at the betterment of mankind - we have certain duties to one another etc - which in essence is a greater wisdom beyond my own existence - but I could never believe in religion/god as there simply is no evidence of the existence of a supreme being (call it what you will).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
 
or providence that is fundamentally good and which, if trusted, will guide your steps toward what is best for you, and bring you stength and comfort in time of need -- without defining or interpreting it further.

K.



I suppose I've submitted to the laws and philosophies of this land. Ultimately this is what guides my behaviour.

In times of personal crisis? I tend to be pretty philosophical about life: life's not a bed of roses and when it goes wrong you simpy just dust yourself down and get back on the horse - and providing you've got your health (mental and physical) then you have opportunity.



Rule -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 3:33:22 AM)

There is a lot of wisdom in the posts in this thread so far. Even KatyLied does show an understanding of the way the Divine interacts with entities in our universe.

Spinneroftales has some false premisses: hairs do not consist of living cells (they are keratinized) except for the roots; also I have reason to assume that part of the mind is aware of the every part of the body; thirdly, that since the Divine is 'outside' our universe, and every point in our universe adjoins this 'outside' the Divine is indeed very close to all molecules and atoms in our bodies.

To answer the opening post: The Divine is impartial. Ask and it will be given, if possible - but what is provided must be taken also, as KatyLied implied, or the opportunity evaporates.

I have had miracles happen to me - and some were very unpleasant as to the means employed to effect them.

Greater wisdom or providence? As I said, the Divine is impartial. Wisdom and providence may be asked for and if possible the opportunity for acquiring it will be provided. For example, someone who is without (sufficient) wisdom himself might encounter (at a crossroad) an avatar of the Creator and choose to either ask him or not ask him (or her) the question he desires to have answered.

Being impartial, the Divine is both and neither fundamentally good nor evil; these are merely means to acquiescing to our wishes and desires.

Yes, one may trust the Divine to guide one's steps toward what is best, and to bring strength and comfort in time of need. I am not sure that will work in every case, though.
I am more inclined to prefer Dame Calla's principle of movement. (I ought to get moving myself.)



Anarrus -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 5:09:15 AM)

For those so inclined...

http://www.closertotruth.com/

NG pretty much covered how I tend to think about it all.



Rule -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 5:22:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus
For those so inclined...

I watched a couple of minutes of that. Perhaps interesting for kindergarten persons, but as I already know all that stuff and have heard and read it hundreds of times already, to me it is extremely boring.

Perhaps you, instead of presenting a link or telling that you agree with NG, can add something of substance to the thread, like your own individual answer to the opening post?



TheOneLady -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 5:33:06 AM)

No.  There is the here and now, no "guiding force" in my life (either good or bad).  I live and then I'll die. Period.



Musicmystery -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 6:33:42 AM)

quote:

So, the question this thread asks is simply whether or not your life has led you to believe in some greater wisdom or providence that is fundamentally good and which, if trusted, will guide your steps toward what is best for you, and bring you stength and comfort in time of need -- without defining or interpreting it further.


Hi Kirata,

No--it fact, it has led in then opposite direction, away from that, if we're looking at a providence. While I'm fond of many beliefs, many of which I've held when younger, I regretfully can find them only wishful thinking, without solid basis, even with evident contradiction. I do, of course, nonetheless carry many of the values and thinking of the culture in which I've been raised.

Wisdom is another matter, both a good guide and providing strength and comfort--without overthinking it. We are part of nature, part of a system. Living within the possibilities and cycles of that system (essentially, facing reality, but without the negative overtones that phrase can carry), seeking a healthy balance in all things and with all things (I am partial to philosophical Taoism), striving to live truly present, cognizant of the past and preparing for the future but being fully in the present moment, taking responsibility for my choices while not playing victim to outside forces, using downtimes to address problems, using up times to set aside for harder times--and working to progress while keeping it simple, letting go of the mental contortions that can cloud our experience in baffling and insidious ways. I can't grow fruit in February--but if I prune all the trees over the winter, I'll have a lot more fruit in the warmer seasons. Wisdom is also difficult--I, like most, have blind spots, and I work to gradually replace poor habits with healthier, more balanced, more effective and fruitful ones.

Nor do I leave this practice to chance. I don't accept the mystical methods I used to see, but I do find a positive focus opens growth possibilities, and I daily begin with a conscious focus. I run or ski daily through the forest, an hour or two, partly for exercise, partly to clear my mind. I also meditate to return to a calm (or at least calmer) state of mind and relaxation.

Incidentally, I also find regular sex, romantic touch, the contact of friends and acquaintances, not merely nice but essential. We are social creatures. I also hold with those who find regular mental stimulation both enjoyable and a need, including keeping the mind sharp as we age. For me, this absolutely includes the arts, especially music, but all the arts.

Yes, this leaves a lot unexplained about life. But not everything has an explanation. I can, however, live as fully and as joyfully as I can, accepting the life that I have, and living it well.



GotSteel -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 7:51:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
Now, that brain may direct that the hair on the body be cut. This results in the ending of existence of a very great number of cells. The brain is not individually aware of those cells it is killing.


Hair is not composed of living cells.



mnottertail -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 7:52:11 AM)

is the Brain aware of that?



GotSteel -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 8:03:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Without this belief there would be no reason to call any action good or bad.


That's a rather large assertion, would you please back that up?



Musicmystery -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 8:08:56 AM)

Good and bad are, in fact, arbitrary distinctions.

Ask any Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist....or for that matter, any number of philosophers.

Not to mention that the rest have tremendous difficulty agreeing which is good and which is bad.

One makes assumptions. Good and bad flow from there. Assumptions. It's among the reasons why good turns bad and bad turns good.



kdsub -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 9:46:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Without this belief there would be no reason to call any action good or bad.


That's a rather large assertion, would you please back that up?


My reasoning is basic and simple…without something to measure by or compare too any action in itself is neither good nor bad. This measure does not have to be a religion but it does need to be a belief system that one action is good and the other bad.

Otherwise without beliefs of any kind murder would not be bad…it would just be a happening…Charity would not be good… perhaps just convenient. In an uncaring random universe all actions would be meaningless and in fact never really even happen…Not with the inevitable oblivion we personally and collectively face in the eternity of time. If nothing can be measured or remembered or affects nothing in the current reality then it did not happen.

In the infinity of time in a sterile universe all will be forgotten eventually and never rediscovered...it would be a terrible useless place and thought.

Butch



Musicmystery -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 11:33:52 AM)

quote:

without something to measure by or compare too any action in itself is neither good nor bad. This measure does not have to be a religion but it does need to be a belief system that one action is good and the other bad.

Otherwise without beliefs of any kind murder would not be bad…it would just be a happening…Charity would not be good… perhaps just convenient. In an uncaring random universe


That's a bit of jump. Instinctual self-preservation and well-being of the species would also explain this, all without the universe caring or by adopting a value system beyond that of other creatures.



Rule -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 12:51:05 PM)

I surmise that kdsub wants life to have meaning.



cpK69 -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 1:07:38 PM)

~fr~

A greater wisdom, yes, but neither good nor bad... acceptance causes a following, and can bring strength and comfort.

Kim



Laymedown60 -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 4:05:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


That's a bit of jump. Instinctual self-preservation and well-being of the species would also explain this, all without the universe caring or by adopting a value system beyond that of other creatures.


Not a jump at all...because if your version were possible it would have happened...that has not been the case through human history...There has always been a value system outside of survival and self preservation.

L



Musicmystery -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 7:10:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Laymedown60

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


That's a bit of jump. Instinctual self-preservation and well-being of the species would also explain this, all without the universe caring or by adopting a value system beyond that of other creatures.


Not a jump at all...because if your version were possible it would have happened

Why? All possible things have happened?

...that has not been the case through human history...There has always been a value system outside of survival and self preservation.

For civilization, yes. For one million years of human history before that? I dunno.

L



Rule -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 7:51:06 PM)

Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.



Musicmystery -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 8:40:14 PM)

You'll note the book is controversial, the evidence unsubstantiated.

That aside--you're both confusing possibility with causality.



Rule -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 9:21:30 PM)

There was this young male monkey or ape in Africa. I had just mated for the first time and was walking about all proud and showing off. Then it ignominiously fell in a ditch because it hadn't been paying attention to the ground it walked on. It scrambled out of the ditch, glanced about quickly to see if the other monkeys had noticed his disgrace, and then it quickly and furtively walked away. Possibility? Or causality?

It is a characteristic of mammals that they care for their young, mate and relatives. Caring most often requires fair play.

Birds are less fair play inclined. Of course there once was this stork that had broken a leg in The Netherlands. It may have been a thousand years ago. It was cared for by a Dutch woman and when it was healed and the time came, it joined the other storks and flew south (to Africa). The next year it returned in the spring, landed before the woman and opened its bill, releasing a huge stone that it had retrieved from a far away stream (in Africa). This stone glowed green in the dark. My hypothesis is that this stone later became known as the Florentine, a huge diamond. Anyway, the abbott asked for the stone and it was put on display on the inside wall of the church, and in exchange the woman was cared for in her old age. Possibility? Or causality?



Musicmystery -> RE: Something? Or Nothing? (9/13/2009 11:35:13 PM)

When you've got demonstrable, replicable methodology, come on back to the science table.

Until then, you've got guesses, interpretations and anecdotes.

But get going on that animal penal code, just in case.



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