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insecurity and opinion - 8/27/2004 11:30:32 PM   
ShrewWhisperer


Posts: 63
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		A growing trend I've seen in different parts of the country, as the life becomes more and more mainstream, is we (as a community define that as you will) are following the normal religious road of 'whatever I do is right and whatever they do is herasy'....One of the things which always attracted me to the people who were hardwired into the life is that everybody had their own level of enjoyments....and could respect what others could or couldn't do.

The anger in people, and the judmental nature of this new crowd of folks sorta has me confused. Other than the normal sociological truth that "people suck" can anyone tell me why we (as collective) are heading down this small minded bigotry?

my own short answer is that people with fetishes are flocking into the ranks of people who understand Adler was right in hopes of talking someone into sharing their fetish under the guise of power exchange, I'd be interested in other opinions
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/27/2004 11:57:51 PM   
LadyShoshin


Posts: 492
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Burlington, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:


The anger in people, and the judmental nature of this new crowd of folks sorta has me confused. Other than the normal sociological truth that "people suck" can anyone tell me why we (as collective) are heading down this small minded bigotry?

my own short answer is that people with fetishes are flocking into the ranks of people who understand Adler was right in hopes of talking someone into sharing their fetish under the guise of power exchange, I'd be interested in other opinions

For one, there are more people joining the BDSM ranks, more population means more good people, more people with a narrow view point. It reminds me of the roast story, a newly married wife cooks a roast, but cuts the ends off, her husband asks why, she says because her mother always did it that way. The new bride goes to her mother and asks why, her mother replies that her mother always did it that way. The new bride goes to her grandmother and asks why she cuts the ends off her roasts, the grandmother repied simply. "My roasting pan was too small". There will always be people who learned something a certain way and believe any other way of doing it is wrong.

I respect their way of doing things, it works for them and if they give me grief because I do it differently (albeit safely), I Listen to see if what they say has merit, if what I am doing is working for me, I keep doing it and make sure not to spend time with the narrow minded. I don't argue or defend my way, I don't critisize their way, I give them the respect of not interfering.

It is not just the new folks who are narrow minded, some of the old warhorses of the lifestyle resent the "cyber wannabes" and their failure to respect protocol or whatever other bee is in their bonnet.

It is not just BDSM, it is wherever you have a group of people with differing skill levels in whatever.

It is up to us, who understand respect and tolerance to practice it, so others can learn by example.

_____________________________

PHLOX: “It’s unethical for a doctor to cause harm...I can inflict as much pain as I like.”

(in reply to ShrewWhisperer)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/28/2004 1:06:08 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

It is not just the new folks who are narrow minded, some of the old warhorses of the lifestyle resent the "cyber wannabes" and their failure to respect protocol or whatever other bee is in their bonnet.


I feel that more of the old warhorses are the ones with the closed minds. That seems to be where most of the conflict comes from. The old clashing with the new. I don't think that this lifestyle ever really was about being open to all ideas. It isn't neccessary when people only stick with their own groups. But the internet has opened things up quite a bit. Now everyone can mingle and exchange ideas. It's hard for some to accept that.

(in reply to LadyShoshin)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/28/2004 1:43:35 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		insecurity I would think is the wrong thought
however opinions are what fade to black.
Speaking for My self, I can and have seen
the distint differance in what I concider the
Old School and New School way of Lifestyle
living especially since starting with in the
past 6 years to interact with those of the USA
and since the past 10 years or so of theonline
boon.
What many of the US forget is that there
were many whom lived Alternate ways of
living long befor the USA became into being
or befor those of WW2 brought back the
learnings of BDSM with them from over seas and
practice and spread out here the Alternate
Lifestyle ways and Cultures beginnings. I agree with
Estring that the internet has opened up
many things with in the Lifestyle but not
all of it in a positive light either and if any
thing it actually has seperated those whom
practice Alternate ways of living then brought
Us together as the more secret societys of the
past did. There are those of Us whom are set
in Our ways yes. After Living a Lifestyle for a
lifetime and over 30 years Id say that anyone
would be just as stuck in Their ways and those
whom are a part of the new school ways of
experiancing or learning things with in the lifestyle
would not understand nor have a clue as to way
those of Us long time are such staunch oneway
or the highway type People but that is Life learning.
There is unfortunatly a new wave of Lifestylers
developing that are preduduce and even sum racist.
Thats life and those whom have come to this lifestyle
with that kind of baggage only do so because in
todays society they now are whats concidered in
their ways as also being Alternate and Our never ending
bag for ever keeps being filled up with those whom are
caste aways from societys norm and are for all their diversity
being concidered now Alternate Lifestyle which just so happens
to also include BDSM and D/s Fetishes and you name it and We in Alternate Lifestyles now just about got it all! JMO.

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/28/2004 11:33:00 AM   
Sundew02


Posts: 457
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		I think a large part of the problem is that we cannot see each other when we are "talking". And that no matter what we type it is "our opinion". Somethings that I feel strongly about I state very bluntly. And to some that would appear unyielding. No one is right 100% of the time about anything. Type is a black and white thing, literally and figuratively. I can't see your gestures, or make eye contact. Both of which would let me know, is this a passion, an interest or a teasing comment? Icons and "laughing" can only convey so much information. And yes of course the more we relax with each other the more verbal (figure of speech) we become. Myself I enjoy a good discussion, do I think I will change another Dominants mind? Well no, smile, but neither will I roll over and play dead. (that was said teasingly, but still how I feel). Sundew

_____________________________


~~~~~Enjoy the ride, the landing could get painful~~~~

(in reply to ShrewWhisperer)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/28/2004 11:49:21 AM   
squirrelfury


Posts: 44
Joined: 8/20/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline 		From my own group and personal observations, it's always seemed that there was a seldom-breached barrier of resentment between those of us fresh to the scene and the "Old Guard" already well-established within it. If its true beyond just my perception, then I can see numerous reasons why it would be so, though I don't tend to agree with them.

As for internet vs "real life", people who are strictly offline lifestylers tend (in general, with apologies from me made for those whom this doesn't hold true) to be a bit disdainful of those who practice both on and offline, or online exclusively. I'm sure they have their reasons for thinking so, not that they seem valid in my eyes. Then again, my validation isn't necessary. *smiles wryly*

And, lastly, to the main topic. Yes, there's alot of "my kink is okay, yours is just sick" going on. What amazes me now is how that changes with more time and experience. What I wouldn't do yesterday is something I'd consider today, and something I'll be happily slutting and rutting in tomorrow. For me, it was anal play. Once I realized that that mental block had been busted wide, I found that other "sick" limits became less tangible. I still have things I won't do, of course, and I've never bought into anyone saying they have absolutely no limits, but I now see that the line is drawn in sand instead of concrete, and is movable.

*shrugs*

All this just goes to show one thing. I'm pretty damn long-winded for quarter to four in the mornin'. *grins*

_____________________________

~Squirrel~
I wept for I had no shoes, then I met the bastard who took them. Who's crying *now*, fetish-boy?

From a word to a word I was led to a word, from a deed to another deed.

(in reply to Sundew02)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/28/2004 1:27:54 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

As for internet vs "real life", people who are strictly offline lifestylers tend (in general, with apologies from me made for those whom this doesn't hold true) to be a bit disdainful of those who practice both on and offline


WhAt ThOsE wHoM
pRoFeSs hErE aS
oFfLiNe lIfEsTyLeRs
WhOm BaLk aT tHe
AdMiTeD oNeLiNe
pLaYeRs Is ThE
rEaLiTy ThAt tHeY
aRe oNeLiNe PlAyErS
tOo jUsT bY bEiNg
oNlInE AnD mAkIng
CoMmEnT oN a
LiFeStYle BoArD...
JMO

(in reply to squirrelfury)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/28/2004 1:36:25 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

quote:

As for internet vs "real life", people who are strictly offline lifestylers tend (in general, with apologies from me made for those whom this doesn't hold true) to be a bit disdainful of those who practice both on and offline


WhAt ThOsE wHoM
pRoFeSs hErE aS
oFfLiNe lIfEsTyLeRs
WhOm BaLk aT tHe
AdMiTeD oNeLiNe
pLaYeRs Is ThE
rEaLiTy ThAt tHeY
aRe oNeLiNe PlAyErS
tOo jUsT bY bEiNg
oNlInE AnD mAkIng
CoMmEnT oN a
LiFeStYle BoArD...
JMO


Perhaps this is your reality, it doesn't happen to be mine, nor does your version of reality apply to a lot of other people that enjoy the exchange of ideas and opinions on these boards.

~Thorns

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/28/2004 2:12:28 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		In my opinion, the notion that being in this lifestyle automatically makes you more accepting or tolerant is wrong. Liking to smell or wear womens' shoes, or enjoying flogging a sub doesn't make you any more tolerant of others. In my dealings in this lifestyle, though I have met many wonderful, open minded people, I have seen just as many intolerant, messed up and stupid people as anywhere else.
But I also feel that sometimes people mistake having strong opinions for being intolerant. They are not the same thing.

(in reply to ShrewWhisperer)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/28/2004 2:26:36 PM   
NoCalOwner


Posts: 241
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: squirrelfury
Yes, there's alot of "my kink is okay, yours is just sick" going on. What amazes me now is how that changes with more time and experience. What I wouldn't do yesterday is something I'd consider today, and something I'll be happily slutting and rutting in tomorrow. For me, it was anal play. Once I realized that that mental block had been busted wide, I found that other "sick" limits became less tangible. I still have things I won't do, of course, and I've never bought into anyone saying they have absolutely no limits, but I now see that the line is drawn in sand instead of concrete, and is movable.

There certainly is some of that... not a ton of it here, relative to most places, but I think that it's inevitable that there will be some, and I don't expect that to change. There will always be people who get off on doing things without consent, trashing hard limits, being dangerously or lethally sadistic, doing stuff to small kids, or going way beyong the pale in one way or another. One person's kink can still be another person's brutal rape. Whether or not people are harmed can't be a line, because some people want to be harmed, including in ways which are permanent. I remember of a case where a woman shopped around on the Internet for a sadist who would be willing to spend a few days torturing her to death, and did manage to find one. Hey, it was consensual, right? Or the case in Germany where a guy volunteered for cannibalism, and was eaten alive for the 10 hours it took him to bleed to death, then the remainder of him put in the freezer and consumed later. Again, there was consent, the guy even tasted some of his removed parts and urged his killer to keep cutting.

There are lots of practices which I don't care for, and in 99% of those cases I won't go beyond "it's not for me, but whatever floats your boat." But there are people who would like to do things that truly ARE sick. Whatever lines we may draw, someone will always be resenting them, calling them arbitrary, and thinking that we are a-holes for refusing to accept what they like. It need not be bizarre or even unusual, there are millions of rapists in the world, and I'm sure that many of them don't think they've done anything wrong. Ditto for the millions of pedophiles.

So I don't see this as an issue where there will ever be consensus. Each of us should try to be accepting of kink, but each of us will also have to define for ourselves what is kink and what is harmful, wrong, sick.
quote:


As for internet vs "real life", people who are strictly offline lifestylers tend (in general, with apologies from me made for those whom this doesn't hold true) to be a bit disdainful of those who practice both on and offline, or online exclusively. I'm sure they have their reasons for thinking so, not that they seem valid in my eyes. Then again, my validation isn't necessary. *smiles wryly*

While there are some who frown on it, I think that it's much more common for people to simply have no interest in it. I don't care if other people want to have cyber or phone sex/submission/whatever, but I suffer no lack of the in-person kind, and just can't get excited about existing alternatives. The only emotional reaction it evokes in me is to feel a little sorry for the people concerned, since I doubt that online stuff is usually their #1 choice either, and that unfortunate circumstances are making them settle, at least temporarily, for less then their ideal.

(in reply to squirrelfury)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/28/2004 4:16:08 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Thorns
To say that You are not a online player but
be here online is saying Your actions speak
louder then Your words. If You do not play
online You would not be here online in an
Adult area that is Used for Adult free time
nor would any of these others You speak of.
(free time = play time to Me )
(play time used online = playing online to Me )
( Collarme Boards = My playground ) ~smiles~
Again JMO
quote:

But I also feel that sometimes people mistake having strong opinions for being intolerant. They are not the same thing

I agree with Estring on this but find sum times that the strong opinions are actually the intolerance thats being shown more then what the opinion is being discussed about.

(in reply to NoCalOwner)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/28/2004 4:29:14 PM   
Sundew02


Posts: 457
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

To say that You are not a online player but be here online is saying Your actions speak
louder then Your words.
I totally disagree with you Dread. That is to liken talking on a phone about D/s to being involved with phone sex. A mode of communication is just that. I enjoy the boards and the challenge of stretching my mind with others of like views. I believe the difference here, is that neither of us would enjoy cybering....meaning attempting to dominant someone untouchable. As to the other, I am aggressive and blunt spoken, but I do not see my self as narrow minded nor am I always right. But at least I take the time to express my opinion, generally politely. Arrogance is not the same as having an opinion. Always having to have the last word, and pick apart anothers opinion by always using my own life experience held up as the correct model, now that is arrogance. Sundew

_____________________________


~~~~~Enjoy the ride, the landing could get painful~~~~

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/28/2004 10:54:48 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

Thorns
To say that You are not a online player but
be here online is saying Your actions speak
louder then Your words. If You do not play
online You would not be here online in an
Adult area that is Used for Adult free time
nor would any of these others You speak of.


I don't use online for "play". My definition of play revolves around me swinging a whip. If I go to a munch and discuss BDSM topics, I'm not playing by my definition of the term. Coming to these forums, to me, is a form of "Virtual Munch". We talk, we argue, we joke, we discuss, etc. I dont swing an online whip, so I don't play online...again...by my definition of the term.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/28/2004 11:13:13 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
munchies are also free times to Me
and that time is what I equal to playtime.

cyber to Me is a form of online sex and I
do not associate this with online play.
I roleplay at times on Gor and it has
nothing to do with sex or cyber however
it is still play to Me. When I am here
in a casual manner such as a munchie
discussing My Opinion of My Lifestyle it is
not about sex but is about My Adult play.
I am still playing when chatting with others
and playing to Me is not a physical action alone.
and discussing and joking around in what I do
for pleasure is to Me play. This is play defined
to Me. If Im seen as Arrogant because I define
play as sumthing different from others so be it.
I have no issue being tagged as Arrogant and
actually concider it compliment.
quote:

what I state I feel strongly about I state very bluntly. And to some that would appear
unyielding. No one is right 100% of the time about anything.

What I feel strongly about I too state very bluntly, and alltho it is true that no One is 100% right about anything each of Us feel that Our rights are 100% right to Us.JMO

(in reply to MrThorns)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/29/2004 8:13:29 AM   
snowleopard


Posts: 18
Joined: 8/16/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

One person's kink can still be another person's brutal rape. Whether or not people are harmed can't be a line,


I would say for me it's is more a case of just because the people involved think no one has been harmed...yet... is a defense/justification that I cannot or will not compromise upon. For example I do not allow the promotion of abusive or unsafe practices on my board, now that begs the questions who decides what is and isn't "safe" and what is or isn't "abusive"? Or even who died and made me god? All are questions I have been asked.

The key in what I have said is I won't allow them to be "promoted" thats not the same as saying they cannot be discussed or that I am intolerant or judgmental. If you come into my home as a guest then I expect that you abide by the normal rules of courtesy and respect and not piss on my rug or shit on my bed. I do expect that if someone posts about a topic or starts a topic that they are able to answer any reasonable question that is provoked by their post, else why even bring it up? If you cannot say why you are doing something or why something is required of you then you have demonstrated that whatever it may be has not been discussed fully between the parties involved, that is possibly neither safe nor indeed sane, nor in truth can it be consensual if you have no idea what it is you have consented to. How is that a bad thing? Surely that opens up a whole world of things that might have been overlooked in the mad heady rush of excitement and passion.

Unfortunately people think that they aren't open to questions, they seem to think because they are now part of an alternative lifestyle which promotes respect tolerance and acceptance of my kink is not your kink but thats OK, that it additionally means that we cannot question or comment upon anything that they then chose to do and call bdsm.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but merely citing their opinion does not mean that anyone else has to share it, nor does it mean it is completely inviolate to being challenged or disagreed with.

In another thread here MD has written a very interesting comment about protecting ourselves from predators and those who would use us or others for their own ends, she cites as do many of us that we should not fear asking questions, and that it is in the responses to questions that we are best able to protect ourselves and others. Yet at the same time I am continually being told that what takes place between dom and sub should not be questioned that it is between them. I do not disagree entirely with that, where I do disagree is when the dom or sub or both place aspects of their relationship into the public domain and feel that they can then use that defense to control how or what others respond to them.

To me it feels like emotional blackmail or manipulation of the worst kind, an insidious way of using the values of this lifestyle against us or at the least to manipulate us into colluding with the compromising of our own values and ethics simply so as to avoid being labeled judgmental or disrespectful of others choices. It is dishonest and it is dangerous, for if we allow the fear of being labled intolerant to stop us asking questions we allow a culture to grow where abuse and predators flourish.

< Message edited by snowleopard -- 8/29/2004 8:16:20 AM >

_____________________________

~submission is something inside you, not something you convince others of by faking an attitude~
Rowenas Ramblings
Snow Time Forums

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/29/2004 12:30:58 PM   
Laceywhips


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/27/2004
Status: offline 		Even in the old school so to speak everyone handled their own set of rules , this means a diversity in what is appropriate for each house.or comunity, I think that many forget to show common respect for each other .Who we interact with is our decission, and who we do not is is also our decision. In this the old addage, you can't please everyone so just please yourself is more important then ever.

(in reply to ShrewWhisperer)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/30/2004 2:57:30 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
good points snowleopard
and I agree wholly with your
comment Lacywhips and this
is where many here take issue
with My rather staunch Ipinions
which I give purposely to practice
the methods to My Madnesses. JMO
~smiles wickedly~

(in reply to Laceywhips)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/30/2004 6:19:04 AM   
Destinysskeins


Posts: 267
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings,

As for the whole debate about people being intolerant of other's kinks and prejudice concerning online vs real-time - call me jaded but i'm just chalking it up to human nature. For me - as long as it's consensual (consensual IMO also includes an open & honest line of communication - if one person is preying upon another's weakness, etc then i don't consider it consensual) between all parties involved and doesn't involve children then my feeling is *shrugs* have at it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: squirrelfury

For me, it was anal play. Once I realized that that mental block had been busted wide,


Sorry, just had to quote that because it made me chuckle.

Well wishes

_____________________________

Wilted petals fall from a rose like bitters tears wrung from a heart whose dreams have shattered. What hope for the future can be seen by eyes that are darkened with sorrow neverending?

i'm not manic-depressive, i just have an elliptical personality

(in reply to squirrelfury)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/30/2004 8:12:15 AM   
Laura


Posts: 573
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring
I feel that more of the old warhorses are the ones with the closed minds.


I've come across a lot of newbies with very strict ideas of what BDSM is allowed to be. They want to fit it into clearly labelled compartments rather than letting it be and learning what is out there.

The funniest thing is having some newbie sub explain to me that I'm not a Domme.

_____________________________

Bait & Switch - Adult column

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: insecurity and opinion - 8/30/2004 8:19:21 AM   
Laura


Posts: 573
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: squirrelfury
From my own group and personal observations, it's always seemed that there was a seldom-breached barrier of resentment between those of us fresh to the scene and the "Old Guard" already well-established within it.


Resentment? Maybe you're looking for it. Myself, I wouldn't work up the energy or have time to resent someone unless there was good cause. It takes effort to dislike someone, it's much easier to just not bother. :)

_____________________________

Bait & Switch - Adult column

(in reply to squirrelfury)
Profile   Post #: 20
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