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Finding faults? - 2/27/2006 8:27:35 PM

chainedupnick

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I'm curious to find out how people take on faults just to make the person who suggested them in the first place "right."

Would you mind sharing some of your experiences with this, how you recognized that you did, and how you handled it?

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/27/2006 9:39:26 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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I'm not sure I understand your question. Could you rephrase, perhaps??

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/27/2006 9:57:21 PM

subscorpsteph

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If you feel your Dom(me) has that strong of a need to be right at all times, that is something you need to recognize and decide if it needs to be addressed. A reasonable Dom(me) will be open to sharing feelings and concepts regarding such a thing, otherwise, you are putting your own self-worth at risk by creating "faults" to meet expectations. Any Dom(me) who is wise would prefer knowing the real 'you' than a psuedo-defective 'you'.

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/27/2006 10:44:09 PM

chainedupnick

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Actually I work that way I think by nature... so it's both a good thing and a bad thing. If I'm around someone who thinks I'm going to succeed all the time then that rubs off on me, but the converse is true too.

Vancouver, I think my mind treats some ideas about faults as suggestions, so that the person observing may inadvertently reinforce the fault. If I respect a person enough, I might accept everything they say as "right," even when they are wrong. (or left

).

Subscorpsteph, I actually think *I* need my Dom to be right, not that He needs that of me. That being said I think I take a lot of stuff He says at face value.

I should probably clarify that I'm not actually with Him at the moment... This is one of the problems I need to address before He'll accept me back.

Thanks for the input,
~Nicholas

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/27/2006 11:26:15 PM

imtempting

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If someone is wrong about something then its better to correct them, especially if its something to do with financials...

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/27/2006 11:56:24 PM

chainedupnick

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quote:

If someone is wrong about something then its better to correct them, especially if its something to do with financials...

But unless I suspect that it's wrong, I'm not going to say anything. Also personality traits are a little more ambiguous and harder to determine right or wrong.

I'm not entirely sure how it works though. So that's why I'm hoping someone who may have had a similar problem in the past posts :).

ttfn,
~Nicholas

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/28/2006 12:56:18 AM

IronBear

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Two points come to mind:

If it isn't broken. why fix it!
I believe in a two way flow if information. If a slave can show me a better way to do something, I'm never too proud to take that on board nor to give credit either.

On a personal note, I take people as they are but like to see them grow and develop their potential. This holds true even if it means that s much loved slave grows out og her slavery and needs to be free. She will be released but will know that she is still a loved friend who can come tom me at any time for advice, company or even just a huge bearish huggle.

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/28/2006 6:01:46 AM

MHOO314

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quote:

Actually I work that way I think by nature... so it's both a good thing and a bad thing. If I'm around someone who thinks I'm going to succeed all the time then that rubs off on me, but the converse is true too.

At the risk of being flamed as an age supremacist--you are still very young and developing who you "are"--although we as human creatures tend to look at others for validation of our beings---we must develop a healthy psyche about who we are and aren't--so start letting another's ideas color your concept of yourself is a dangerous path to tread--for as you get older, you will always reach outward for assurance rather then seeking what you need "inward".

quote:

Subscorpsteph, I actually think *I* need my Dom to be right, not that He needs that of me. That being said I think I take a lot of stuff He says at face value.

Don't confuse Dominance with Omnipotence--it isn't there---Dominants are human with failings---meaning they are at times---wrong--(yes Dom/mes we do at times screw up). Yes a good Dom should and does look after a submissive--but not everything they say should necessarily be taken at face value ---it sounds to Me like there is a huge communication issue--you should be sharing these things with Him. He needs to uderstand you are finding your way through a difficult time, He needs to be teacher, mentor and advisor--

quote:

I should probably clarify that I'm not actually with Him at the moment... This is one of the problems I need to address before He'll accept me back.

Here is where I am confused, didn't you indicate there were some problems with your mother and a lawsuit etc etc etc? So now there are different issues at play? I realize you do not want to share deep details, but the story is getting a tad convuluted from My perspective--IMHO

But He sent you away because of flaws in your character? Not much of a Dom IMHEO.

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/28/2006 6:20:05 AM

collegebeauty

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There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you assume that you have faults, and that any faults that your Dom mentions must be yours, then yes, you will find faults in yourself simply at the suggestion of your Dom. Unfortunately, that's not an altogether healthy thing. Perhaps consider discussing this with Him.

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/28/2006 8:54:02 AM

ownedgirlie

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It has been my experience that the most effective dominant will not point out "faults" in his/her submissive, rather will build on the GOOD characteristics, and as a result, gently sculpt out and change that which he/she does not particularly care for. Building on successes seems the most logical approach to training, giving the submissive a sense of accomplishment and pride from which to build momentum. This is also true in training and developing employees, and i would suspect in raising children as well. The more the dominant appears pleased by such successes, the more the submissive becomes motivated to please further.

The Dominant i submitted to prior to my Master did not have that approach, however. All he could see were the "flaws" and was rather obsessive about them. His way of treating my esteem issues (a result of past ill treatment) was to be angered by them and berate me for them (gee, that's effective...not). 40 days straight of being told what a piece of crap i was....well a girl starts believing what is said to her.

This thread had me thinking about "faults." Strange word, faults. Defined as a weakness or failing. So to be advised of your faults starts you off as a failure to begin with, and i just don't see the effectiveness of that kind of negative motivation. Perhaps it is my own character "fault," but being told i'm a piece of shit does not inspire me to jump up excitedly and exclaim "Oh great, an opportunity to learn NOT to be a piece of shit!!" Instead it causes me to withdraw and retreat inside myself sadly. It's just not a healthy practice.

Someone mentioned self fulfilling prophecy. In the workforce, i came to believe that people will behave as they are treated, for the most part. i was given a group of problem employees and agreed to manage them ONLY if i had autonomy in doing so. i did an experiment, and treated them as though they were all trustworthy and of value. 90% of them rose to the occasion and developed a sense of pride about what they were doing. The other 10% were the exception, and dealt with individually. It was an interesting lesson in bringing out the best in people.

So.....(wow i got WAY off course)...what chained said is a valid sentiment:

If I'm around someone who thinks I'm going to succeed all the time then that rubs off on me, but the converse is true too.

This is not to say a submissive will never fail. Humans fail. It is what it is. But the way a dominant molds and shapes his/her submissive is going to play a HUGE Part in the submissive's success. If you are being told of faults, and the way you are hearing it is hurting you, you may want to speak up about it. Any dominant worth a damn will want what is best out of the submissive, and not want to push him/her down, rather than build him/her up.

Lots of rambling here. Coffee kicked in.

~ 2 cents in the bucket ~

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/28/2006 9:09:35 AM

IronBear

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Of course some one can only hurt you if you let them...

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/28/2006 9:12:51 AM

ownedgirlie

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~ Edited to delete initial reply.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 2/28/2006 9:13:40 AM >

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/28/2006 9:18:43 AM

chainedupnick

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quote:

Of course some one can only hurt you if you let them...

Actually this reminds me of another question: is innocence really a valuable commodity in the Lifestyle?

~Nicholas

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/28/2006 9:23:23 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chainedupnick
Actually this reminds me of another question: is innocence really a valuable commodity in the Lifestyle?

~Nicholas

Innocence really isn't valuable unless you're looking for a blood sacrifice.

That being said, predators, the socially inept, and mentor/protector fetishists love nothing more than fresh new blood.

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/28/2006 9:23:32 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Of course some one can only hurt you if you let them...

i understand this, and agree with it. i see it said so often, how can anyone NOT agree with it? What i think people fail to see, however, is what causes a person to allow themselves to be hurt like that. Some people do thrive on being the victim. Some just like to complain.

However...There is a human dynamic that also comes into play. When a person has been slowly, gradually chipped away, such that as it occurs it is not even recognized, they can lose themselves. A person with a broken spirit is not strong enough to even know they do not deserve to be hurt, let alone stand up for themselves.

Please trust me on this. There are a million books written about the effects of abuse on the human psyche and spirit. my initial response to you was to lash out (apparently i still have some healing to do...~ sheepish smile ~), but that would have been wrong of me, so i deleted it. The truth is, i respect you, and enjoy your posts very much. But your statement triggered something in me...which reminded me of all those people who played a part in stripping down my spirit at one point....and telling me it was my fault for letting them.

Yes there is truth to that. But as i mentioned in my previous post, when one is told how rotten they are - subtly, manipulatively, and over the course of time - they do begin to believe it and think they deserve the ill treatment received. So yes, in some cases they do allow it, because they don't feel they are worth any better.

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/28/2006 9:46:26 AM

IronBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Of course some one can only hurt you if you let them...

i understand this, and agree with it. i see it said so often, how can anyone NOT agree with it? What i think people fail to see, however, is what causes a person to allow themselves to be hurt like that. Some people do thrive on being the victim. Some just like to complain.

However...There is a human dynamic that also comes into play. When a person has been slowly, gradually chipped away, such that as it occurs it is not even recognized, they can lose themselves. A person with a broken spirit is not strong enough to even know they do not deserve to be hurt, let alone stand up for themselves.

Please trust me on this. There are a million books written about the effects of abuse on the human psyche and spirit. my initial response to you was to lash out (apparently i still have some healing to do...~ sheepish smile ~), but that would have been wrong of me, so i deleted it. The truth is, i respect you, and enjoy your posts very much. But your statement triggered something in me...which reminded me of all those people who played a part in stripping down my spirit at one point....and telling me it was my fault for letting them.

Yes there is truth to that. But as i mentioned in my previous post, when one is told how rotten they are - subtly, manipulatively, and over the course of time - they do begin to believe it and think they deserve the ill treatment received. So yes, in some cases they do allow it, because they don't feel they are worth any better.

I rather thought you may lash out. Yes what you say is true and was taught in my first Psych Degree. I will posit though, A person first has to accept that they are allowing someone to hurt them. Then they have to accept that they are either hurting and seeking help or that they are enjoyingthe hurt and the attention they receive. If the former is the case, then we are able to isolate what is cay=useig the hurt and design a game plan to help them and remain as their coach who will help modify the game plan if necessary. If, however the latter is the case then we have to deal with deeper problems which may take considerably longer.... Just the normal daily joys of a Counsellor........ BTW, I was rather hoping some one would take up the torch as you did.. My thanks

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/28/2006 9:48:20 AM

IronBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chainedupnick

quote:

Of course some one can only hurt you if you let them...

Actually this reminds me of another question: is innocence really a valuable commodity in the Lifestyle?

~Nicholas

Nicholas, please define what YOU mean by innocence..

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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Innocence (was RE: Finding faults?) - 2/28/2006 9:57:43 AM

chainedupnick

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Well the definition I had in mind was having little to no experience as a sub.

...perhaps W/we should move this part to its own thread?

< Message edited by chainedupnick -- 2/28/2006 10:04:51 AM >

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RE: Innocence (was RE: Finding faults?) - 2/28/2006 10:05:53 AM

IronBear

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Ok, there are Donimants who prefer a virgin (if you like) as far as the lifestyle goes and there are others who perfer an experienced sub... You just need to locate a Dominany who meets your needs.

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Finding faults? - 2/28/2006 12:56:06 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

I rather thought you may lash out. Yes what you say is true and was taught in my first Psych Degree. I will posit though, A person first has to accept that they are allowing someone to hurt them. Then they have to accept that they are either hurting and seeking help or that they are enjoyingthe hurt and the attention they receive. If the former is the case, then we are able to isolate what is cay=useig the hurt and design a game plan to help them and remain as their coach who will help modify the game plan if necessary. If, however the latter is the case then we have to deal with deeper problems which may take considerably longer.... Just the normal daily joys of a Counsellor........ BTW, I was rather hoping some one would take up the torch as you did.. My thanks

i didn't want to lash out. Not my style plus undeserved. my story is not for a public forum, but suffice it to say sometimes as children we are conditioned to think in a way that is unhealthy for us. Add to that a desire to submit, which is not understood at the time, and one can find themselves in a destructive situation.

i appreciate where you are coming from. And i appreciate your understanding of my post. Sometimes a stand alone "you allowed yourself to be hurt" conjurs up some "Hey now WAIT a minute" thoughts...because the subject is SO much bigger than that......as you well know.

Thanks for bringing it to light.

right back atcha!

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