Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (Full Version)

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LaTigresse -> Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 7:18:51 AM)

I've been thinking about something for a day or so. We debate back and forth on the differences between vanilla and M/s or D/s relationships. Usually, for me, it's really not that big a chasm. But for others, and yes I do see it, there are differences.

I've maintained several vanilla relationships, of various sorts, for over 20 years. The are all pretty sound and very important to me. However, they are not structured in a manner I want a M/s relationship structured. There is not the transparency I demand and give, to an s-type. I don't see the need. It's not asked for, expected, or even wanted. They are just different, for different reasons.

Now, the reason I am bringing this here. I read on here all the time about ideal D or M type qualities. It appears that most s-types hold their D or M, to a higher standard than many people in a non power exchange relationship. For some, good reason. If I were going to give over total control of my life and well being, I would be more concerned about a variety of things I otherwise wouldn't.

I know that when I realized this was the type of relationship I wanted, I needed to do a lot of work on me. I wanted to be the type of person worthy of someone submitting to. Worthy of that trust. In ways that no vanilla relationship needed.

There really is a quality to these types of relationships that, at least in MY eyes, demands the M or D, be more. More trustworthy, more accountable, more responsible, more honourable............etc etc etc. I mean, as a vanilla wife, I sure as HELL was never punished. He never managed my money or bills. He had no say in how I raised my children. None in how I conducted myself in public. Or whether or not I attended an event or how I dressed if I did. And the list goes on.

So, what does happen when the M or D you thought you were collared to, or married to, does something that rocks that foundation of trust? If they behave like an utter ass, not only disgracing you, but themselves? How does that relationship survive, the s-type continue to submit to a person that is somehow less? How do you continue to submit to someone that hurt you, betrayed you, showed themselves to be less honourable, trustworthy, etc?

Now perhaps I am just reading more into this than exists. Maybe it really is just an illusion and these are all, just relationships. We ignore, accept, one another's failings. Stick our heads in the sand and try to focus on their good qualities, ignoring the needs we had that lead us to this type of relationship. Because of course, an s-type, especially a good slave, accepted that collar and have to suck it up. Regardless of whether the M or D is the person they wanted them to be or not?

Most non power exchange relationships, both parties have more freedom to express, "your being a schmuck!! Knock it off or we are OVER!"

I am not suggesting anything. I am just curious how submissives and slaves cope with this sort of issue. When you have put so much trust into a person being so much, how do you cope with the knowledge they aren't? How does it affect your submission and ultimately the relationship?




lovingpet -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 7:58:15 AM)

I hold myself to some high standards and that naturally carries over to others with whom I will relate. The one thing I can make more allowances for in others is their humanity. I didn't get mixed up with a dominant, I got mixed up with a human. He will faulter and fail on occasion. I can accept that. It is how he conducts himself in light of those times that determines my trust. It is what separates the men from the boys so to speak. I expect the ability to recognize and admit fault, to grow and learn from it, accept consequences without complaint, and to heal and forgive himself. If he can manage these, then he is still someone I trust to manage me.

lovingpet




LaTigresse -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 8:10:31 AM)

But does there come a point, when he refuses to grow and change, when your trust is broken and the man you thought you knew and were submitting to, ceases to exist? 




subtlebutterfly -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 8:18:17 AM)

FR:
I don't have different expectations, either you're in a relationship or you aint.
"your being a schmuck!! Knock it off or we are OVER!" could, in my opinion, just as well be used in a kinky relationship.




LaTigresse -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 8:27:07 AM)

Are you sure?

I ask because I read on here, about s-types that will do ANYthing their M or D asks. About how special this type of relationship is.

For myself, I want the person to be able to call me on my shit. I have no problem admitting when I've been an ass. BUT, based upon what I've seen, not everyone is that way. We see thread after thread, drama after drama, "my Master/Mistress/Dominant did ***insert transgression here***, whateva should I dooooooooooooo?"

So it appears that not ALL power exchange relationships are thought of as relationships first and foremost.




IrishMist -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 8:30:13 AM)

quote:

I am not suggesting anything. I am just curious how submissives and slaves cope with this sort of issue. When you have put so much trust into a person being so much, how do you cope with the knowledge they aren't? How does it affect your submission and ultimately the relationship?

It's a good question; yet, hard for me to answer. My relationship with my late husband was anything but typical, even by the standards that most here hold.

I always was very aware that he had failings; he was human, he made mistakes just like any other person. Sometimes, those mistakes caused me great pain; physical, emotional and mental. But, the thing is...I absolutly adored that man. Because I adored him, those mistakes I was able to forget/forgive and continue on. I understood that because he WAS human, he was going to make mistakes; just like I was going to make mistakes. It was up to both of us to determine if the mistakes made were so major that they could not be overcome. I chose to accept his failings as a human being, a man, and as an owner. They were a part of him; and to accept him meant accepting all of him.

I knew, deep down, that he would never hurt me intentionally to the point of serious damage; either physically, emotionally, or mentally...but I also knew that sometimes, these things would happen unintentionally.
*shrug*
Such is life.

For me, no matter what ever happened between us; walking away was not an option that I was willing to consider. When I gave myself to him; I did so for all time. It was not in me to give up for any reason.




lovingpet -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 8:30:52 AM)

I think that is always a risk. People do not always stay on the same heading they were previously. There then become two basic questions. Why has this change occured? What is my response going to be? The answer to the second is intimately related to the answer to the first. Everyone has a breaking point though. As much as hope springs eternal with me, there comes a point when even I can't muster enough to tough it out, nor perhaps should I. I stick with things much longer than most people I know. If I have come to need to walk away, the chances are good it was a very toxic situation and any trust, respect, or hope I had is long gone. Delineating where that point is remains difficult, however, because there are simply so many potential factors.

I see lack of growth and refusal to change (let's say adapt to head me where I'm going) as eventual death. Intervention is needed to keep things alive. If it doesn't come, the fate is not positive at all. Adaptation and growth are signs of life and health. I would be very concerned if those disappeared within a person I cared about and definitely if that person were leading my life.

lovingpet




LaTigresse -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 8:37:56 AM)

Irish, I always enjoy your posts and insight. Especially regarding your late husband. I do get the feel that it was a relationship that is not similar to many.

I am understanding that for you, because you loved him, and because you had made that commitment, everything else was secondary. Regardless of what that was. And it seems that not only your love, but also you, as a woman and a slave (forgive me if this is not how you identify within that relationship) were strong enough to deal with those weaknesses and continue to submit to him.

I am not sure many could.




LaTigresse -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 8:39:26 AM)

Thank you Lovingpet. That is what was going through my head, while thinking about this.





Aileen1968 -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 8:39:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Are you sure?

I ask because I read on here, about s-types that will do ANYthing their M or D asks. About how special this type of relationship is.

For myself, I want the person to be able to call me on my shit. I have no problem admitting when I've been an ass. BUT, based upon what I've seen, not everyone is that way. We see thread after thread, drama after drama, "my Master/Mistress/Dominant did ***insert transgression here***, whateva should I dooooooooooooo?"

So it appears that not ALL power exchange relationships are thought of as relationships first and foremost.


I fall into the category of being one who does everything within my power to do anything he asks. I'm also one who tells it like it is. If he were to act like an ass I'd call him on it in a heartbeat. If I acted like an ass, he'd call me on it. It is a power exchange relationship, but it encompasses all of the realities of life.




LaTigresse -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 8:40:38 AM)

Aileen, I would have been shocked if it was any other way![;)]




subtlebutterfly -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 8:42:20 AM)

My opinion stands.
But then I'm not the most submissive of the bunch.

If the SO is acting like an ass then you bet I'm going to tell them that they are.
If they drive me crazy then they will sure know n better stay out of my way until I've cooled off.
The "Do it yourself" phrase does not cease to exist just 'cause I ended up in a relationship with oh such a dommely domme.
If there's something impossible to be compromised or worked out n I can't live with it then yes the "knock it off or we're over" phrase does apply.
<insert whatever sound effect ya wanna add here door slam, yelling etc.>

Bottomline: it's a friggin relationship no matter what doodlydoo you add to it, the same rules apply.


oh did I mention communication...?




leadership527 -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 9:08:46 AM)

I don't believe Carol is holding me to any higher standards now that she's my slave, not my wife. She still sees me as "Jeff", a decent but flawed human. I also do not hold her to any higher standard. Anyone who I would put a wedding ring on, I'd put a collar on. My standards for either, though, are pretty high. Carol and I are in this for the long-haul which means we have to be reasonable about our expectations.

And yes, Carol continues to submit to me after I have done things which showed me to be "less than honorable". She also continues to love me.

Carol retains the right to say, "You're being a shmuck." Putting on my collar did not magically remove her opinions and whatever her moods of the moment, I need to know about them.... especially seriously positive or negative ones.

In short, your entire post doesn't really match with our personal reality. Lovingpet's answer pretty closely matches our reality.




Missokyst -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 9:24:42 AM)

This is something I have thought alot of over the years.  I see people all the time that, when first faced with reality will bail out in a heartbeat.. or within however long it takes to get another on the hook.  I see this in nilla and bdsm.  We tend to ignore signs that things are not right.  We live off our own fantasy of what we want to see in someone until the rose is off the bloom.  And people say once trust is broken it is impossible to get things to the way they were.  And yeah.. I agree, but who says they have to be back where it was?

That's why for me I choose to wade in slowly.  I will enter a relationship and enjoy the newness, but I do not "fall in love", or expect permanance from anyone.  It takes me a long while to fall in love, and until then I can walk away without animosity and hopefully good memories of time spent.  If I fall in love it is forever, so I am very careful about my choice.  Love happens for me when the bloom is gone, when the newness fades, when I discover there is a person I like beneath the glamour,and most of all,  when I see the flaws and find they are ok.  Perfection is highly overrated.  I choose men who are much like myself.  Intelligent, hard working, creative, usually with a quirky sense of humor to shake me from my serious mode, with just enough evil to keep me interested. 

Love for me means looking passed the mistakes.  It means hanging in there for the changes.  It means accepting that there will be hurt and heartbreak and survival.  That is why I choose men, not roles.  It is just my fortune that the men I have chosen have been dominant.  And it is my preference in choosing men who are not so locked into a role of dominance that they have to follow some invisible guideline of who is in charge, that allows me to call them a spade a spade without someone accusing me of not acting sub.  I see a lot of talk about "saying things in a respectful manner".  For me, it is more respectful to be honest. 




porcelaine -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 10:41:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I am not suggesting anything. I am just curious how submissives and slaves cope with this sort of issue. When you have put so much trust into a person being so much, how do you cope with the knowledge they aren't? How does it affect your submission and ultimately the relationship?


i have some interesting theories that may not align with others from a slave's perspective. as a woman it is my responsibility to qualify the buyer. i couldn't give ten shits if he calls himself master bad ass. who is this person and why is he worthy of my hand and my submission? not one or the other, both! the woman is the gatekeeper and if you can't capture her you will never earn the slave. we are two facets of one person residing within the same body. our needs are not always parallel but both aspects must be acknowledged and satisfied to some degree.

you bring yourself into a relationship and when things don't turn out as planned or mister perfect reveals he isn't the prince you cajoled yourself into believing he was, who's fault is this? i'm a huge proponent for personal responsibility when things go awry. that implies seeing and accepting a person as they are. not some crazy connotation i've fostered in my head of the man with loads of potential that will grow into something special. it is utter nonsense. i hate sob stories or ridiculous notions that everything rests on one lap. it takes two and anyone with a measure of maturity and self-awareness understands this and owns up to their own crap.

i will not forsake myself for any exchange period. if it isn't a relationship that adds to my person and serves to uplift and bring me joy, why would i want to be entangled with this person? yes people change, and oh yes they will mess up a million times and then some. but i don't bite my tongue either and make like things are kosher or run off venting to friends. if he's being an ass i'll let him know because my feelings are just as important as his. i'm not a secondary passenger, but his partner. couples communicate and as much as i appreciate support groups i'm not dating them. i should be telling him how i feel, not a bunch of strangers.

in all truth i view my pairings as relationships first and foremost. we may choose to implement an exchange as part of our relationship, but we are man and woman always. i have no desire to hoist him upon a perch he will inevitably fall from. it is unrealistic and brings in a host of unnecessary problems for both parties. i'm not super slave either. i will make my share of mistakes and if he's wanting perfection i'm definitely not his type. we need to be real with ourselves and one another or the structure will collapse.

there's another thing people generally forget. there will be break downs in the exchange. what happens then? i would hope that a foundation has been laid beforehand that allows them to find their way back to center and try again. when i accept a yoke i'm taking every nook and cranny of that man. i don't want slivers or bits and pieces but all that encompasses him and i offer him the same. the glue that binds us as one is rooted in things far greater, much deeper, more encompassing than the exchange. it is because of these things, not in spite of them that we last. they serve to keep us cemented when all else fails.

porcelaine




leadership527 -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 10:54:35 AM)

*wild applause*

you go porcelaine!!!




LaTigresse -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 11:14:25 AM)

I agree. That was beautifully written and states my own feelings on the issue very well.




shadowowl -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 11:29:13 AM)

I would expect as much from most females but what about male subs/slaves?  most seem to have much lower standards when it comes to female dommes on average many will let just about anyone with high heels put a collar on them I've noticed.     Maybe they are just perverts looking to get off I don't know but they seem much more relaxed in their standards then female subs or maybe it's just the way I see it.
Maybe because it's often harder for a male to find a female domme that they are willing to overlook more then their female counter parts.

I have very high standards though and since I don't do vanilla relationships at all. ever and never will I ever want to have anything to do with someone that isnt' a Domme I can't compare my standards if i where to date someone that wasn't because none of them will ever live up to it since it's a requirement and a standard for them to be a Domme.  I suppose I'll give up other personality things I reallly like in exchange for that though.




mnottertail -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 12:01:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
i couldn't give ten shits if he calls himself master bad ass.

porcelaine



I have seen some rather vague pictures of you, and I don't believe you got ten shits in you, kiddo...you just ain't carrying around that kinda crap.

master bad ass




porcelaine -> RE: Who are You and where did You come from?!?! (9/15/2009 12:22:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

*wild applause*

you go porcelaine!!!


*curtsy* thankie. *winks*

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I agree. That was beautifully written and states my own feelings on the issue very well.


thank you Ma'am. i may be on the wrong side of the paddle. [;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I have seen some rather vague pictures of you, and I don't believe you got ten shits in you, kiddo...you just ain't carrying around that kinda crap.

master bad ass


egads me thinks you've seen too much! [:D]

porcelaine




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