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Something I found interesting at work - 9/15/2009 9:04:28 PM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		I make a living, such as it is doing surveys. Last fall, as you can well imagine most of my time was spent talking to you folks south of the border about your election. Now it seems we may have one of our own this fall, and you guessed it, the political surveys are starting up again. I spent tonight polling people in Quebec about their political views, and noticed something interesting about US voters as opposed to Canadian voters.

US voters are far more likely to support their party of choice in all policy areas, while Canadian voters will support the policy of party A on topic #1, party B on topic #2, and soon. I had ardent separatists who vote Conservative rather than Bloc (the separatist party) because of their preference for the Conservatives' economic policy. I had people who preferred the Conservatives pick the NDP (openly socialist) as their 2nd choice because they preferred its environmental policy. After work I chatted a bit with some of the other interviewers on that survey and they saw the same thing. Canadian voters seem to reject the party line and to choose their preferred policy regardless of which party espouses it.

Not sure if it means anything,but I found itinteresting.


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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/15/2009 9:45:09 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		IMO it's an artefact of having more than two political parties to choose from. If you just have side A and side B as your choice then they will tend to polarise. If you have five parties (Conservative, Liberal, NDP, Bloc and Green) then policies are more important.

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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/15/2009 9:58:50 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Well, I am not exactly sure if this is the type of response you were looking for, but here goes.

I will not misuse the term 'American' here. the fact is that US citizens are so poorly educated probably accounts for this. I am not even talking about grammar, punctuation, literacy, math skills or anything of that sort, which may be a valid point but is unresponsive. I am talking about the political arena and what is going on. They think the news will always tell them the truth.

At this level of maturity and comrehension, they are more likely to have a herd or gang mentality, and it definitely shows in society. The fact that professional spectator sports do so well here is primas facie evidence of this, if not proof. And even though they get all hooped up in city spirit and all this based on the local sports teams, somehow it seems to logically contradict their idea that we are the only American who matter. We have inherited the hubris of our Masters in that way. Civic pride quickly turns a violent cheek here, because truthfully most people have the mentality I would expect from a ten year old. However they are fully grown physically, and shoot guns and drive cars, things they really shouldn't until they grow up - mentally.

I think that should splain it, in other countries people are less gullible and study the issues more, where as we would rather jump on some sort of bandwagon or something. The land of the free and the home of the brave is no such thing - even on the issue of independent thought. In other words, in some cases here they do not tell you what to do, but they did tell you what to think, which is of course a much more powerful tool with which to manipulate the masses.

T

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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/16/2009 7:38:47 AM   
Irishknight


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Status: offline 		The fact that US citizens have been spoonfed partisan lies and hatred since day 1 of their existence might have something to do with it. "The Dems are for the little guy and the Pubs are for big business," is one of the lies we have been told all of our lives.
From their it gets worse and worse until those who want to make informed choices cannot be heard over the partisan hate speech.

Thats one of the reasons I dropped any party affiliation years ago. Both parties have forgotten who they are supposed to represent but they still tell us that we should vote straight ticket for them on all things. If you vote straight ticket without seeing what the people claim to stand for, then you are a part of the problem in this country, not part of the solution.

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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/16/2009 11:04:07 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		I think you are probably right philo, I have no real experience regarding other countries though, so would you say that voters in the UK are closer to the US model or the Canadian one...they have multiple parties over there as well.

Termy...well I wouldn't be so sure that Americans are less politically educated as a whole than Canadians, I watch the TV coverage from both countries and the political news dominates all coverage in the US...not just during elections but all the time...there's something political every day. Here in Canada politics is far less dominating...there are many days when there is no news on the political front. And professional sports are just as popular here, and just as passionately supported...just look at the hockey riots in Montreal and Edmonton (or was it Calgary...I don't remember).  the bandwagon idea may be something...why do you suppose that is so. Canada and the US have nearly indistinguishable popular cultures...why the bandwagon effect in one but not the other...any ideas?

Irish...Your point is sort of related to philo's. If you had a multi-party system,then it would be more difficult to pass off the partisan stuff. Its easy to say "the Dems suck because they ain't Repubs" but its harder to say the same thing about the Conservatives, the NDP, the Bloc, the Greens, the Socialists, the Marxist-Leninists, etc. When you have multiple opponents you are sort of required to come up with a separate reason why each is wrong, which might be a way of subliminally teaching people to take each of these opponents separately and to have to examine their policies to find the flaws, rather than just knowing they are wrong because they aren't us.



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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/16/2009 12:37:38 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I think you are probably right philo, I have no real experience regarding other countries though, so would you say that voters in the UK are closer to the US model or the Canadian one...they have multiple parties over there as well.



.....really it depends on which part of the UK you are in.  In England you have the main three parties; Labour, Tory and Liberal. You also have UKIP coming up on the rails a bit. The picture varies a bit in Scotland, Wales and Ulster.  You have to add the Scottish Nationalist Party, Plaid Cymru (Welsh Nationalists), and various Loyalist/Nationalist parties in Ulster. Imagine the UK scene as a bit like Canada, but with more than one Quebec.

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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/16/2009 12:50:26 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

but with more than one Quebec.
That has got to be damned inconvenient at times...we have enough trouble with just the one.

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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/16/2009 7:05:03 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

but with more than one Quebec.
That has got to be damned inconvenient at times...we have enough trouble with just the one.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question

.......an interesting start to understanding the complexity.

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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/16/2009 7:11:59 PM   
DomImus


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Status: offline 		I think part of the explanation for this is also due the way the two parties in the US demonize one another. One of the most discouraging things I have seen in American politics for a long time is how often the candidate or party tries to tell you why you should not vote for the opposition instead of explaining why you should vote for this candidate. Negative politics is rampant here and you even see it evidenced in these forums. All too often a poster's response is to point up a corresponding failure on the part of the other side than to address the issue at hand.

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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/16/2009 7:32:28 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I wouldn't say Canada or the UK is savvier about politics because of multi parties...They have more choices and different ways to build coalitions.

In the US most realize the party in power has the initiative in proposing and passing legislation. If would be folly to split party votes for your different issues. Most decide which party supports the most important or the majority of their views then vote with that party. There is no such thing as coalitions in American politics.

That said, at times, there seems to be a tendency to rein in partisan politics by splitting the Congress and Presidency.

Butch


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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/16/2009 7:49:08 PM   
Rhodes85


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Status: offline 		One thing I never really understood was how the bloc can actually think that they will ever be elected to federal office. even if they did get control of quebecs government that doesn't mean they are any more capable of succession. Theres nothing in canadian law that allows for it, and given the fact that having quebec leave the country would cut off all of the eastern provinces from the rest of the country, I can't see the federal government ever allowing it. That being said the other thing I don't understand is that, assuming for the sake of argument that quebec did somehow seperate, how do they expect to support themselves? their economy would go straight into the toilet, they don't have the industry or agriculture to support their population. On their own they would be screwed. What are they going to do? Join the US or rejoin Canada?

I always thought they weren't thinking ahead as to what they would do if they were successful. But given that I don't see quebec ever successfully seperating in the first place I don't think theres much to consider anyway.

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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/16/2009 8:37:57 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question

.......an interesting start to understanding the complexity.
Complexity indeed!

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/16/2009 8:50:35 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

One thing I never really understood was how the bloc can actually think that they will ever be elected to federal office. even if they did get control of quebecs government that doesn't mean they are any more capable of succession. Theres nothing in canadian law that allows for it, and given the fact that having quebec leave the country would cut off all of the eastern provinces from the rest of the country, I can't see the federal government ever allowing it. That being said the other thing I don't understand is that, assuming for the sake of argument that quebec did somehow seperate, how do they expect to support themselves? their economy would go straight into the toilet, they don't have the industry or agriculture to support their population. On their own they would be screwed. What are they going to do? Join the US or rejoin Canada?
The Bloc has no desire to gain Federal office...if it did then it would become the enemy of the Separatists, they exist solely to get the most they possibly can for Quebec. They have matured as a political party and now have a recognizable platform on national issues (rather leftist, but not as much as the NDP, and a lot more pragmatic....myself I would vote for a national party with their platform minus the separation bit). In fact the Bloc has dropped its emphasis on separation and concentrates on the issues of Quebec inside Confederation, its the PQ who remain the true blue separatists.

As far as there being nothing in Canadian law allowing separation, there is nothing preventing it either...it isn't in the Constitution or in any acts of Parliament. A few years back the Supreme Court ruled that separation would indeed be possible, but that it would have to follow a substantial majority vote in a referendum with an unambiguous question, neither the size of the majority nor who would decide if the question were unambiguous were in the decision, so basically all the SC said was...its not against the law. However, because neither of the essential elements of the decision was defined and the notwithstanding clause, the Feds could just ignore any referendum result it didn't like. A provincial referendum wouldn't be binding in any way on the Feds anyway.

As to the realities of separation, you are right, it hasn't really been thought through. Before the last referendum a large percentage of those who supported separation also thought that they would continue to use Canadian money, retain their Canadian citizenship & passports, and vote in Canadian federal elections....go figure that one out...we want to be our own country but we still want to be part of yours.

And if they joined the US can you just picture the reaction to them demanding bilingual services and maintaining Bill 101?


< Message edited by Arpig -- 9/16/2009 8:51:30 PM >

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Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/16/2009 8:53:52 PM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Another aside. The Liberals have stated that they will bring down the Conservative government at the first opportunity, prompting Harper to warn that the Grits would form a coalition with "separatists and socialists".Now it looks like the government will pass its first non-confidence vote because it will be supported by.....you guessed it...the separatists and socialists. 

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


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RE: Something I found interesting at work - 9/16/2009 11:00:57 PM   
Rhodes85


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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Status: offline 		You make alot of good points about the legality of seperation. I just never understood how such a vote would obligate the federal government to allow seperation should it get the majority vote. Theres also an interesting problem of what would happen regarding the military bases and property of the canadian armed forces in quebec and to the soldiers from quebec that are still contractually obligated members of the canadian forces. In such a situation wouldn't that require some form of mutiny in the armed forces? I mean, I assume that those living in quebec or born in quebec would gain citizenship to a seperated quebec, soldiers included. Basically what i'm saying is theres far too many complications in such seperation. As for the bloc not seeking federal office...I wasn't aware of that. I always thought they were persuing federal office as a means of forcing the government to accept a majority vote for seperation. I didn't think the government would accept it any other way. But that has given me alot to think about.

and yes, if the french think they have problems with canadian bilingualism as it is now imagine what the US would be like. far worse i'm sure.

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