RE: Can it really be simple?

RE: Can it really be simple? (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 7:24:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Notice in my suggestion that you do not have to give up any of your current health care insurance. Medicare is already in place, and just needs the fraud and waste cleaned up, and that is why it is point 1. Believe me that is one of my biggest concerns as well, but health care is coming whether people like it or not. Might as well offer suggestions to make it the best possible. quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf So does anyone else have any holes in this? Well, I'm still waiting to hear why we should have any confidence that gov't can run healthcare, or control the purse for healthcare, without it reducing the quality and efficiency I, and hundreds of millions like me, currently enjoy. Further, if we continue to do nothing, we won't have the health care we have now either--it's unsustainable.

Arpig -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 7:48:48 AM)
quote: Again, Arpig - Canada doesn't even have the population that California does, so there is no comparison. A closer example would be China, which among other things forces women to abort babies they want to keep. And they collect organs from living prisoners, as well. Talk about going green... The question is perfectly legitimate. How much government control of our lives do we really need? With a government our size and a population our size I really don't think that having health care decisions in the hands of some freaking all-powerful bureaucrat or presidentially anointed Czar is a good idea at all. The question I was responding to was why we should trust the government to run healthcare, so the population of Canada is irrelevant, it has nothing to do with the question or with the answer I gave. I am not familiar with the quality of the healthcare in China (but by your standards regarding population then there would again be no comparison...China having just a few more people that the good old US of A[;)]). However the abortion issue there has nothing to do with healthcare...it is a population control issue and it only applies to some segments of the population. The same basic thing goes for harvesting organs...that is a human rights issue, not a healthcare one. Surely you don't think that the US government would engage in either of those practices...and if they did want to, what exactly in the present private for-profit system would stop it? As for the czar...well there is no need for one, after all there is a department responsible for health, so it would be administered by that department. I understand that you are opposed to more government in healthcare, but have you any real reasons other than dogma or the might-bes, could-one-days, and what-ifs. So far the only other argument offered is that for some reason the US government can't be trusted to run it without fucking it up completely. And yet, that same government is trusted to run healthcare for the elderly, for veterans, run the military and mind a massive nuclear arsenal...what gives, are they incompetents or not?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 8:20:51 AM)
That is another good point, but if every American with a Social Security number had Medicare available to them, then VA Medical services would not actually be needed. quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi Well I can't speak for anyone else, but after watching the wonderful job they do with VA services, I have little to no confidence in them.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 8:23:48 AM)
This is a strawman Sanity. The OP includes you keeping your own insurance if you wish, not to mention supplemental insurance to boost benefits if you so desire. So if you do not want to be involved in the government run one, just pay for a private insurance. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The question is perfectly legitimate. How much government control of our lives do we really need? With a government our size and a population our size I really don't think that having health care decisions in the hands of some freaking all-powerful bureaucrat or presidentially anointed Czar is a good idea at all.

Sanity -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 9:06:15 AM)
That's kind of like, "...we won't insure illegal aliens." Here is video of Obama promising that his plan is the path to a single payer system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-_SGGcJu_c&feature=player_embedded

tazzygirl -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 9:18:13 AM)
At times, Sanity, you can be pretty dense. 2003... I happen to be a proponent of a single payer health care system. do you honestly think you are saying anything we dont know? The bill mandates that employers cannot drop coverage that they currently have, without penalty, for a cheaper public option... for 5 years. Master Orion wasnt speaking about the public options. He said you could buy the private insurance. Go ahead, No one is stopping you. But, in 5 years, if the public option is cheaper, and most of the employees have signed up for that option, why would employers, especially small business owners, take on the added cost... and rates would go up once that pool drops. I have no doubt we are moving to a public option... option being the operative word. MOST people who have access to preventative care wont need the extended care of hospitals and ER's and OR's or Rehab... and on and on and on. Prevention goes a long way. Part of prevention is access to health care. If a public option gives that, then i am all for it, regardless of the name its given.

thishereboi -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 9:31:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf That is another good point, but if every American with a Social Security number had Medicare available to them, then VA Medical services would not actually be needed. quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi Well I can't speak for anyone else, but after watching the wonderful job they do with VA services, I have little to no confidence in them. No but the same guys who are running the VA into the ground now, would be working on everyone. Now if they can't handle the amount of patients in the current VA system, then why would I think they would do any better with everyone on it?

Sanity -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 9:32:00 AM)
Obama and Frank and most Democrats are for single payer, and I don't have a problem with them admitting it, the problem I have is the way they're slinking around being dishonest about their intentions. There's video of them saying one thing in 2003, 2007, even 2009 and then they read flowery speeches off of their teleprompters to the rest of us that are the exact opposite of what they just said to some union or Acorn meeting somewhere. Put it on the table, discuss it honestly.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 9:36:18 AM)
No it is not, so let me knock the strawman down again. The points are stated exactly as I posted them. Now if you believe the government will say thing, but do another, then it is not exactly as I posted. Now if you could stay on point I would appreciate it. Otherwise you are detracting from the points of conversation I put in the OP. I believe there are at least two other topics that are already discussing your point. See how simple that is? quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity That's kind of like, "...we won't insure illegal aliens." Here is video of Obama promising that his plan is the path to a single payer system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-_SGGcJu_c&feature=player_embedded

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 9:40:24 AM)
Actually that would be incorrect as well. Notice I did not say that everyone would be eligable for VA Medical benefits, I said Medicare. There is a big difference between the two. If you would like to bring up some of the problems with Medicare, then that would be beneficial to tweaking the idea, and making it better. quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi No but the same guys who are running the VA into the ground now, would be working on everyone. Now if they can't handle the amount of patients in the current VA system, then why would I think they would do any better with everyone on it?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 9:44:27 AM)
May I politely ask that you not hijack this topic concerning partisan politics. This topic is about the idea I proposed in the OP, not about what is being proposed by any poltician that I am aware of. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Obama and Frank and most Democrats are for single payer, and I don't have a problem with them admitting it, the problem I have is the way they're slinking around being dishonest about their intentions. There's video of them saying one thing in 2003, 2007, even 2009 and then they read flowery speeches off of their teleprompters to the rest of us that are the exact opposite of what they just said to some union or Acorn meeting somewhere. Put it on the table, discuss it honestly.

Sanity -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 10:16:13 AM)
Your idea is single payer, Orion. That's exactly what I was discussing... and partisan politics will always be a part of these discussions. Maybe there's some magical La La land somewhere in which everyone is perfectly nonpartisan and things happen as if by magic, but that's not where we're at. Not even close. More specifically, your "simple" idea is naive. Medicare is breaking us now, Obama even admits that. And so any efforts at this point towards expanding it to cover everyone is just ludicrous. Fix medicare first, then we can talk. Show us the cuts, show us the new efficiency. Because all I'm hearing right now are dreams.

tazzygirl -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 10:25:09 AM)
Forgive me Master Orion, for diverting once more. Sanity, perhaps a new thread is in order.

Sanity -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 10:35:53 AM)
From Orion's OP: quote: 1) Clean up the fraud and waste in Medicare. For every dollar spent on fraud prevention, it saves $13, 2) Amend the current Medicare laws to include everyone that has a Social Security number, exceptions being for new borns. Which was exactly what I was discussing, Tazzy.

tazzygirl -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 10:37:19 AM)
And us diverting from His proposed opening is a bit confusing, as our discussion can lean away from just Medicare. I started another thread.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 10:41:05 AM)
Now do you have any specifics that could assist with reducing fraud and reducing waste in Medicare? One of the things I offered was to put more money into anti-fraud areas, as a recent study showed that for ever dollar spent, we save a little over 13 dollars. Do you have any specifics on how insurance may be effected? What are your thoughts on the Mayo Clinic model for running a hospital and physician staff? quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Fix medicare first, then we can talk. Show us the cuts, show us the new efficiency. Because all I'm hearing right now are dreams.

Sanity -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 10:53:20 AM)
I don't think that a program that size can be managed efficiently. There are too many halls and corridors.... Its kind of like a giant game of whack-a-mole. The bureaucrats you put in charge of fighting waste will eventually become complacent, and so you'll have to hire someone to police them, and so on. There is too much money to be made off the seemingly bottomless taxpayer pocket, but the biggest problem of all is that there is a bottom to the taxpayer pocket, and like the drunk toward the end of his long career of double-fisted drinking we are fast approaching our national day of reckoning. That's why I say FIRST show me a model of efficiency, because I don't believe that it can be done. And we have to get there soon because we're worse than broke, we're owned by the Chinese.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 2:10:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity I don't think that a program that size can be managed efficiently. There are too many halls and corridors.... That may be true to an extent, but there are multiple dept/sections they use for anti-fraud that has proven effective for the money they are budgeted. This is why I say increase those budgets. quote: Its kind of like a giant game of whack-a-mole. The bureaucrats you put in charge of fighting waste will eventually become complacent, and so you'll have to hire someone to police them, and so on. There is too much money to be made off the seemingly bottomless taxpayer pocket, but the biggest problem of all is that there is a bottom to the taxpayer pocket, and like the drunk toward the end of his long career of double-fisted drinking we are fast approaching our national day of reckoning. Different auditing for Medicare, including an auditing of procedures, on a regular basis by outside agencies, would help quite a bit. The effectiveness of independent audit or a CBO audit does very well for many areas. Medicare is going to need looked at anyway, so might as well put a huge spotlight on it and gleen as much as possible. If it proves to be too inefficient, then private insurance should be able to offer much better alternatives to those that can pay for it. quote: That's why I say FIRST show me a model of efficiency, because I don't believe that it can be done. And we have to get there soon because we're worse than broke, we're owned by the Chinese. I offer the Mayo Clinic model for running a medical facility in a cost efficient manner, but as yet have seen no comments on it. I recommend some research on that. If only medical facilities that run on the Mayo clinic models are authorized for Medicare, then that right there will go a long way to controlling costs.

Arpig -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 3:51:35 PM)
quote: I don't think that a program that size can be managed efficiently. There are too many halls and corridors.... Its kind of like a giant game of whack-a-mole. The bureaucrats you put in charge of fighting waste will eventually become complacent, and so you'll have to hire someone to police them, and so on. There is too much money to be made off the seemingly bottomless taxpayer pocket, but the biggest problem of all is that there is a bottom to the taxpayer pocket, and like the drunk toward the end of his long career of double-fisted drinking we are fast approaching our national day of reckoning. That's why I say FIRST show me a model of efficiency, because I don't believe that it can be done. And we have to get there soon because we're worse than broke, we're owned by the Chinese. You're right Sanity, you guys do have to get there soon...and since you dismiss any suggestions made perhaps you would be so kind as to emlighten us...what do you think should be done. Don't tell us what shouldn't be done, we already know where you stand on that, but its beginning to look like you think nothing should be done...at least you have pooh-poohed every suggestion made. You have yet to propose anything at all, concrete or ephemeral, so I say its time to put up or shutup...what do you propose be done?

Sanity -> RE: Can it really be simple? (9/18/2009 4:06:19 PM)
You haven't been paying attention then. What have I suggested already, Arpig? Myself and several others, on multiple occasions? Tort reform first. Then knock down barriers between states so insurance companies are more free to do business, do away with differing regulations in every single state, and finally - show us the savings in Medicare that Obama keeps trumpeting. Show us the money! Show us the promised savings, then go from there. This business of expanding a program that Obama keeps telling us is busting the budgest prior to cutting out the mountains of waste that we're promised are there is madness. Cut the fat first if he is to expand it. *Can you hear me now?*

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