'F*** tha Police' as Protected Speech

'F*** tha Police' as Protected Speech (Full Version)

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DemonKia -> 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 10:11:21 AM)
I had not realized this: (From: Do You Have the Right to Flip Off a Cop?) "...the middle finger and equivalent swear words are not legally obscene. In fact, courts have consistently ruled that foul language is a constitutionally protected form of expression...." & ""The law is clear that people have the constitutional right to use profanity, especially when it comes to government officials, because that is a form of political speech," Walczak says. "But despite that, we have police officers regularly misapplying the law to punish people who offend them — that's really what it comes down to."" I thought this was interesting & worth sharing here, especially given how regularly someone offers up their opinion that swearing violates TOS for this site, or some similar . . . . .

IrishMist -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 10:18:49 AM)
quote: especially given how regularly someone offers up their opinion that swearing violates TOS for this site Really? Since when. I have been on here for 4 years or so...swearing up a fucking storm...never had a problem with it [:D]

Aylee -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 10:21:23 AM)
Hmmm. I thought that the issues was that "fighting words" were not protected speech. It falls under, "behaviour likely to cause a breech of the peace" I think.

DemonKia -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 10:34:58 AM)
Irish, you might not have noticed it. Doesn't happen often, but every once in a while some (usually rather new) poster will state that belief . . . . There was even a thread, some months ago, where the OP chastised people for swearing (several times, IIRC) -- that was fucking funny . . . . . Aylee, the article seems pretty clear that while cops can & do arrest people for swearing, the cases get thrown out pretty consistently by the courts. Which is frequently followed by a lawsuit against the cop shop & or municipality . . . . . . & it was that judicial reality that caught my attention . . . . I had been under the impression that swearing at cops was verboten . . . . . . . & not that it's likely to change my usually polite approach to law enforcement . . . . .

Aylee -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 10:44:57 AM)
I am guessing that like anything else, it depends on all of the surrounding circumstances.

DemonKia -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 11:32:16 AM)
Well, except for that 'consistently' thing. If it's just swearing or obscene gestures, it sounds like there's no legal grounds for arrest. Yes, if there are other extenuating circumstances that can be charged, then those'll get charged (resisting arrest, assault, provoking a riot, whatever) & I suspect that any swearing charge would get dropped in the pleading process. But the article was very clear that simply swearing or obscene gestures directed at police officers were not sufficient legal grounds to get convictions. Period. That was pretty fascinating. I had not realized that extent of our free speech protections, despite my own lengthy interest in 1st Amendment issues. That's why I posted it. quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee I am guessing that like anything else, it depends on all of the surrounding circumstances.

Arpig -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 12:27:04 PM)
Its protected in the US (no idea about Canada, and no time before work to research it), but its still a pretty good way to get arrested...any cop worth his salt could come up with a good reason. The most likely is simply "resisting arrest". Its a crime to resist an arrest even if the arrest is illegal. And seems to me that anybody cussing out the cops is likely to resist being arrested,so there itgoes. just because its your right doesn't make it a good idea...at the very least there is no way in hell that you are going to get out of that ticket after saying "Fuck you pig"[:D]

DemonKia -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 1:43:58 PM)
(a) Not advocating swearing at law enforcement, I'm interested in having a discussion about the boundaries of free expression issues, especially around such a hot-button topic. & (b), I look forward to hearing your thoughts after you've read the article, cuz it doesn't sound to my ears like you did read the article before posting. . . . But I could be wrong . . . . . shrugs Anyways, I've had a long-term, very strong interest in 1st Amendment issues. Amongst other things, it's my understanding that the US's 1st Amendment is rather unique (in both text & interpretation) & that there really isn't anything like it anywhere else. I am totally open to hearing evidence in whatever direction about that one . . . . . &, yep, this definitely seems like a rather extreme example of the boundary edge of free expression in the US . . . . . It's just as easy to come up with morally appropriate hypotheticals of the legitimate place for swearing at cops where arrest would be unwarranted -- political protests & cops who behave less than admirably spring immediately to mind -- as it is to come up with the obvious miscreant situations where the cops will be fully justified in arresting the offender for other, more egregious, stuff. As I said, fascinating stuff, & I'd specifically like to hear about what similar restrictions, or lack thereof, exist around law enforcement outside of the US .. . . quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Its protected in the US (no idea about Canada, and no time before work to research it), but its still a pretty good way to get arrested...any cop worth his salt could come up with a good reason. The most likely is simply "resisting arrest". Its a crime to resist an arrest even if the arrest is illegal. And seems to me that anybody cussing out the cops is likely to resist being arrested,so there itgoes. just because its your right doesn't make it a good idea...at the very least there is no way in hell that you are going to get out of that ticket after saying "Fuck you pig"[:D]

OrionTheWolf -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 2:07:21 PM)
Yeah you can flip off a cop, or swear at the to an extent. In some states certain profanity used at someone constitutes simple assault. Now you can never swear or flip off a judge, at least 20 odd years ago in Georgia, believe me I know due to a civil proceeding I was in and was charged with contempt of court and shown a jail cell for a while.

DemonKia -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 2:29:39 PM)
Yeah, contempt of court is a whole other thing. The cases described in the article, there was no intent to swear or make obscene gestures at a cop, for instance, but cops happened to end up being in the path of the profane words or gestures . . . . . So, there's that those described were kinda inadvertent swearing-at-cop events . . . . They could also be described as simple profanity, with no other misbehaviors to speak of . . . .

Level -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 5:01:29 PM)
Phew, I thought NWA were reforming or something... Police can usually work "disturbing the peace" charges into swearing situations pretty easily.

DemonKia -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 5:36:16 PM)
NWA: I was workin' my little brain for a short pithy descriptive, the NWA association both kinda worked for it & against it . . . . As for the other part, yeah, if there are no cameras or reliable witnesses. My hypothetical political protest example is likely to have both . . . . That makes it tough for the cops to 'creatively charge' . . . . . & the police, in the 'wealthy' 'industrialized' world, are getting less & less leeway about taking their word for things versus having a cam to help keep them honest. & I wanna be clear here: I'm a huge fan of competent law-enforcement when they're reasonably applying relatively rational laws. Outside of that parameter, well, my main concern is that behaviors outside of those boundaries undercuts & renders less effective the enforcement of our formal social agreements . .. In other words, when cops sic baby rapers & murderers & that ilk, yay!!! & I resent relatively innocuous behaviors (prostitution & the 'war on politically incorrect vegetables' are glaring examples) wasting the time & energy of law enforcement away from that more important work. One of the lessons I take from things like the various women getting released from their basement / storage shed / whatever long-term 'sex slave' prisons is that the cops have better things to do than busting some hooker & / or john for some consensual adult activity or some stoner for having a joint . . . . . . & clearly, they're still too distracted by all that extraneous stuff . . . . . (Oh, wait, did I also say I have a long-term interest in most everything criminology / penology / LE / etc . . . . . & the article in the OP so intersected some major interests of mine . . . . .) quote: ORIGINAL: Level Phew, I thought NWA were reforming or something... Police can usually work "disturbing the peace" charges into swearing situations pretty easily.

Level -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 5:46:55 PM)
Kia, you did good with the NWA lead-in; I actually like some of their songs lol. I agree 100% with what you said about hooking, and those darn politcally incorrect vegetables [:D]

shannie -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 5:52:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Its protected in the US (no idea about Canada, and no time before work to research it), but its still a pretty good way to get arrested...any cop worth his salt could come up with a good reason. The most likely is simply "resisting arrest". Its a crime to resist an arrest even if the arrest is illegal. Yes, but if you yell it to random cops (who weren't trying to arrest you), then how it could it be "resisting arrest?" :)

DavanKael -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 6:41:51 PM)
This reminds me of a time long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away (Jacksonville, NC near Camp LeJeune) when my ex- and I had attended a Marine Corps Ball (Notorious for massive drunkenness) and my ex-'s CO told me to take him home because he got all happy drunk and was running around acting like a goober (As was everyone else, lol, including the CO). So, I stuffed said drunk Marine into the car, him in full dress blues, mind you (It was the Ball and, thus formal, afterall) and as I'm driving, he gets the fabulous idea to roll down the window, flip the bird to, and scream "Fuck you, fuck you all" happily at the rows of cops that were lining the main throughfare in town. How the hell we didn't get pulled over, I'll never know. I have some law enforcement folk in my family. Some would be mellow enough to let something like the utterances Kia mentioned go, others not so much. Former friend who was a DC cop, if someone said 'fuck the police' to him, he would have gleefully punched them, choked them out, or some other serious miscarriage of authority, then charged them with assault or some such. Because we can do it, I'm not so sure it's a good idea (Even if it's exactly what we want to say). Davan

Rhodes85 -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 7:03:52 PM)
'"...the middle finger and equivalent swear words are not legally obscene. In fact, courts have consistently ruled that foul language is a constitutionally protected form of expression...." uhh...no. Contrary to popular belief there are many many things that are NOT protected by freedom of speech as well as a number of loopholes in the CDA as well, but I won't get into that here. In short, don't assume you are protected for saying anything.... and more importantly, flipping off a cop will likely get you arrested, and in some places severely beaten.

DemonKia -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 8:00:47 PM)
Huh. weighs arguments Yeah, not the biggest fan of mainstream media, here, but on the evidence presented, I'm gonna go with Time being the more authoritative source than the random internet guy who presents no evidence whatsoever . . . . Sorry . . . shrugs I suspect that one of the things at works here is the 'evolving standards of conduct' . . . . For instance, it used to be just dandy for law enforcement to randomly harass various minorities. Now it's mostly not okay, & getting less so every day . . . . A similar process is going on with regard to things like this profanity & obscene gesture issue . . . . It's funny to hear so many tales of out-of-control cops cuz that's sorta the anti-thesis of what cops are supposed to be, ideally speaking . . . . . I suspect it squicks plenty of cops to hear this kinda stuff, too . . . . . quote: ORIGINAL: Rhodes85 '"...the middle finger and equivalent swear words are not legally obscene. In fact, courts have consistently ruled that foul language is a constitutionally protected form of expression...." uhh...no. Contrary to popular belief there are many many things that are NOT protected by freedom of speech as well as a number of loopholes in the CDA as well, but I won't get into that here. In short, don't assume you are protected for saying anything.... and more importantly, flipping off a cop will likely get you arrested, and in some places severely beaten.

Arpig -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 9:28:18 PM)
quote: Yes, but if you yell it to random cops (who weren't trying to arrest you), then how it could it be "resisting arrest?" :) They could attempt to arrest you for disturbing the peace,knowing full well it willgo nowhere,and hope you resist arrest,in which case they get to smack you around a bit and add resisting to the charges...either way you are going to spend the night (or at least a few hours) in jail and have to pay a lawyer....probably not worth it in the end.

stella41b -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 10:44:08 PM)
I'm fairly sure that here in the UK that you wouldn't get away with it and you would probably either be charged with resisting arrest, threatening or abusive behaviour, or very likely to have an 'accident' whilst 'helping the police with their enquiries' in a police station.

DemonKia -> RE: 'F** tha Police' as Protected Speech* (9/16/2009 11:00:33 PM)
Ya know, I suspect that one factor that plays into it is law enforcement's informal evaluation of the probability of the suspect (or their heirs) hiring lawyers . . . . It's funny how rich people fuck up legally plenty, but rarely do they get assaulted by law enforcement in that good-ol'-boy way . . . . . . .

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