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RE: Tactful - 9/17/2009 5:40:30 AM   
lovingpet


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This whole matter goes well beyond relationships. I've learned that insight is not what most people want. Most people want support in what they are already doing. They want pats, sympathies, and agreement with whatever screwed up reasoning they come up with in their heads for the disaster that occurs. If I cannot give the former in good conscience and without animosity for doing so, I absolutely will not give the latter. When it comes to real people and relationships (as in people I actually face in the flesh on an ongoing basis), I don't offer either very much. I am very keen in knowing who will really hear me. That is very rare and only happens when I have gained the status of having my opinion carry weight.

One specific example comes leaping to mind as when I learned to keep my fool mouth shut about most things. It isn't something I'll get into here in any detail. People were hurting deeply, angry, and wanted to hate so much that speaking the simple truth that we ourselves (not they, I included myself as the blame should have been placed) were each directly responsible for being in that positon. The venom from some that were privvy to that conversation carries on to this day. This had nothing to do with relationship. It was a tragedy that occured that I viewed, and still do, as completely preventable. No one wanted to hear it. No one to this day, almost a decade later, wants to hear it. I just sit in silent witness.

I can't save someone from themselves. I can't save them from their own narrowness. I can't force upon them another point of view, a clue, or forethought. I have my thoughts and if anyone cares to ask, I will give them (in such dose as I think is worthwhile). I will be there to help pick up the pieces when no matter what, the disaster occurs. I am not willing to indulge in their drama or pity party, but I am willing to be the place they can go to heal. There is no way around it. Adults demand to be treated like such when they are acting like children and wish to be coddled as children when it all goes wrong. This seems harsh, but I've been there, done that with too many people in all kinds of situations. I won't do it. I will treat you like an adult before, during, and after. I can be kind while I am cruel. I am only truly cruel when I am kind when it is inappropriate. That does no one any favors.

lovingpet


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RE: Tactful - 9/17/2009 6:52:58 AM   
RavenMuse


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I am sure that one of the reasons IB can quite identify with the frustration is that like Myself He is someone many goto for advice (Which I never mind, so long as that person is trying to sort out their own shit. You can't help someone who won't help themself) and also, whilst Dominant He has the compasion to feel for someone when He sees them walking into a situation blindly unaware of facts that they would probably act on if they KNEW them, but there is no way to let them know the facts as the act of telling them will make those facts look like something else.

As said, I didn't post looking for solutions, there are none. It is about the frustration inherent in such situation BECAUSE there is no solution.

However there are many situations where help is needed, help is sought and help is effective. Which is why the likes of IB, Myself and several of My Friends and aquaintences continue to put in the effort with those who reach out to us. Many times they bring their own answers, they only need a non-judgemental wall to bounce that uncomfortable ball off. It just means as a consequence that the frustration in situations like those I mentioned is felt all the more acutely.


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RE: Tactful - 9/17/2009 7:03:21 AM   
IronBear


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Working pro bono is such a wonderful asset at times is it not? I know competent people who will not lift a finger to help someone in danger of becoming one of the dead. I do pity such people. 

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RE: Tactful - 9/17/2009 7:17:11 AM   
RavenMuse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Working pro bono is such a wonderful asset at times is it not? I know competent people who will not lift a finger to help someone in danger of becoming one of the dead. I do pity such people. 


Meh I was bored to hell when the courses where going through all the Carl Rogers crud, and I rate the gestalt therapy approach much higher... but the various training has helped a fair few folks over the years.... Don't have the patience with the reasons many seek counselling so would never go pro, but a few of the smiles have been payment enough to last lifetimes.

I'd rather deal with the effort and sometimes frustration that comes from actually caring rather than be a zombie!


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This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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RE: Tactful - 9/17/2009 7:23:31 AM   
IronBear


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Understandable. That is the advantage of working as both a counsellor and psych-therapist.  However the things which usually upset my nights come because I am on a suicide call out list for both suicides and attempted suicides. Just something that as a Priest i feel compelled to be involved in where I can. it has it's own rewards as you say, sometimes a smile after is worth a truck load of spondoolicks. 

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RE: Tactful - 9/17/2009 7:25:38 AM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

Yea keep your mouth shut.  It is none of your biz!  Freaking busy bodies!  If she is over 18 I am sure she can look out for herself.  Sometimes life is about learning HARD lessons.


I am sure that is exactly the attitude the cheats and predators have too, wouldn't want anyone spoiling their fun would We now. There are enough HARD lessons out there without turning a blind eye if We could help someone We care about avoid walking into a car crash.


Well the Bum LOVES cheats and predators.

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RE: Tactful - 9/17/2009 7:27:14 AM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Of course I can assume... leopards don't change their spots... the car crash ALWAYS arrives, it is simply a question of WHEN.

However, If you actually READ it is about there being no point in acting on the knowledge and the frustration of not being able to help them avoid it, not about advocating 'involving' Yourself!



Well dont say anything after the fact either. Because then they will be mad at you for NOT telling them. Happens all the time when you know a friends spouse is cheating on them. So you're damned if you do and damned if ya dont.

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RE: Tactful - 9/17/2009 7:47:32 AM   
RavenMuse


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Not going to happen, if they realise there was people around who knew and could have warned them if the opportunity had been there then maybe they will look for such next time there are looking at question marks and wondering, they maybe reach out and find it.... the chance of them doing that is worth the possibility of them being pissed at Me..... people being pissed at Me isn't anything that overly worry's Me.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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RE: Tactful - 9/17/2009 10:27:07 AM   
DesFIP


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Just because you didn't get along well with someone doesn't mean she won't exhibit different behaviors in a new relationship where she feels more fulfilled.

About all you can say is that the two of you had a classic trainwreck relationship and you hope they don't have the same problems you did. Then, if they want to know more, they can ask.

You can also use this in the other situations you mentioned. "I know his ex had a very bad time with him, was very unhappy". If they ask what the problems were, you answer. If they don't ask then they don't want to know.

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RE: Tactful - 9/17/2009 10:58:30 AM   
allthatjaz


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.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 9/17/2009 11:00:01 AM >


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RE: Tactful - 9/17/2009 3:21:36 PM   
RavenMuse


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Des, I have the advantage here in that I am writing with 20/20 hindsight on three of those four.... There is no maybe, I knew the trainwreck was on its way and sooner or later it did... boom... boom... boom!

Leopards don't change their spots, the pattern was there, I knew where it was going and... gosh... that's where it went.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Tactful - 9/17/2009 6:36:33 PM   
Roselaure


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I am in a similar situation myself with my family.  The fiery car crash is coming, the two cars hurtling towards each other in the black Midwestern night.  My opinion was actually asked for and I gave it, clearly and without equivocation, but it was not heeded.  Now I am watching and waiting for it to happen, which it inevitably will.  I don't know when I have ever felt so frustrated, but here I am, willing to help sweep up the debris.  Although I do think the 2X4 idea has merit.



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RE: Tactful - 9/18/2009 3:38:21 AM   
RavenMuse


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Yep when it is someone that you don't care about, it isn't frustrating. It is gone with a shrug and a "Nothing I can do there"..... when it is someone you have a degree of care for then .... so long as the care is there, so is the frustration... the care pulling You to find a solution to avoid the hurt You know is coming, but reality knowing there is no solution... frustration.

*Sends Rose a hug*


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Tactful - 9/18/2009 3:56:10 AM   
LaTigresse


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Using fast reply........

Funny to read this subject after the night and week I've had.

I learned a long time ago, the hard way, that most people DO NOT WANT to hear what I have to say about their personal issue, regardless my motive or how carefully I word it. I made a decision that unless it means someone, I care about, is going to be put in serious danger, I am better off keeping my big mouth SHUT.

I've told family and friends, over and over "If you want my opinion A. you are probably going to have to ask for it, and B. ask for it, knowing I am going to be totally honest".

Very few end up asking. Even if they do ask my opinion and/or advice, quite often they don't listen. They simply continue on as they would have anyway, end up in the fiery crash and then, are so embarassed that what I warned, came to pass, it puts a strain on the relationship. I am at that place with my adult son at the moment. He is pouting because I am right and he knows it, but is too embarrassed to face me and admit it. With most people, it is better to let them go on about their way, and then let them come to you after the fact. Something I have found, especially with my daughter, she will often say something like "You already knew it was a stupid mistake didn't you?" To which my reply is often a wry look and she will say "Mom, why didn't you say anything?" And I will say "Would you have listened?' Her reply is almost always "No, probably not."

The reason being, most people will take the path of least resistance, thinking that is the best path. The reality is that, the path of least resistance, is usually easier because it is so by nature of learned behaviour. Unfortunately that learned behaviour is often a self destructive one. Repeating the same mistakes over and over.

The smart/lucky ones, survive their mistakes and learn from them. The rest, depending upon the mistakes, either die by them, or continue to fuck up, and never understand their own culpability. They never learn to take responsibility for themselves.

Now, back to why it is a pertinent subject for me today. Today, I am going to go against my traditional, mouth shut, way of dealing with stupidity. Not for myself, but because I feel it is my duty to the people that work for me. I work for a very small company with a young and inexperienced owner. He is a great guy, a dear friend actually, but also rather spoilt. He pretty much had this company handed to him on a silver platter. Perhaps not solid silver, but it definitely had a healthy plating of pure sterling. Since 2003 I have watched him slowly run it into the ground, all while making excuses why he was not able to uphold his end of the bargain.......sales. Because of his weaknesses, we have slowly watched employee benefits dwindle. Gone the company paid gym memberships. Gone the big fun Xmas parties. Then gone the small intimate, less expensive Xmas parties, gone the annual raises. Only one, very insulting one in 6 years. We accepted that IF instead of a pay increase, he would put the money back into purchasing, much needed new equipment. He hasn't. Now, after a trip with our consulting firm, the new excuse/fix.......take away vacation and instead only a mandatory time off over the 4th of July and the week between Xmas and NewYears, because business is slow anyway.

Now I am not going to go into the very lame reasoning behind the latest change, but suffice to say it is because of HIS excuse book for not being able to motivate himself to do his job. Since 2003 there have been a dozen excuses to the consultant, and us, why he cannot do sales. Until now, it mattered less. But now he is penalizing company employees for his weaknesses. The same toxic bullshit that is destroying corporate america.

I have two choices, I can leave, take a better paying job and walk away with a heavy heart and bad for the people that will not find it so easy to do so. OR, I can do the very scary, difficult, painful thing and try to make a change.

Tactful is most definitely not my strong point. To complicate things, the owner is easily upset over confrontation. Somehow, someway, for the sake of the people I was put in charge of, I have to find a tactful way to tell him to pull his head out of his ass, take responsibility for his own shit and quit treating his employees like expendable objects.

It ain't gonna be easy.

I may be working for a new company next week.

But my gut tells me I have to do everything possible to have a clean concious. I just can't take the easy road this time.

But if I see my friend or sibling, making a stupid choice, chances are I will still keep my mouth shut. Unless, like this time, it affects others I agree to take responsibility for.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Tactful - 9/18/2009 4:07:33 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

But my gut tells me I have to do everything possible to have a clean concious. I just can't take the easy road this time.
LeeAnn.. I get the gut feeling that this boob has been handled with kid gloves all along. In a last ditch effort, perhaps the gloves need to come off? It sounds as if you have nothing to lose.

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RE: Tactful - 9/18/2009 4:20:23 AM   
LaTigresse


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Holly, to be honest and own my own failings, it's not that he has been handled with kid gloves. It's more a case of again, taking the easy route. Don't rock the boat. Leave it alone. Or "why bother?"

Our little company has been like a family. Disfunctional, often afraid to hurt one another.......same sort of shit in many families. The problem is, his solutions to fixing the problems caused by his weaknesses, are beginning to not only penalize the "family" but also will destroy the company. It is turning from a team work environment into a sad little dictatorship with the peons "give a damn" almost broken. I know that, ultimately, it's not what he wants. He simply cannot see the forest for the trees. Wacking a few diseased trees to open up his line of vision is going to be painful, cause much pouting and foot stomping, no small amount of lip pursing and yelling, and maybe even some threats. But I seriously feel I need to do this. It is rare I lose sleep. I could count on one hand, the number of times I have lost sleep over anything work related, but last night was a mofo.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Tactful - 9/18/2009 4:29:15 AM   
RavenMuse


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LaT... I wanna check Your birth certificate.... I wasn't told I had a sibling that was separated at birth!

That last line, I could have written Myself except instead of 'friend or sibling' I'd have put "People I care about"... anyone else, if they don't wanna know then don't raise the issue around Me. I've been in a similar situation work wise, tearing strips off the Owners son because his actions where aversely effecting the people under Me. That time it didn't cost Me My job, but it could have done. However he needed to stop what he was doing as he was making it impossible to work there.

Faced with the choice You have I think I'd come to the same decision. Try to make a change and if that doesn't work... Take plan B but with the knowledge that You tried.

Good luck.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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RE: Tactful - 9/18/2009 4:44:12 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Holly, to be honest and own my own failings, it's not that he has been handled with kid gloves. It's more a case of again, taking the easy route. Don't rock the boat. Leave it alone. Or "why bother?"

Our little company has been like a family. Disfunctional, often afraid to hurt one another.......same sort of shit in many families. The problem is, his solutions to fixing the problems caused by his weaknesses, are beginning to not only penalize the "family" but also will destroy the company. It is turning from a team work environment into a sad little dictatorship with the peons "give a damn" almost broken. I know that, ultimately, it's not what he wants. He simply cannot see the forest for the trees. Wacking a few diseased trees to open up his line of vision is going to be painful, cause much pouting and foot stomping, no small amount of lip pursing and yelling, and maybe even some threats. But I seriously feel I need to do this. It is rare I lose sleep. I could count on one hand, the number of times I have lost sleep over anything work related, but last night was a mofo.
Look at this from a "family" point of view then, it may help. Lets say you are going to the home of one of your kids for a holiday, and the kid is screwing up his/her life in a major way, not just hurting him/her self, but the rest of you as well. You are the Mom/Grandma of the group (the leader, so to speak). Do you take on this situation by yourself, pulling the kid into the den and having a quiet, whispered talk? Or...do you confront him as a whole? The entire group facing him at the same time. It is easy for Jr to blow off your criticism if you confront alone (ie "Mom is having a bad day and picking on me" etc) but a group confrontation is much harder to deny. It is your last ditch effort to try and save things. And is it really fair to exclude the aunts/uncles/siblings et al, that are also part of the family?

Since the outcome of the confrontation effects all, perhaps all should be in on it? You really should consider including everyone, Sweetie. It is a HUGE responsibility to be the one voice trying to save a sinking ship. In the future you might look back in retrospect and ask yourself, "Why didn't I say...." or "Maybe if I had..." Do you really want to do this to yourself?  The outcome effects all, so they need their voices heard.

Take this responsibility from yourself and schedule a group meeting.

< Message edited by sirsholly -- 9/18/2009 5:06:01 AM >


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RE: Tactful - 9/18/2009 4:48:38 AM   
LaTigresse


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I forget to mention. I conduct a morning "strategy" meeting every morning at 8am that the entire company is required to attend. That is when I am giving the man the "come to jesus". It does involve everyone and everyone should be included, even though the boss would certainly prefer me to do it in private I am sure.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Tactful - 9/18/2009 4:56:54 AM   
sirsholly


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oh... so what i just suggested, you have already implemented?

I wasted all that perfectly good babble


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