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The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/16/2009 9:51:12 PM   
Chimortis


Posts: 39
Joined: 8/29/2009
From: Morgantown, WV
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I've always been one to pick writing in grammatically proper sentences over specific protocols which are common in terms of capitalization and such in the context of the internet BDSM scene. I probably qualify as a "grammar nazi." One of the first ways that someone can judge another person on the internet, besides by any pictures they may post, is by way of their spelling, grammar, and ability to articulate a thought coherently. Indeed, that is how I judge people who contact me on the internet, both in the context of the BDSM scene, as well as within professional and other circles which are completely unrelated.

Common protocols, however, go against proper English grammar.

So I'm curious - what are your thoughts on this topic? Is such protocol somehow important to you? If so, why? If you do adhere to such protocols, what is your reason for doing so as versus simply writing using proper grammar?

Hope to get some interesting, thought-provoking, and constructing comments on this topic.
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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/16/2009 10:10:08 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
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Oddly enough given that my start was online, I really have no use for such things. Granted, I'm not a protocol person anyway. But even so, all that slash crap was just too much for me. And while it doesn't bother me that others do it, capitalizing every reference to myself just feels a tad pretentious. Carol respects me. Some folks here do too. But I have better ways to know that than whether they hit the shift key.

To each their own, of course, but it's not for me.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Chimortis)
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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/16/2009 10:18:15 PM   
worthlesstrash


Posts: 114
Joined: 9/28/2008
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While my profile is written more in the third person, writing that way in posts and things like that would drive me nuts. I only did it there to sort of get things into my head the way he wanted them, not for the benefit of any other person.
I don't put people down for what they prefer to do, it's just not for me on a day to day basis.


_____________________________

~anne

This girl is a slave, but she is also a woman full of love, life, and who has a ton of interests.
Don't judge a book by it's name, judge it by it's content..

His since 10/06/2006
SLRN 166-164-858

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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/16/2009 10:33:08 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
I was brought up to enjoy and indeed love the correct use of English even to the point where many of my mannerisms as someone pointed out a couple of years ago you'd likely hear in in England at a Polo meeting. If anyone had read some of the Victorian and even Edwardian Novels you'll understand my love for the flowery speech of that period. I tend to tone it down when posting here to the point I can and have been on occasions down right terse. I have been accused by some, over time here, of talking down to people where as many of the old hands know that I do not do this and am just being myself. Occasionally I allow myself to slip into Australian slang and pathos for fun too. I simply refuse to change because I will continue to be me and will not allow neither people nor convention to force me to drop my standards which are just fine for many but not for me. 

_____________________________

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Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/16/2009 11:47:52 PM   
lovingpet


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Most subgroups have some sort of means of taking the norms of the society at large and manipulating them somehow to help form a self identity. In this regard, I have no problem with grammatical protocol within the "community". It is nothing new.

My issue has more to do with the protocol taking over as the means of segregating those that are better than in any number of ways. There are those that are more "true" because they religiously use the protocol in its entirety. There are others that are better because they pick and choose which parts they follow and which they snub. Still others get their self-righteousness by refusing it all and being above such foolishness. At that point, it is a divisive construct and no longer serves the purpose for which it was created.

I don't use it, for the most part (I lapse occasionally), simply because I don't care for it and it doesn't feel natural to me. I tend to regard it with caution, however, due to how it has come to be used by many. As far as it reflecting poorly on people's grasp of the language, I have many other ways of evaluating that. I can overlook what is clearly protocol based. What I can't do, is use superficial means to determine the intellect, character, or worth of another. I have taught far too many gifted students with serious disabilities such as dyslexia to ever believe that spelling, grammar, and punctuation were the hallmarks of great mental ability. In fact, closer study reveals many great minds possessed absolutely none of these much prized skills. I do not accept laziness in writing and can tell the difference, but I do not fault a person for having a mind too full of ideas to have room for the formalities.

Good topic!

lovingpet

< Message edited by lovingpet -- 9/16/2009 11:48:40 PM >

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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 2:08:10 AM   
IronBear


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Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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Possibly the one thing in messages and forums, I have an issue with and it really alloys the hell out of me, is the use of Text TXT) Talk. If someone can't take the time to write a message or post in English (forget both grammar and spelling for not everyone has a good understanding with English being a second or even a third language), I will not bother to deal with them. I will once only politely ask that they write in English and not use Text Talk and if that doesn't work, I ignore them. Some may find this rude or elitist but by the same token, there are no rules of manners, protocol and etiquette which says I have to allow some one to bombard me with messages which I find oft intelligible and certainly annoying. those who do after being asked politely not to, are rude, ignorant and bad mannered in my opinion. 

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 3:37:33 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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It's funny that you brought this up.  Just yesterday, I answered a private email from a friend on  the matter.  I'm going to post here what I wrote to him in response.

quote:


I'm actually glad you didn't start a thread on the process. Nine times out of ten, those tend to be nothing more than opportunities for people to complain about the way others handle their affairs. My usual response to that is that I have no need for other folks to dictate how I handle My own writing style. LOL.

My purpose in using it has actually grown over the years. The primary idea behind it is, in a dynamic, it can help some achieve a better submissive mindset. It does take something of a shift in thinking to change those capitals around and it can be a very effective tool in doing that. In My opinion, that should always be one of the underlying purposes of having rituals and protocols in the first place. It helps to keep the roles very clear.

One of the first things that I'll ask people who come around with the issue that their relationship has seemed to slip more to a vanilla pairing than a D/s dynamic, is what kind of rituals and protocols that they have in place. In almost every case, the response is that there aren't any. There's no affirmation of roles. This is where some folks drift from the mindset of spark or inspiration. Complacency sets in and they drift away from the power structure. That's probably a bit more than you're asking, so I'll move along.

Very specifically in My dynamic with clip, I never want there to be a doubt that I own his submission. Having him write in a specific style helps with that. It allows him to get in touch with that part of himself no matter what he is doing. It's one of the easiest training tools to work with something that doesn't come easily, but is just a little reminder of his place with Me.

The question that I usually get asked at this point is, even if that makes sense on clip's end, why do I do the same? The answer for that is common sense to Me. If I tell him that something is important in the dynamic, doesn't it have to be important to Me as well? The truth of the matter is no protocol or ritual can have the same effect if only one person participates. There should always be a response. Think of it the same you would if you had a relationship where you would always tell the woman you loved how you felt about her, but she did nothing in return. Not even a smile to acknowledge how you felt. Most people wouldn't have a very good feeling about that and eventually, it would have a negative effect.

So, that answers the part about within the dynamic. Why do I do it with others? One of the reasons is that, in certain cases, in can have the same positive effects. It helps them to change their thinking habits and feel more in touch with their submission inside of them. That can help them stay in tune with who they are even if they don't have someone to serve just now. It can be a good feeling for them and I like being a part of that.

What will drive Me nuts is when people will get on the boards and start complaining about how incorrect caps or third person speech bothers them in some way. We're here on this site because we have a difference in us that most of the world can't accept us in the way we express ourselves. Are we really going to sit here and say even amongst our own, it's not acceptable? I don't want to see that happening. The fact that there is a few of us on the boards who are willing to say that people can bitch about it all they want and we're going to do it anyway helps those who feel they are being shut down by the capitals police.

Of course, there's always the standard fall back reason. I'm the one in charge around here and it's done because I say so. While I may have other contributing factors, that really is the only one that I ever need.



Also a piece that I've written on the subject on a thread with the same theme.  (There are tons of them for anyone who is interested in using the search function.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I almost kind of laugh when this topic comes up anymore.  Everybody familiar with Me on these boards knows I'm one of the biggest offenders on the cap thing.  I sit back and read the posts from folks who say they skip over those of us in the minority who do the protocol capping, and even worse <gasp> instruct our submissives to do it.  That proper English horse gets pretty high as some (not all) look down their noses at us protocol cappers.

Yet, darn near every time the subject comes up, I go back and look at those who say they skip over posts where Dominants cap themselves, and nine times out of ten it's someone who has said on the boards or written a private message to say they respected or admired something I wrote.  This leads Me to believe that the whole big deal about that huge capital "M" issue, isn't really that big of a deal at all.  Like undergroundsea said, it's more about the content than the capitalization. 

As to the OP, the answer is simple.  Do what your Dominant has instructed you to do.  Lacking that instruction, express yourself in the way that best fits you.  If that's proper English caps, protocol caps for the D and lowercase for you, third person speak, or any other way you want to write that conveys the message that's inside of you.  At the end of the day, that's usually more important than what other people think anyway.

From the desk of the imperfect, protocol capping Lady Pact.



Personally, I don't have much concern about how people view Me within the context of the "internet BDSM" scene.  If we were talking about something that honestly effected Me, My life, or My situation with My poly family, I might say something else.  Until then, I'm going to continue doing things the way they work for Me.  I encourage others to do the same.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 7:38:38 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

As far as it reflecting poorly on people's grasp of the language, I have many other ways of evaluating that. I can overlook what is clearly protocol based. What I can't do, is use superficial means to determine the intellect, character, or worth of another. I have taught far too many gifted students with serious disabilities such as dyslexia to ever believe that spelling, grammar, and punctuation were the hallmarks of great mental ability. In fact, closer study reveals many great minds possessed absolutely none of these much prized skills. I do not accept laziness in writing and can tell the difference, but I do not fault a person for having a mind too full of ideas to have room for the formalities.

Good topic!

lovingpet


Well said lovingpet.
Lets not forget that people like Einstein, Winston Churchill and Hans Christian Anderson all had dyslexia.
Both Steve and myself are diagnosed dyslexics and we both spent our school years battling with dissatisfied English teachers who insisted we learn the 'law of apostrophes' and the correct spelling and grammar. We were not allowed to shine at school and yet
we have both gone on to excel in certain things, we can both hold confident and intelligent debate and we have both learnt through life experiences to ignore those who ridicule our condition.

So long as its possible to read what has been written, then I don't see a problem.


_____________________________

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Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 9:22:21 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline
I tend not to care.

I tend to let a PERSON show me what kind of PERSON they are.

I am a High School Drop Out.
I never did well in English or in Social Studies.
I have a horrible habit of Capatilizing Random words.
I do not use spell check.
I type with three fingers & a thumb at the space bar (At 55wpm I'll have you know)
I type like I talk and rarely censor myself unless I feel I am in bad taste even by my own standards.

All these things together I sometimes have poorly spelled words or use words I don't actually know how to spell. I will often not use Punctuation correctly and feel that using paragraphs and periods sould be good enough.

What I am saying should be more important than HOW it is being said or in this matter typed.

I am not a moron. I can get the idea of what someone is trying to say with or without correct grammar or spelling.

That is the Point of forums such as this isn't it? The Opinions of others being shared? Why should someone who has a great head for idea on their shoulder be chastized because the comma and the period aren't where they are supposed to be?

Slashy speak (W/we, Y/you, T/they, U/us) is annoying but I don't chastize those who use it beacuse to them it is a matter of them trying to be respectful to anyone they may be talking to. Some people eat that shit up. I know a few Dom's that get all pissy if you don't Cap their Nickname. I know Some subs who get pissed if you Lowercase their nicks. Why? What is the Point?

I have people I call friend who still spell my name Steele. There is no "E" at the end of my nick, I notice it every time, but I don't try to correct them anymore because it is obvious that it isn't as important to them as it is to me, so why bother? I know how to spell my own name.

People who use Text Speach sued as U or UR way 2 Kewl, just annoy the hell out of me. Not because it's wrong or not gramatically correct, but because it makes them sound retarded and look like maybe Mom and Dad let them eat Paint Chips or lick the walls to go to sleep. I still don't chastize them for it, at least not outside of thread that is asking for my opinion on the matter, I just don't interact with them. If they send me a Message on the other side I usually answer whatever question they asked and then Block them as I don't have the patience for someone who can't use full words cause they need to save precious time.

However is someone is going to judge me on my use of They're, There, and Their and when they are used correctly...... Eat a Dick. I don't give a shit and with context you figured out which one I should have used I just used the wrong one. Get off your fucking High Horse and be HUMAN for a moment and realize that was I was saying is usually WAY more important than HOW I chose the words in which to say it.

Steel

_____________________________

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Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 9:30:33 AM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
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As a fellow lover of the language, I do wince when I see poorly written or misspelled words. I don't think it is unfair to expect people to proofread their posts, or to understand how to express themselves clearly.

And as many did, I began online, and adopted the common protocols of Capitalisation and so forth. Over time, however, I have decided that it is a bit contrived, and doesn't reflect my natural style of writing- I once absent-mindedly wrote a business email using it- ("During My inspection of the jobsite, it was brought to My attention..."). I have since deliberately avoided using it. I don't levy any criticism of those who choose it- as with most things here, to each their own and many chatrooms insist upon it, which is their prerogative.

(in reply to Chimortis)
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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 9:31:27 AM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
Status: offline
*yawn*  grammar discussion 959 by now I suppose...it's tiring and I said enough about that one in the past. OP as "grammar nazi" would be better off using the search function on the boards  nuff said

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The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 9:36:36 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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I'm not sure where the problem is with capitalization being non-grammatical. Words and titles are capitalized normally as an honorific display or to differentiate terms from where they would be used in different contexts.

So, frankly, if we permit uncommon grammatical quirks that serve the useful purpose of clarification despite not being traditionally (arguably) part of basic grammar (Oxford comma, let's say), then the capitalization of terms in WIITWD should fall under the same sort of exemption.


_____________________________

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees


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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 9:46:41 AM   
oceanwyndsLoves


Posts: 44
Joined: 9/15/2009
Status: offline
Dear Op
You would have a field day with my grammar, and most likely this one could drive you stark -raving-mad. The thing though with me, is that i am now studying the proper usage of grammar. In college my English Professors would give me A's for composition, originality in thought and shake their heads as they gave me an F for grammar. This one is a  strange cookie, she works better with abstracts, but is learning how to format correct sentences and how to use punctuation. This assignment was not given to me, it is a desire within me to do it right.

Hopefully, my errors will not drive you start -raving- mad, and you might understand that some people have a learning disability, which I do. In my opinion it is a sad state of affairs, when others put people down for their grammar usage. It would be more beneficial to help them to discover another method in regards to learning.

Protocal is used occassionally by me out of respect.

Many blessings,
oceanwynds

< Message edited by oceanwyndsLoves -- 9/17/2009 9:48:13 AM >

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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 10:20:48 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
The slashy speak stuff annoys me no end. It's also difficult to read.

But I just think of this as a compatibility issue. I'm not compatible with people who insist I do this. Anymore than I am compatible with someone who is a vegetarian and who insists anyone he is with becomes one too. Or who is poly or demands I 'become' bi.

I could write with the slashy speak, but the writing would be short and stilted. If you want me to be able to pour out my thoughts and feelings on paper, then don't complain when it doesn't happen because you've put obstacles in my way.

But honestly, that stuff is not universal. Use this as part of your screening tools to determine compatibility.

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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 11:37:02 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline
quote:

I've always been one to pick writing in grammatically proper sentences over specific protocols which are common in terms of capitalization and such in the context of the internet BDSM scene. I probably qualify as a "grammar nazi."
Ummmm...."Nazi" should be capitalized....

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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 11:55:19 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I'm not sure where the problem is with capitalization being non-grammatical. Words and titles are capitalized normally as an honorific display or to differentiate terms from where they would be used in different contexts.

Yeah, to me it's not a grammatical thing. God knows I play fast and loose with the english language in my posts. The slashey stuff is just annoying and the capitalization... at least when applied to me... is just too pretentious. In My opinion, I'm not that important.

So I don't want the capitals for myself. But then again, I have no problem with other people using them so long as they don't expect me to. And, for some select individuals, if it mattered to them, I'd give them their capitals.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to NihilusZero)
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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 12:18:35 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
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I have, very rarely, allowed people to capitalize when speaking with me.  It is an acknowledgement of their show of regard and either it's an allowance of affection (Or I'm just not feeling like being bothered to tell 'em to cut it out).  If I am speaking of someone I respect or of a title that I hold in high regard, I will sometimes capitalize, however it annoys me if someone asks that I capitalize when speaking with them.  The psychology of my preferences is relatively simple. 
Oh, yeah, and I intentionally type bdsm in lower-case because I find otherwise to seem as if shouting and it strikes me as attention-seeking. 
Essentially, with capitalization, I hold to no rigid dogma.  :> 
  Davan

_____________________________

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-Me

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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 5:42:57 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
One other thing. Caps are readable. However there are low vision people here using voice programs that read the boards. If you write Y/you, the software will read it as "upper case y slash lower case y". I'm told that this makes it damn near impossible to follow the thread especially if it happens repeatedly in a post.

As I have some vision problems myself, and difficulty reading too small or too large fonts, or any in light colors, I am sensitive to those who find the slashy speak a major drawback because of the software reading it to them.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 6:35:12 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline
This may be just my observation, but... lately I have seen a lot less of the slashy speak.  I would cheer but I think it would bring down the rath of fate.  I continue to see many dominants (even in my circle), use upper and lower case, to denote rank.
Like Animus above I wonder if that habit carries over into nilla life. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The slashy speak stuff annoys me no end. It's also difficult to read.


(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: The online community: protocols versus grammar. - 9/17/2009 6:35:17 PM   
sravaka


Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline
I don't mind (sometimes) capitalizing/not capitalizing in the context of a one-on-one relationship.... and I often find it rather sweet when a submissive is capitalizing his/her dominant's pronouns on the boards.  But dominants who cap their own pronouns turn me off completely.  It's as Jeff said-- pretentious-- and it immediately disinclines me from striking up in any way.  (somehow LadyPact has come to be an exception to this, but she's the only one I know of.)

S/slash S/speak I simply refuse to read, whether here or on the other side.  It's mostly an aesthetic thing, but also stems from the underlying principle that all doms are capworthy and all subs are not.   Sends a bad message, I think.




_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

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