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A question for creditors - 9/17/2009 9:39:19 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I have a situation brewing and I don't know exactly which way to go. This is not for the faint of heart.

Back around May this year, a bill got lost. This was before the olman died and it was found much later in a magazine holder next to his desk. The payment did not get sent, but nonetheless, the interest got cranked up. Upon calling them they said "In six months we can review and lower the interest". OK. Fine, especially after we found the bill, after finding a chicken thawed for days under the table and so forth. We really were planning on getting him some help, to live assisted, and this all out of our own pockets, no institutionalization at all, one of his prime directives. People to drive him around and help with kitchen and house duties, that is until he rolled over and died.

At any rate, we found the bill, which basically means we were in the wrong. They cranked it from 3.9% to 17.9% in one fell swoop. I called them, explained the situation and was told that the reason does not matter, the terms of the loan are this and we can't change them. Oh really ? 

So I was polite and hung up, oh well. But in six months they would be willing to renegotiate, and within that time they got paid, but then last month a check got in the mail. That's why I try to never lie when using a lame excuse, because by Murphy's Law it will then happen for real and soon. And it did. This time a check really did get lost in the mail, and I am going to call the payment in, or my sister is, because we don't need a triple bill. Add to that the fact that we are trying right now to get a deficit release from the court do we can dispose of and use the property as we wish. My lawyer says agressive creditors are a bad thing to have.

Seems like a simple matter, either she gives me the money and I call it in, or I give her the money and she calls it in.

But the thing is that this happened, and at a critical time. Of couirse I will schmooze it over best I can, but any one black mark on my credit is a bad thing right now. Especially right now.

Now I never claimed to be totally honest when it comes to these matters, in fact in the end I would like to come out ahead, I admit it. But how to handle this current situation is beyond my pervue. How are they viewing this ? They got the call, I told them they never sent a bill. I was wrong, someone lost it. Now they really did lose the check, but how is this seen ? By them is all they know is that they did not get the check. Is there anything I can say or do short of alloowing direct debit to help fix this ? I am very reluctant to do that, but if it makes the difference I will.

I also do not want to go to any counsdeling services or any of that. Their money was right here, we can afford this. But why the heck would they believe us now ? You have to think about the other person's point of view. They have no way of knowing.

Perhaps I should overpay. They want $500 right now, have closed the account and notified me that the limit will spiral down with the extant balance. This is not so good. I fully intend to go through customer service to pay by phone, which might take some time, but it may be worth it. They want $500, should I pay them $750 or so ? Would it be worth it ?

I just need a bit of perspective here other than my own. I have never had to really deal with this situation. Most people who go late on payments don't have the money, this is not the case here. But right now was the worst time for shit like this to happen.

Any ideas ? First and foremost I never want them to think I am broke or even badly bent, although I am just a bit right now. With a combination of other credit and cash I could probably pay them off, should I ? I would rather not. I like having a nice boodle of cash for purchaes of vehicles, guns and so forth. As such I do maintain some balances, and those incurred when I went to FL, three times. I signed that I would pay and I will, but this situation has just gotten out of hand. First of all I am writing too amny checks a month, that will be addressed sooner rather than later. What's more we are mking a calendar, so in the future we know if there is an absent bill. Which reminds me I have not gotten my electric bill yet, now do I have to wait for the power to go out ?

Opinions and BS are cool, but something from someone in the credit industry would be cooler. This is Ohio, and of course there is the state of the economy, so what is my best move ?

T

Edited to add the original question. It is about $50 to cancel a check, but fifteent to pay by phone. Now using the same account and the original check number, it wouod void the check for all transactions right then and there. So if it goes through, we pay !15 to pay by phone, thus saving the $35 dollars. Does this work, or are we subject to an overdraft charge if someone uses that check. If it indeed got lost, there is good reason to believe it was found. It is made out to the bank itself and cannot be used except for over the phone. In that case, if we beat them to the punch, would that not void that check number, the one a thief would use because he would figure that since it never got ther, that it is open.

This is something I would like to know alot quicker than the answer to the whole problem, because that is due and payable right now.

T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 9/17/2009 9:49:04 PM >
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RE: A question for creditors - 9/17/2009 9:48:37 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Why would you hold a balance at 17.9%?

Pay it off immediately.

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/17/2009 10:01:16 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		T,  a black mark on your credit from banks which have no money?    Where nearly all of them are insolvent?

And you are concerned with what they think of you?

I post on other boards- and left and right credit lines are being canceled.    Even when the person has a good record.

Check your email...

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/17/2009 10:06:16 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		CYM, MM. With all this talk around here you might be proud of me. See how they screw us, well I intend to return the favor. All nice and legal.

Thing is about that check, if I can just do that and save the money, why not ? (actually your reply might have slipped in before my edit)

Thing is, would that be effective ?

As usual every question is many questions in disguise.

T

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/17/2009 10:11:08 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline 		Term, what's the bill for? In whose name was the account - your father's, or one of the kids?

If the bill was in your father's name, did his estate get probated? Is there officially an estate? Because if by some chance this was your father's debt, it could open up a whole range of options that would protect your credit. 

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/17/2009 10:28:26 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		The climate for credit is- that a credit line today is not a sure thing.

If anyone is reliant on their credit line- take the funds out now and park them.   Assume that all credit lines are going to be revoked.  That is the trend.

If you did not sign- the the bill is connected to the estate- if secured then the property which secured it could be in peril.

Lets say it is a house.  While they can get a lien on the house- in many states they can not easily make you sell the house to pay the lien.  Only that when you do sell the lien has to be paid.

If you play games with checks that could back fire.  If you already cut the check then....  well- locally I know it would look bad to stop payment.....

You certainly dont want to be anything remotely looking or seeming like fraud.   (seriously)

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/17/2009 10:39:39 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Panda, my lawyer says due to conditions he can get through what is called a deficit release. This is better than even an administrative release. These options are both better than probate. This is Ohio, the law might be different there. We have done everything we can to get this through this way, this guy is an expert. This is not probate, nor does it pretend to be. The premise is that the bills will be paid simply because we want to maintain good credit. But in this case shit really did happen. I would invite them to check all of out account balances to prove that their money was there.

Some time later comes my coup de etat, the bankrupcy, my interest in the property was sold, ostensibly to keep up with the bills. That should pave the way for one of the few chapter sevens they are giving away. That was the plan. It may have to change, but really I was born with nothing and if I leave with nothing so be it. In other words, although I have no intention of screwing up a good opportunity, I am not all that motivated to get evey dime into my hot little hand. One must be patient, but I have come across the impatient.

Thing is, no matter how nefarious you may consider my ultimate intentions, this was an honest mistake, an error, coupled with a true failure of the US mail system. Call me full of shit all you want but we all know how important it was NOT to have had something like this happen. Now I have to TRY to deal with the cleanup.

Life is a trip, I am telling you. And if so, think of the destination.

T

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/17/2009 11:31:37 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline 		Well, I'm sure not criticizing any of the moves you're making, bro. Business is business. Some day if we ever have a beer, I'll tell you the story of how I beat the salesman down almost 2 grand on my last car by deliberately stalling the negotiations so long into the afternoon that the only way he was going to get a sale all weekend was to pressure his manager into accepting my final, rock bottom offer. Dirty trick? Fuck, yeah. Do I feel badly? Fuck no. Business is business.

The thing I'm getting at though is, if the debt was in your dad's name and the estate was never probated, you may not owe the money at all, depending on the type of debt and the laws of your state. That's why I asked those specific questions. I went through something similar when my dad died last year, and wound up never paying a dime to the finance company that tried to squeeze me. If you've got an attorney, have you run that past him?


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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RE: A question for creditors - 9/18/2009 12:17:18 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Panda, it sounds like you would've gotten along with my Uncle Glenn. We called him the Jewish Uncle and we meant that stereotypically, as it was not for real, in fact an impossibility. But everything he touched turned to gold. Perhap Uncle Midas would've been more apporopriate.

He went to college, got a job at a finance co, during that time he met some people in debt. They put him in debt collection because first of all he was part of our clan which is so dominant by nature, people do not even believe my profile when I say I can bottom. And being very tall, he was a bit intimidating to some, not intentionally. What's more he was a financial genius and one of the things he did was to 'find' some IBM stock owned by a motivated seller. Everyone in the immediate family had a shitload of stock in IBM, and I mean back when it was good and splitting evey couple of years. Later he played with real estate.

One of the last times I talked to him was about he wanted to sell me a house I could not afford, I told him that I did not have the money. He told me "You don't need any money boy". I asked how's that, and he replied "Not on the phone". Shortly thereafter he was dead. He dropped dead holding up a ladder for his daughter in law who was picking apples in his orchard, and as a joke, as our family always does, I surmise that he saw something he probably shouldn't have seen :-)

Not to hijack myself too much, but just to let you know how my family is, when my Grampa died. Well this was his own Father and you would expect "Well Jeffrey, your Granmpa has passed" or something like that. Not Uncle Glenn. "Grampa's dead". Two words. And he knew how close I was to my Gramdfather, but it was not malice, I think it was training. Get ready for life boy, because if you think this is hard, try a taste of reality.

Like my buddy, who's Dad handed him a loaded gun without telling him it was loaded. The lesson he learned that day would be hard to forget. Some people believe in that form of teaching. So be it. Persoanlly they ran it down for me, loaded, unloaded, chambered, unchanbered, revolver, a different story. But for him it came down to always check it yourself, which is what I do. So the end result was the same.

I may or may have not found a way through this quaqmire, but I am still not going to lose. I was born with nothing, how the hell could I lose ?

Reallly, if they told me I have nothing and to leave the premises in thirty days I would laugh at them. Thinking that way, there is no way to lose. Think that way, it gets rid of alot of stress. realy if things don't go right, we can just blow this all off. Not the best solution, but one of many viable solutions.

T

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/18/2009 5:13:19 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		T, you still haven;t answered the question of whose bill is it. If it's your father's and the estate is closed, they can;'t collect it. I received a hospital bill for my mother more than six months after she died, on the day I was disbursing the monies in the estate. I called them up and yelled at them for waiting that long to mail it. I paid it because the estate was still in existance.

But two days later the bill would not have been collectable because there would no longer have been an estate to pay it.

You are not liable for his debts. His estate is.

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/18/2009 5:30:57 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		As someone in collections it really doesn't matter what they think of you, all they want is the money.  Yes sometimes we have people whose checks really are lost in the mail, sometimes I believe them, sometimes I don't.  Does my opinion really matter?  If it's already late, it's already on a credit report, so getting it paid quickly won't matter and overpaying it won't make a difference, they will just carry a credit that some day has to be refunded.  In my business we have a little more room to work with people than credit card collectors, and your particular situation, the death of your father, would make a difference.  However I don't think CC companies are so flexible. 

When I make my own personal judgement of the person I'm dealing with I take into consideration the following:
1-How often have they been late?
2-Do they pay the late fees or constantly ask to have them reversed?
3-How polite were they on the phone? Willing to admit mistake or blame everyone else for the late payment?

So there you have it.  But in the end my "personal judgement" means nothing.  All that matters is a zero balance.

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/18/2009 6:29:01 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

As someone in collections it really doesn't matter what they think of you, all they want is the money.  Yes sometimes we have people whose checks really are lost in the mail, sometimes I believe them, sometimes I don't.  Does my opinion really matter?  If it's already late, it's already on a credit report, so getting it paid quickly won't matter and overpaying it won't make a difference, they will just carry a credit that some day has to be refunded.  In my business we have a little more room to work with people than credit card collectors, and your particular situation, the death of your father, would make a difference.  However I don't think CC companies are so flexible. 

When I make my own personal judgement of the person I'm dealing with I take into consideration the following:
1-How often have they been late?
2-Do they pay the late fees or constantly ask to have them reversed?
3-How polite were they on the phone? Willing to admit mistake or blame everyone else for the late payment?

So there you have it.  But in the end my "personal judgement" means nothing.  All that matters is a zero balance.



Good post!

I have heard- and had done this once... where one can horse trade.   "I pay x amount"  "you remove the ding on the credit report".

The trouble with dings is they have a habit of reappearing- even years later.  Or one bureau logs the correction but another bureau does not.

I know for sure that bill collectors use bad data.  I get calls for the gal that used to own the place- calls for the person who one had the same number years ago- my own calls- and now even calls of one more person who I am guessing gave a wrong phone number.

Any time I have dealt with a serious matter like this- I did so certified postal mail return receipt.  

One good thing- when they call your house- there is not way out media playing and a parrot screeching.   lol.

BTW a new robo call law went into effect on the 15th.  Who knows if it will work.   

I am tho amazed at how many calls I get for the old owner- and when I say there is no one here by that name- they simply do not beleive me.  So it is a time waster to get all upset.

Some of the strategy is to make you think about them and the account.

I did have my own bill collector come to my door.   I was not home- but these people are 4 hours away.  On the follow up call- I told them they sent a man to my home and that will NOT happen again.    (it did not)  But I suppose I was to feel intimidated and send money right away.  Of course when the rep was on my porch- I am sure he noted the value of the house- the cars in the driveway, and so forth.

I noticed they also use a range of accents to try to score.

When tho- in the case that I said- "that will not happen again!", in effect- that is telling them to sue me.     So I am probably on the list.    Some days- for what this house is- it is tempting to just sign it over to them.   (not really- but - you get the idea)

My brother also bought a foreclosure.   Last week a process server tried to serve the old owner.   The kicker is the ethnicity of that person vs my brother is a huge variation.  ...but that did not deter the attempt to serve the summons.  

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/18/2009 7:22:33 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

See how they screw us, well I intend to return the favor. All nice and legal.

Thing is about that check, if I can just do that and save the money, why not ?


Spite is always a lousy financial decision. It clouds judgment.

Think dollars and sense, clean up the mess and move on.

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/18/2009 7:51:58 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Quickly - the debt was in both of our names. I signed as well. I know it looks as if I am trying to get over.

<Smugly smiles without another word.

TN, that should answer your question along with this. This credit was joint, we were jointly and severally liable for it. Right now I am concerned with inheriting a house free and clear in light of this debt. Up until May this year we were never ever late and had absolutely pristeen credit. Now it is not a lack of money, it's just that I didn't realize how much work it was just to keep up on getting all the checks written in a month. Now we are in process of closing some of them down rather than continuing to write about twelve checks a month, and that does not include two sets of utility bills whatever else.

This credit needs to be maintain for a time, perhaps years after the actual release of the real property by the court, otherwise questions may arise about attempted fraud. This is straight from my lawyer's mouth. The ultimate goal is to keep the real property and file bankruptcy on the unsecured debt, somewhere around like fifty grand worth of it.

This would never work this way without the bubble bursting in the housing market, the value of the property would be too high. Then it would be regular probate, something that none of us want. Other reasons include that the olman was the obstinant sort, and there are a few things he simply refused to pay, like certain hospital bills. Copays mainly.

I know it must be coming clear now what I am trying to do, but if you've ever been screwed by a bank (anyone want to stand up and raise their hand ?) don't think of me in a bad way, just as someone who got some of that money back. It's not really a scam, because the extant situation which I describe is accurate, it is true. Therefore the situation is that I am telling the truth, how can it be a scam ? If that doesn't make sense to you, ask all those people at the top who are actually getting the bailouts from the feds. It is the exact same defense. If it works for them it should work for me.

Ruthless ? : Yes. Immoral ? : You be the judge. I don't remember offhand who's sig this is, but I would much rather be hated for what I am than be loved for what I am not. My favorite psychopath loves this plan, and brings me money sometimes to help out, he loves this plan because to go to jail trying it is very unlikely. I guess you could say it was decades in the making.

What's more I can actually say that it was not my intent in the beginning. But now it is :-)

And the best part is this, if out from under the debt load, whether via bankrupcy or just blowing them off, I can live quite well on fifteen to twenty hours a week. I would consider that a near retirement, something which i
simply cannot do formally. Remember I traded in everything for getting all my money now. If the shit hits the fan I got more shit to sell off than Walmart, and alot cooler shit too, but as Carlin said, my shit is stuff, other people's stuff is shit. All I have to do is to convince them of that and I could take a year off.

My major problem right now is that I have created a monster in the form of "The Sinisters" which is a group of Women who should not be trifled with. I must make not one but two of my spedial pizzas on the seventeenth of October, at risk of gunpoint as it is a joint birthday party. I was also politely informed that the party is going to be at my house :-). Before I get you going on this, remember that my sinister sister has somehow become the leader of this gang.

Just to put it in perspective.

(trying to lighten up a bit here befoe I goto jail,,,,umm I mean work.) I'll have to start a thread on that. How can work pay so good, with people who are ultimately cooperative with me because of orders from the tops, the ulimate iin accomodation yet I can still hate it. Well we can go back to my time in jail. It really wasn't so bad, all I really wanted was to be able to throw the assholes out of jail and I would be happy to stay, even without the beer and other things. Just control over my own environment is what I found to be important to me. An interesting experience nonetheless.

We the unwilling,
Led by the unknowing,
Have been doing so much,
With so little,
For so long,
That we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

Don't rip into me too hard now, it is early and I haven't smo.... had breakfast yet.

T

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/18/2009 8:49:30 AM   
UncleNasty


Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline 		Term,

Do not ever do a "check by phone." The potential downsides far outweigh the conveniences.

As for a "stop payment" on the lost check I have to ask "Why?" Isn't it made to order already? That would mean no other party or entity can cash the check. And since it is made out to a/the party you admit to being indebted to what is the harm in their cashing or depositing the check?

I am much more familiar with "closed end" credit transactions than I am "open end." Still reading the Truth in Lending Act and the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act would be beneficial to you. Below is a link to TILA (look in subpart B), and FDCPA you can easily find by googling.

http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/6500-1400.html#fdictail

Uncle Nasty

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/18/2009 8:51:12 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		Term

Business is business. I see things financial very much in black and white.

And yes I hold my hand up here, I have a bank trying to rip me off. Not going to succeed but the money I'm going to get back will go towards financing my trip to North America. They've already struck against my credit rating and despite the fact that I have referred the matter for arbitration and investigation they are proceeding with legal action.

The debt they're so upset about, which currently stands at £300 comes from bank charges against transactions which never took place when they didn't follow my instructions. There's not even any real money involved, it's just figures on a screen or computer printout. As there was no transaction to begin with, I had no involvement and thus am not liable for this debt. It's their mistake.

However there's two things. First thing is this is the bank who took about £800 last year in bank charges when I had no income over five months and despite numerous attempts on my part to appeal on grounds of hardship and financial difficulty all of which failed. Second this is I have already tried to reason with the bank over this £300 debt, have offered to provide written proof, and have tried but wasn't allowed to use the bank's own complaints procedure.

Okay, no problem. Only now things have changed, and this is no longer a case of writing off that erroneous £300 debt. I now want those bank charges back to compensate me for the additional hardship I also went through negotiating with all my utility companies for more time until I managed to pay off the outstanding amounts and get back on track with my bills. The time for dealing with the bank on a personal level is over. It's long gone.

However in the meantime I keep on top of my bills and maintain 100% feedback on my e-Bay account.

The thing is either you are liable for this debt, or you're not. If you're not, then take the steps to prove it. But if you are, and you are not in a position to settle the entire account immediately then what you do is get in touch with whoever is the creditor or managing the debt and you make arrangements with them, and you keep doing this until the matter is settled.

The amount or the money involved doesn't matter here. It's black and white, you either have the money or you don't, you either pay or you don't. It really is that simple.

Ever heard the expression 'time is money'? It's true, time IS money. Only when you have a debt or something that you cannot cover you're not talking about money - money isn't the issue - but you are talking about time, and time is very much the issue.

This is something usually known to anyone working in a Collections Department. They would like to talk to those who cannot pay about money, but they invariably end up talking to such people about time. Time is what is really at stake, and until that moment comes when you pay time is the only thing you need and can get from such people.

Usually the time they decide to give you depends largely on how you've spent that time between the payment becoming due to the time when you talk to them. I usually find that the less time you wait before contacting your creditors gives you more time to ask for when you are negotiating payment.

I'm by no means a business expert but I do know that business relies heavily on contact and communication.

Consider that last year I managed to string my electricity company along for a little over nine months without making any sort of a payment but only once got a Final Demand and never got anywhere near being disconnected. I just kept in touch with them.

Therefore Term it's quite simple, you work out the issue of 'if' and IF you do owe the money you keep in touch and handle the 'when'. That's all they're really bothered about - when.

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RE: A question for creditors - 9/19/2009 5:58:51 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		1) if you signed for it jointly, then you are severally liable and its irrelevant to these parasites whether your dad (RIP) died or ran off to Rio - you are liable for the whole debt, regardless of your dad's estate if any
2) if you signed as guarantor or to provide an indemnity, look up what that means legally in your state (at least one of these terms doesnt entirely mean what they might like you to think it means, under English law anyway)
3) check the agreement - unless it provides for increases in interest rates or other default penalties then theyre only due costs for breach of contract - though your local law might say differently
4) if you didnt sign jointly, then assuming a positive outcome to (2) as to your liability, dont pay another penny; depending on local law doing so may indicate agreement to take on the debt as the contracting party
5) overall the answer must be to consult a local lawyer costs permitting; I would start with the loan agreement itself and trying to pick holes in it that might make it void. Costs not permitting then find yourself an independent paralegal who specialises in this field - much lower cost and likely just as good in the specialism

Stella - if you'd like me to look over your affairs I'd be happy to do so and provide any help/advice I can FOC; been busy last few months and I'm now a Certified Paralegal in addition to my other talents! Naturally its all confidential amd registered under the Data Protection Act etc. To be honest, given some of the stuff I'm sorting out for some people right now, yours sounds quite tame!

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 17
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