RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (Full Version)

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ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 5:08:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Judging by your past posts I don't believe that you are interested in hearing from anyone who doesn't perfectly fall in line with your way of thinking. I believe that what you are after here is pure harassment, and nothing more, which yours isn't a game that I'm interested in playing now, or ever.



I was wondering what trick you were going to try to slither out of it this time. In your eyes, any time someone asks you to back up your nonsense with actual facts, it's "pure harassment". Right. Got it. Why don't you just come right out and say it? You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, but you heard it on the Glen Beck show and it sounded good.

Now I believe this is the point where you send me another private e-mail filled with personal insults, like the last time we went around. Have at it.





Sanity -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 5:20:14 PM)


I still have a modicum of respect for you Arpig. I find you highly antagonistic and nearly unreasonable while discussing this one issue but overall I find you very balanced and honorable.

Regarding the issue at hand, wouldn't it be nice though if Obama were to come right out and say what you did, that he thinks its the best solution, but that he realizes that we're not ready as a nation for that yet? And that he would like to find a reasonable compromise?

Right now the discussion is poisoned because its clear that thats what he wants and its also clear that hes being two faced about it, which is obviously causing suspicion and distrust.

Honesty is really best, don't you think? He's not doing a good job of hiding it anyway. He may as well open up, because then I could at least respect him. I find it very difficult to respect anyone who I know is being dishonest with me.

Don't you?



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 5:23:07 PM)

I agree. Not only are the uninsured a drain, but those that cannot even afford their Medicare deductables or 20% also increase the cost. I can only give you an example of a DME (Durable Medical Equipment) as that is where my experience is. Based in the area our company was in, and the max amount Medicare would pay, we increased the price of the equipment based upon the loss from the 20% that was usually not paid for a motorized wheelchair. Medicare paid approx $4400 for everything, as their portion of the wheelchair. The last time I did a quarterly check for the amount the patient was not paying, it was about 18.3%, so we added that into the total cost of the equipment, approx $6000. So the billed amount was the $6000, the collected amount was about $4500, and then after several invoices and letters later we wrote off the $1500 to bad debt, which also reduced taxable income.

So if we knew the other 20% was going to actually be paid, then the cost of the product to Medicare should be about $3520 and not $4400.

Now one of the things I did not like about the Medicare rules (which we broke often) was that we were not supposed to sale something to anyone at a lower cost. Because of the area we were in, we often got people that would come in on fixed budgets that needed items Medicare would not provide for them. If they brought me some proof of income, we often sold those items to them at 5% above cost. How I got around it was that I listed them as a distribution customer in our accounting system, and sold to them at a wholesale price. It was one small way that we could contribute to the community.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Each time we visit a Dr or Hospital, we pay a small portion of the bills incurred by those who cannot. By giving all at least minimal insurance, some of this cost will be removed from those who are paying it now, such as Medicare and Private Insurance, and given back to those who now have insurance.

To me, its truly a process of simple mathematics. Medicare and Medicaid are a drain on our system. Remove some of the drain.. and their cost will decrease.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 5:31:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
I find it very difficult to respect anyone who I know is being dishonest with me.

Don't you?


Yes. As a matter of fact, I do. Ironic that you would mention that.



Brain -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 5:59:23 PM)

The best way to reduce health care costs is with a public option. It has been articulated well by Dennis Kucinich in the past as well as many others. If anybody doesn’t understand that a public option increases competition and reduces costs by now it’s because they don’t want to. And that is because they are interested in protecting the corporate interests and profits.

Dennis Kucinich-HealthCare briefing in Washington, DC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWXRwrYa4oU



Aylee -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 6:03:36 PM)

Panda, here is another link for you, this one addressing the cross state health insurance.  



Arpig -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 6:50:41 PM)

quote:

Regarding the issue at hand, wouldn't it be nice though if Obama were to come right out and say what you did, that he thinks its the best solution, but that he realizes that we're not ready as a nation for that yet? And that he would like to find a reasonable compromise?
I agree, he should do just that...well almost, what he should do is ram single-payer through and damn the torpedoes, but if he did he wouldn't get reelected...but eventually he would be seen as one of the great Presidents, one who did the right thing regardless of the political costs to him. But seeing as that is a pipe dream and a half, I agree with you...stating his position and being open to honest compromise would be better than what is going on...Hell ain't nobody knows exactly what is in all those different bills. I completely understand the confusion and distrust that many feel, even Obama can only say what he hopes will be in the final Bill, nobody knows, there are umpteen health/insurance reform bills and amendments before both houses right now..a real dog's breakfast.



thornhappy -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 7:19:45 PM)

On a related note, I've heard & read that the pharmaceutical companies (in the US) spend more on executive pay + marketing than they do on R&D. 

And some of their most lucrative drugs were developed by the NIH.

thornhappy 



Arpig -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 7:25:28 PM)

Viagra was invented in the UK, Levitra by 2 German companies and one UK company.



Sanity -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 7:36:49 PM)


The CEOs responsible for those R&D projects certainly deserve tremendous raises as well as some very serious perks.

[8D]



quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Viagra was invented in the UK, Levitra by 2 German companies and one UK company.




Brain -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 7:49:30 PM)

The truth about the drug companies: how they deceive us and what to do
about it
By Marcia Angell

http://books.google.ca/books?id=5DKwxAnhTygC&dq=the+truth+about+the+drug+companies&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=GwqPhIL792&sig=vDN5Oh5YjBBeHhdnLWvCDc5E1lw&hl=en&ei=6kK0Sp2kIpLWM_GCvdoO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false

by Marcia Angell - 2004 - Business & Economics - 305 pages During her two decades at The New England
Journal of Medicine, Dr. Marcia Angell had a front-row seat on the appalling spectacle of the
pharmaceutical industry.



hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 8:05:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

On a related note, I've heard & read that the pharmaceutical companies (in the US) spend more on executive pay + marketing than they do on R&D. 

And some of their most lucrative drugs were developed by the NIH.

thornhappy 
   I'm so fed up with the BigPharma companies that I could SCREAM.  Dad is currently on 8 seperate medications.  2 of which cost more than $300 a month - EACH.  Fortunately for me, I managed to find Really Good pharm insurance for dad - which means I make a $10/month co-payment for those Incredibly Price Inflated drugs, rather than having to wonder whether or not the electricity is gonna get paid, or there's going to be food on the table.  I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that it doesn't cost those pharmacutical companies $300+ to produce 180 capsules of either of those drugs.  I'll have to see if I can't find where I stashed the links, but I've seen information to indicate that the pharmacutical companies are getting close to an 800% profit margin on various drugs for the entire time that they're still under patent protection - and even when things come off that protection, they're still getting close to 300% profit markup.
 
The insurance companies aren't any better than the pharmacutical companies.  Pay in for years, and as long as you never do more than take a yearly physical they don't squawk.  Get sick though - and you'll suddenly find that whatever problem you have isn't covered, or they'll find a way to say it was somehow "pre-existing" and therefore they aren't obligated to cover anything,  Or they'll simply do what they did to my mom, not long before she died.  They'll tell you that your doctor is "to agressive" in treating your illness, and therefore they aren't willing to cover charges from him any longer - go find a different doctor.  The medication you're taking, which is actually having a positive effect and getting your disease process under control - is considered "experimental" for your disease, so they aren't willing to cover treatment.  You've been in the hospital for as many days as their company says it 'should' take to cure you according to statistics they've pulled out of their asses, therefore you're to go home or pay out of pocket despite the fact that your plan is supposed to cover All your expenses.



shannie -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 8:44:27 PM)

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Each time we visit a Dr or Hospital, we pay a small portion of the bills incurred by those who cannot. By giving all at least minimal insurance, some of this cost will be removed from those who are paying it now ....


This is an absolute myth that the insurance companies are propagating to gain public support for a law that is designed only to increase their profits. What makes anyone think that the "savings in operating costs" will accrue to the consumer (instead of profits at the top)?   There is not some "set percentage of profit," so that anything above that automatically accrues to the consumer.  Like hardbodysub said, they are already operating at tremendous profits. Are they passing that down to the consumer now? No.  So why would they do so if health insurance was mandatory (or universal)?





shannie -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 8:50:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

The insurance companies aren't any better than the pharmacutical companies.  Pay in for years, and as long as you never do more than take a yearly physical they don't squawk.  Get sick though - and you'll suddenly find that whatever problem you have isn't covered, or they'll find a way to say it was somehow "pre-existing" and therefore they aren't obligated to cover anything,  Or they'll simply do what they did to my mom, not long before she died.  They'll tell you that your doctor is "to agressive" in treating your illness, and therefore they aren't willing to cover charges from him any longer - go find a different doctor.  The medication you're taking, which is actually having a positive effect and getting your disease process under control - is considered "experimental" for your disease, so they aren't willing to cover treatment.  You've been in the hospital for as many days as their company says it 'should' take to cure you according to statistics they've pulled out of their asses, therefore you're to go home or pay out of pocket despite the fact that your plan is supposed to cover All your expenses.


And yet, Americans are being tricked into lobbying for "more corporate health insurance" (on the taxpayer's back) as the remedy for all the problems caused by corporate health insurance!



awmslave -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 9:34:43 PM)

Perhaps Obama may save all the headache, say to Congress to stop all the nonsense they came out with, and nominate medicine price control czar. Then the government can accommodate the uninsured budget neutral way.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 9:44:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Panda, here is another link for you, this one addressing the cross state health insurance.  


Thanks, Aylee. Those are interesting arguments, and clearly Krauthammer makes a good case for some fundamental changes that would go a long ways toward solving the problem of keeping costs under control.

But both pieces fall far short of "fixing everything that's wrong with our health insurance system." They offer a lot of ideas for helping insurance companies make lots of money, but they do nothing at all to solve the problems of making coverage available to everyone who needs it, and they do nothing to solve the problems that Peach so eloquently illustrates here -

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

The insurance companies aren't any better than the pharmacutical companies.  Pay in for years, and as long as you never do more than take a yearly physical they don't squawk.  Get sick though - and you'll suddenly find that whatever problem you have isn't covered, or they'll find a way to say it was somehow "pre-existing" and therefore they aren't obligated to cover anything,  Or they'll simply do what they did to my mom, not long before she died.  They'll tell you that your doctor is "to agressive" in treating your illness, and therefore they aren't willing to cover charges from him any longer - go find a different doctor.  The medication you're taking, which is actually having a positive effect and getting your disease process under control - is considered "experimental" for your disease, so they aren't willing to cover treatment.  You've been in the hospital for as many days as their company says it 'should' take to cure you according to statistics they've pulled out of their asses, therefore you're to go home or pay out of pocket despite the fact that your plan is supposed to cover All your expenses.


All these suggestions really do is make the insurance companies healthier. Apparently, the hope is that if we make it easier for them to make even more gazillions of dollars in profits each year, at some point they'll just decide out of the goodness of their hearts that they don't need to keep deliberately killing people to make even more profits. And make no mistake - that is exactly what they are doing, and that is exactly why they are doing it.

You can make all the tweaks you want in terms of tort reform and all the other things Krauthammer suggests, but at the end of the day the fundamental problem is that insurance companies make money by denying people the care they need, not providing it. Period. The only ways to solve that are to implement national single payer universal coverage, like most civilized countries do, or follow the Swiss model and regulate insurance companies rigidly as though they were public utilities.



tazzygirl -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 9:58:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: shannie

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Each time we visit a Dr or Hospital, we pay a small portion of the bills incurred by those who cannot. By giving all at least minimal insurance, some of this cost will be removed from those who are paying it now ....


This is an absolute myth that the insurance companies are propagating to gain public support for a law that is designed only to increase their profits. What makes anyone think that the "savings in operating costs" will accrue to the consumer (instead of profits at the top)?   There is not some "set percentage of profit," so that anything above that automatically accrues to the consumer.  Like hardbodysub said, they are already operating at tremendous profits. Are they passing that down to the consumer now? No.  So why would they do so if health insurance was mandatory (or universal)?





Because they would have no choice, if they wish to stay competitive. a cheaper public option would send all the insurance companies scrambling to find ways to compete. Hospitals would be the first ones hit with demands to bring costs in line with the new insurance market. would it happen over night? nope. it would have to happen though, the market would demand it. its not like two private companies going at each other. its government against private. Medicare and Medicaid would be the first two to profit. And yes, i believe Medicare recipients would see the differences... after all... the politicians need their votes to be elected.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/18/2009 11:50:16 PM)

quote:

Regarding the issue at hand, wouldn't it be nice though if Obama were to come right out and say what you did, that he thinks its the best solution, but that he realizes that we're not ready as a nation for that yet? And that he would like to find a reasonable compromise? ORIGINAL: Sanity



Can I point out that the minute health insurance reform was put on the table, the shouts of "Socialism" and "government takeover" became deafening? How about the fact that when discussion was solicited, it was viewed as an opportunity for the swastikas and the pictures of Obama as Hitler to come out? Maybe we could remember how vilified the public option was by those purely grass roots protesters?

I've heard a lot from the opponents of this bill that they wanted the government to listen to the "voice of the people" and to take their protests seriously. Well, the crafters of this bill have listened. And the poor, weak, useless bill that will eventually pass is what is going to come out of it.

Anyone feel like offering congratulations?



shannie -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/19/2009 5:47:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

I've heard a lot from the opponents of this bill that they wanted the government to listen to the "voice of the people" and to take their protests seriously. Well, the crafters of this bill have listened. And the poor, weak, useless bill that will eventually pass is what is going to come out of it.


Congress is not "listening" because a bunch of rednecks got up in arms. They are "listening" to their TRUE constituents, who want a bill that transfers billions of dollars to the corporate insurance industry. And when it passes, they can count on the masses to blame a bunch of rednecks, instead of the corporate henchmen who are pillaging this country.




tazzygirl -> RE: Costs of the uninsured/underinsured (9/19/2009 6:04:55 AM)

shannie

what are you talking about?



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