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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 4:58:42 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

This is nonsense. It’s an old and tired argument that any form of social co-operation is socialism and therefore the acceptance of any form of social co-operation (i.e. interstate highways) negates a person’s argument when they criticizing actual socialism (tyranny) or any form of government control over our lives. There is a difference between paying some taxes in order to have a police force and paying ridiculously higher (and higher and higher) taxes in order to support a bloated, ineffective bureaucracy that constantly seeks to expanded itself by taking more and more of our freedoms away.

It is established that private enterprise can build transportation networks. The government doing it is clearly socialism.

As to paying higher taxes, no one is paying higher taxes than they were even 30 years ago. We've had tax cut after tax cut under 20 years of GOP POTUS and it hasn't worked. The benefits didn't trickle down. The middle class has shrunk, the rich have concentrated more and more wealth. The federal debt is so high we are facing generations of either truly crippling taxes or no spending on things that even you believe are necessary (infrastructure and national defence).

In short true capitalism doesn't work, we proved it in the late 19th century and again as we've reduced regulation over the last 30 years. Western European socialism, government paying for education. health care and a safety net, does work and produces robust economies with competitive corporations (evidenced by the number of US companies bought by European companies this last 30 years).

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 5:24:13 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

In short true capitalism doesn't work

Neither does true democracy, for the same reason....

The financial bust reminds us that free markets require a constellation of moral virtues.

There is no substitute for personal virtue. The notion of a virtuous socialist State is the wet dream of an elitist.

K.






< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/21/2009 5:30:08 PM >

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 5:34:05 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

There is no substitute for personal virtue. The notion of a virtuous socialist State is the wet dream of an elitist.
ORIGINAL: Kirata



Ok, Kirata. I have to admit I'm out of ideas. How do you figure we can promote a virtuous society of any kind, democracy, socialism, etc.? If you have any workable ideas, I'm more than willing to jump on-board. As it stands, I haven't seen much of virtue in any society larger than ten people or so.


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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 5:46:05 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Ok, Kirata. I have to admit I'm out of ideas. How do you figure we can promote a virtuous society of any kind, democracy, socialism, etc.? If you have any workable ideas, I'm more than willing to jump on-board. As it stands, I haven't seen much of virtue in any society larger than ten people or so.

In the final analysis, I think it falls to education, Spinner. We need to teach our children the values that make a free society possible, and which alone can preserve it. They need to understand, really understand, the importance of those values, and the inevitable cost of failing to uphold them.

K.

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 6:48:55 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

In the final analysis, I think it falls to education, Spinner. We need to teach our children the values that make a free society possible, and which alone can preserve it. They need to understand, really understand, the importance of those values, and the inevitable cost of failing to uphold them. ORIGINAL: Kirata




I would agree with that, Kitara. The problem is, those who teach values tend to have a passionate agenda. Look at the left wing liberals first, if you will. Working for a common cause is a great value. Justice for all is another strong value. Evening the playing field so that everyone has an equal opportunity is a noble cause. Now look at the right wing conservatives. Individual responsibility is a fine ideal. Duty and honor are important values. The problem is when the attempt is made to codify those values into anything that resembles the past or present world.

Add to that the idea the fact that there are a lot of values that people disagree on. To some, the idea that a fetus is a full human being deserving of all the rights of any person. To others, a fetus is not yet a full human being and the rights of the mother are the overwhelming factor. To some, same sex marriage is a basic human civil right. Others just as passionately believe that it is an abomination, a sin and a threat to the institution of marriage.

To further complicate matters, it seems that rather than coming together on what matters we can agree upon, we as a people are far more interested in arguing about those matters we don't agree upon. As this board shows in microcosm, soon there is more yelling than talking, more blaming then solving and such acrimony that any reason is lost. Hell, not too long ago I posted a simple premise upon which I thought everyone could agree. I said it might help the process of debate if we stopped using the terms nazi and communist. It shocked me that not one poster in reply said "You know, that's a pretty good idea"

If we can't agree on such simple decencies, how are we going to teach values to our children?


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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 8:36:32 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

This is nonsense. It’s an old and tired argument that any form of social co-operation is socialism and therefore the acceptance of any form of social co-operation (i.e. interstate highways) negates a person’s argument when they criticizing actual socialism (tyranny) or any form of government control over our lives. There is a difference between paying some taxes in order to have a police force and paying ridiculously higher (and higher and higher) taxes in order to support a bloated, ineffective bureaucracy that constantly seeks to expanded itself by taking more and more of our freedoms away.
Asis your reply. Socialism is not tyranny, granted it can be used to establish a tyranny, but so can conservatism, capitalism or any other ism you wish to examine. As to socialism creating some sort of out of control bureaucratic hydra that is hellbent on stripping you of your freedoms, well that just ain't so. Socialism is not about taking away freedoms, it is about working together to better address problems as a collective rather than as individuals.

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 8:44:37 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

Without getting into the Republican-Democrat mud slinging, here's an article on the Tea Party leader that both sides should check out. Its non-partisan, and should be looked at objectively. Enjoy! http://www.prisonplanet.com/open-letter-to-glenn-beck-by-alex-jones.html
Its kinda hard to look at anything from Alex Jones objectively without wondering when he's going to start taking his meds.

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 9:34:14 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

It is established that private enterprise can build transportation networks. The government doing it is clearly socialism.

As to paying higher taxes, no one is paying higher taxes than they were even 30 years ago. We've had tax cut after tax cut under 20 years of GOP POTUS and it hasn't worked. The benefits didn't trickle down. The middle class has shrunk, the rich have concentrated more and more wealth. The federal debt is so high we are facing generations of either truly crippling taxes or no spending on things that even you believe are necessary (infrastructure and national defence).

In short true capitalism doesn't work, we proved it in the late 19th century and again as we've reduced regulation over the last 30 years. Western European socialism, government paying for education. health care and a safety net, does work and produces robust economies with competitive corporations (evidenced by the number of US companies bought by European companies this last 30 years).


My point isn’t to make an argument for or against Capitalism. For the record: I don’t know what “true” Capitalism is. I do know that pure Capitalism is as un-conductive toward a free society as pure Socialism – the answers are rarely found at the extremes.

My point is that insinuating that people who argue against socialism are hypocrites because they drive on highways or like having a police force in town is no argument at all. It is a dodge from having to argue. It is a straw man. Any argument/position can be made to look silly if you push it to the extreme. Being in favor of lower and fewer taxes (or whatever euphemism they go by – fees, surcharges, penalties, etc, -- a rose by any other name…) does not mean being against all taxes. Likewise, being against socialism does not mean being against libraries. It’s just daft.


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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 9:56:32 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

This is nonsense. It’s an old and tired argument that any form of social co-operation is socialism and therefore the acceptance of any form of social co-operation (i.e. interstate highways) negates a person’s argument when they criticizing actual socialism (tyranny) or any form of government control over our lives. There is a difference between paying some taxes in order to have a police force and paying ridiculously higher (and higher and higher) taxes in order to support a bloated, ineffective bureaucracy that constantly seeks to expanded itself by taking more and more of our freedoms away.


See, you are absolutely right.

Yet what the OP points out is the ridiculousness of the current claims of Obama's socialism.

Because, as you said, social cooperation is not socialism.






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/21/2009 9:58:04 PM >

(in reply to Marc2b)
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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 10:07:59 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Asis your reply. Socialism is not tyranny, granted it can be used to establish a tyranny, but so can conservatism, capitalism or any other ism you wish to examine.



In it’s strictest sense Socialism is government ownership and/or management of the means of production and distribution of goods and services. In the more general sense it is increasing government control over the everyday aspects of our lives. Government control over our lives is tyranny. That’s my position and I’m sticking with it.

quote:

As to socialism creating some sort of out of control bureaucratic hydra that is hellbent on stripping you of your freedoms, well that just ain't so. Socialism is not about taking away freedoms, it is about working together to better address problems as a collective rather than as individuals.


In other words, it’s for our own good. It’s always for our own good. We’re burning these witches for our your good. We’re enslaving these Africans for your (and their!) own good. We’re killing these Jews for your own good. We’re censoring this book for your own good. We’re raising your taxes and diminishing your choices for your own good. You should beware of things that are for your own good because often – not always, but often – they are really for someone else’s own good.


< Message edited by Marc2b -- 9/21/2009 10:20:50 PM >

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 10:08:32 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavehandsome

Without getting into the Republican-Democrat mud slinging, here's an article on the Tea Party leader that both sides should check out. Its non-partisan, and should be looked at objectively. Enjoy! http://www.prisonplanet.com/open-letter-to-glenn-beck-by-alex-jones.html



This from your link is one of the reasons I don't understand how anyone can believe Beck has a shred of credibility:


During your Monday September 22 2008 TV broadcast, you expressed your vehement support for the bailout, stating, “The $700 billion dollars that you’re hearing about now is not only I believe necessary, it is also not nearly enough.” However, as soon as Bush left office and Obama picked up the baton and continued the same financial policy, you changed your tune and routinely attacked the bailout as an example of how socialism was taking over America.



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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 10:15:04 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The financial bust reminds us that free markets require a constellation of moral virtues.

There is no substitute for personal virtue. The notion of a virtuous socialist State is the wet dream of an elitist.

K.


I'm confused.

You are using the example of the financial crisis as an indictment of socialism and to endorse the moral virtues of free market economies?

Can you say Bernie Madoff?






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/21/2009 10:48:34 PM >

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 10:22:45 PM   
hardbodysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

This is nonsense. It’s an old and tired argument that any form of social co-operation is socialism and therefore the acceptance of any form of social co-operation (i.e. interstate highways) negates a person’s argument when they criticizing actual socialism (tyranny) or any form of government control over our lives. There is a difference between paying some taxes in order to have a police force and paying ridiculously higher (and higher and higher) taxes in order to support a bloated, ineffective bureaucracy that constantly seeks to expanded itself by taking more and more of our freedoms away.


Actually, LotusSong hit the nail on the head. What's nonsense is the tired old argument that private enterprise always does everything better than government, that the free market solves all problems and socialized anything is a disaster.

Marc2b, you're right that there's a difference between paying some taxes for essential functions and paying too much for bloated, ineffective bureaucracy. However, what the teabaggers and other reactionary right-wing loonies call "having their freedoms taken away" is actually nothing more than not getting everything their way.

Everybody pays taxes. Some of that money goes to things we agree with, some to things we don't. You can't just refuse to pay taxes, or to pay only part of your share, because some of it isn't being spent exactly the way you want. That's just a whiny, little child's attitude.

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 10:23:53 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Asis your reply. Socialism is not tyranny, granted it can be used to establish a tyranny, but so can conservatism, capitalism or any other ism you wish to examine.



In it’s strictest sense Socialism is government ownership and/or management of the means of production and distribution of goods and services. In the more general sense it is increasing government control over the everyday aspects of our lives. Government control over our lives is tyranny. That’s my position and I’m sticking with it.

Where did this inventing new definitions for existing words meme come from? A compelling argument can be made that amongst the western democracies the most socialist ones are the most free. Sweden, Norway and Denmark come to mind as prime examples.

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 10:28:40 PM   
HatesParisHilton


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Status: offline 		"If we can't agree on such simple decencies, how are we going to teach values to our children?"

Before we address that, how are we going to agree on which decent people (such as yourself, or Sanity) could be both entrusted and enticed to spending the time teaching any values at all to any children at all,

when Kanye West serves as an "example" flying in the face of teaching children ANY "values" at all and probably had his pop-culture "anti-values "share-price" go up from his  shenannigans, not down,

while a teacher educating any number of students to write and express themselves as clearly and effectively as you and Sanity both, two men whom put Kanye to shame, will be earning less per month than Kanye earns per day?

What is the INCENTIVE for ANYONE, on either side, for either "would be Conservative" or "would be Liberal", to bother making the sacrifice made by teachers every day?


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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 10:41:21 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Actually, LotusSong hit the nail on the head. What's nonsense is the tired old argument that private enterprise always does everything better than government, that the free market solves all problems and socialized anything is a disaster.

Marc2b, you're right that there's a difference between paying some taxes for essential functions and paying too much for bloated, ineffective bureaucracy. However, what the teabaggers and other reactionary right-wing loonies call "having their freedoms taken away" is actually nothing more than not getting everything their way.

Everybody pays taxes. Some of that money goes to things we agree with, some to things we don't. You can't just refuse to pay taxes, or to pay only part of your share, because some of it isn't being spent exactly the way you want. That's just a whiny, little child's attitude.


They did it first, huh? The fact that the right is doing it is no excuse for the left to do the same - or vice versa. My point is that very few people actually make the argument that private enterprise always does everything better than government (just as very few people make the argument that government always does everything better than private enterprise). Such people are at the extremes and using the extremes to paint a broad brush against an entire spectrum of political thought is a dodge from having to engaging in actual dialogue and debate. It is a way of dismissing out of hand the "oppositions" beliefs, posistions, etc. That way one need not engage in actual debate. It gives us leave to mock the opposistion and feel smugly superior to them.

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 10:53:24 PM   
HatesParisHilton


Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline 		"Where did this inventing new definitions for existing words meme come from?"

The grant writing game, and public radio.

as in gormless and titless Felchtards that just wanted to get "in line" with "hip" lingo to get fast-tracked and short-listed for grant monies, and sucked the cock of popular jargon and "Cant" (versus can't) of turning VERBS into non-existant nouns.

Best example?  (wankerous EMBARRASSMENT to PBS TV voice): "We're suffering a disconnect."

Goddamn WANKERS (or wankettes) know FULL well the noun form is "disconnection".  You suffer a disconnection, you disconnect your iPod from your macbook.

Just like they know that if they use bullcrap terms like this (anyone recall the top forty hit "pro-active", ladies and gentlemen...?) they will curry favour and seem "in" with the "right crowd" and that is part and parcel of both grant monies and funding-streams (such as Screen Australia, formerly AFC and FFC and Film Victoria, et al).

But back to the REAL fun and games...

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 11:03:58 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Where did this inventing new definitions for existing words meme come from?


Probably about five minutes after language was invented. If you can control the definition of words, you can control the debate.

quote:

A compelling argument can be made that amongst the western democracies the most socialist ones are the most free. Sweden, Norway and Denmark come to mind as prime examples.


And an equally compelling argument can be made that they are not. It probably depends on what people's defintion of "freedom" is. It’s not the point as far as I’m concerned. Socialism represents increased government control over people's lives. That’s tyranny.


< Message edited by Marc2b -- 9/21/2009 11:10:27 PM >

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 11:09:14 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		So you've repeatedly asserted but failed to provide any proof.

Was it tyrranical when the federal government forced local schools to admit all students? Is it tyrrany to require that all children receive a basic education? Is it tyrrany to require inductry not pollut ethe air we breathe and the water we drink?

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RE: The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge - 9/21/2009 11:18:29 PM   
HatesParisHilton


Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline 		btw, semiotics are in general word related, whereas "memes" are most often more physical (classic example of memes:  the beads we wore to signify social status and our place in clan hierarchies in our tribes back in the Hunterer/Gatherer days; semiotics - according to Umberto Eco, world reknowned semiotician - being more along the lines of choosing specific words in specific fonts and in specific colours on a Newspaper page to have one effect, versus the same message having an different effect if different adjectives, fonts, Kerning, sidebar-illustrations etc. were used instead).

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