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Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 11:18:42 AM

FirmhandKY

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Friday, September 18, 2009
Obama: Legalize illegals to get them health care
By Stephen Dinan

President Obama said this week that his health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage.

...

"Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don't simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken," Mr. Obama said Wednesday evening in a speech to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute. "That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else.

...

"It is ironic that the president told the American people that illegal immigrants should not be covered by the health care bill, but now just days later he's talking about letting them in the back door," said Rep. Lamar Smith of Texas, the top Republican on the Judiciary Committee.

***

Of course, maybe you don't believe that this is technically lying ...

You know ... no illegal immigrants will be given health coverage - because we'll simply do away with the "illegal" part of the classification!

Firm

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 11:31:06 AM

mnottertail

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There is a gap in the actual rhetoric you are trying to bridge that does not support the conclusion that he will see that illegals get healthcare.

He has said no such thing, or done it. You are inserting words and thoughts in his mouth, and would vehemently feign righteous indignation should someone do that to a conservative.

Ron

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 11:50:34 AM

Louve00

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Matter of fact, I think I agree that making illegals legal is the way to go. They'll have their health coverage, yes (if we ever do work that out), and they'll also be contributing to our society like all the other legals (US citizens) do. I think thats fair. My ancestors came from Poland. I'm glad they were given the opportunity to become.......legal.

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 11:52:06 AM

Arpig

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All the quotes of Obama specifically say he is referring to legal immigrants. The only time illegal immigrants appear in any of the quotes is one where he says the issue has to be resolved once and for all....surely you don't agree with that?

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 12:37:33 PM

mefisto69

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instead of spewing bull shit, get on the horn to all your elected officials and Demand that they impose a 25% tax on ALL MONIES being wired out of the US starting with a $75 transfer - limited to 2 per person per day. You'll see how fast the illegals run for cover.
Mean - wrong? No. It's a bit lower than the average American pays in combined taxes. That windfall should stay in the communities it will be reaped from and be divided up between schools and hospitals. ( check cashing establishments and banks are the culprits)

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 12:49:31 PM

cadenas

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Ummm... You do realize that this means that every time a tanker from Saudi Arabia unloads oil, there will be a 25% tax? Anything we import is paid for with, guess what - wire transfers. Every time an airliner lands on a US airport bringing tourists (and their dollars), there are international wires involved to pay for anything from spare parts to data processing fees.

Add to that the fact that the amount of money being wired into and out of the USA for investment purposes is truly staggering.

What would really happen if we imposed such a tax? The same thing that happens to developing countries that tried similar strategies to keep money in their borders: people find ways around it, and in the end actually more money leaves the country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mefisto69

instead of spewing bull shit, get on the horn to all your elected officials and Demand that they impose a 25% tax on ALL MONIES being wired out of the US starting with a $75 transfer - limited to 2 per person per day. You'll see how fast the illegals run for cover.
Mean - wrong? No. It's a bit lower than the average American pays in combined taxes. That windfall should stay in the communities it will be reaped from and be divided up between schools and hospitals. ( check cashing establishments and banks are the culprits)

(in reply to mefisto69)

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 12:53:09 PM

cadenas

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Just to clarify: legal immigrants are, by definition, NOT US citizens. I think you didn't mean it that way, but it's a pretty common misconception that legal immigrants somehow magically become US citizens.

And I completely agree with you. Over the last 30 years, we have made it darn near impossible to immigrate legally. Odds are that under today's laws, your ancestors would no longer be allowed to come to the USA legally. So, yes, you are right, making illegals legal is the way to go - and after that, keeping the legal door open to prevent this from happening again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

Matter of fact, I think I agree that making illegals legal is the way to go. They'll have their health coverage, yes (if we ever do work that out), and they'll also be contributing to our society like all the other legals (US citizens) do. I think thats fair. My ancestors came from Poland. I'm glad they were given the opportunity to become.......legal.

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 1:04:26 PM

mnottertail

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Ja, even in this economy I don't see entire families of good ol' american, lilly white, wal-mart republicans out chopping cabbages, to earn the daily loaf.........so, while I am for legalizing some immigration, I want them to do the whole shebang, and not rewarding illegals by making them legal by fiat. reform, not absolution.

Ron

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 2:46:27 PM

SpinnerofTales

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By all means let's get all bent out of shape by the idea of immigration reforem. With any luck, the protests can do to this effort what it did in getting the single payer option out of the health care bill. Then we can all end up with another peice of legislation that has been castrated before it could do any good.

Let's hear it for the "He's going to make all the illegals legal" crowd!

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 5:07:10 PM

mefisto69

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cadenas...... last year the GAO reported that 80 billion $ had been wired to south america tax free by from our illegal population. the snowball effect collecting on that would be lower property taxes for education services and a portion of that money sent directly to hospitals to cover all the free health care the illegals receive and down the line lower individual (american) health care costs - because - the first thing they learn when they get here is how to get over. they go to hospitals with fake ID and pay nothing. enroll their children in public schools and share none of the tax burden - they get free medicines and necessary health care for their children because they just won't pay. everyone eats it because they don't pay. I have first hand knowledge becasue 1 - i'm hispanic and speak to these folks and 2 - i've taught ESL for 6 years, which they also get for free, and through conversation have learned that 90% of them have no interest in becoming citizens or accepting north american cultural values.

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 5:48:11 PM

FatDomDaddy

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Ya know... I have wondered about this... why is there not a hefty tax on money wire transfers outside the United States?

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 8:23:06 PM

Arpig

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I have always wondered what the opponents of an amnesty propose be done about the problem. You can't just round them up and ship them home, there isn't enough law enforcement types or the infrastructure to do it, I mean there's some 12 million or so of them by some claims. Where are you going to put them all while you wait for seats on planes to send them home?And what do you do about their children who were born in the US...they are citizens are they not? Do they get deported along with their parents? What about their civil rights, among which surely is the right to live in the US? And what about the huge bureaucracy that will have to be established to investigate each case to determine the legal status of each prospective deportee? And what about the rights of those who will be swept up by accident...legal residents, hispanics whose families have lived in the south west since before it was part of the US...how many of them carry proof of citizenship? Do you really want the INS to have the power to demand that anybody they want having to show their "papers"? If you think the Patriot Act was the underpinning of a police state you ain't seen nothing yet...once they start rounding up illegals, then every single one of you had better make sure you have your proof of citizenship on you at all times, and be ready to produce it on demand to prove you have a right to be in the US.

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 8:51:15 PM

Sanity

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They could be pressured to leave on their own. We could enforce stiff fines and jail time for anyone who hires them.

Amnesty doesn't solve the problem, it only encourages more illegals to risk everything to come in.

Edited to add, everyone here has to have papers as it is.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 9/22/2009 9:00:47 PM >

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 8:51:23 PM

MarsBonfire

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Yeah... how DARE Obama suggest we create a "path to citizenship" for the 12,000,000 illegal immagrants in this country. To make them legal, and thus have taxable incomes, be a part of our legal system, and to be able to contribute by joining the military, or being able to enter the mainstream economy?

Yup. How DARE he!

(whispers from off screen)
What? It was something Bush proposed and pushed for? Really?
(whispers)
Well crap!

Still, how DARE he! Grrrrrrr.....!

(in reply to Arpig)

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/22/2009 10:09:05 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

Yup. How DARE he!
ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Let's face it, Mars. There are some people who won't be happy unless the only answer given to the problem of 12,000,000 illegal immigrants starts with "We get a biiiiiiiiig bus......"

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/23/2009 4:39:55 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

Yup. How DARE he!
ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Let's face it, Mars. There are some people who won't be happy unless the only answer given to the problem of 12,000,000 illegal immigrants starts with "We get a biiiiiiiiig bus......"

No, the first step is in controlling the borders, as the federal government is required to do by law.

Immigration has always been a major source of strength to the US. I don't think that should change. I also believe that there is something to be said for "cultural hybrid vigor".

But, just as normal maturation of the human body, and cancer are two different aspects of "growth", I think that immigration can also be destructive to the society as a whole.

The hard part is certainly what to do with the millions of people who are here illegally. I just have zero faith that giving them all citizenship, or any type of mass conversion to legal status, without a definitive and workable method to control future illegal immigration will be beneficial to our nation as a whole.

In fact, it would do nothing more than accelerate the illegal immigration process, the antithesis of what I wish to see, and think is required.

Firm

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/23/2009 5:58:34 AM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

No, the first step is in controlling the borders, as the federal government is required to do by law.

Immigration has always been a major source of strength to the US. I don't think that should change. I also believe that there is something to be said for "cultural hybrid vigor".

But, just as normal maturation of the human body, and cancer are two different aspects of "growth", I think that immigration can also be destructive to the society as a whole.

The hard part is certainly what to do with the millions of people who are here illegally. I just have zero faith that giving them all citizenship, or any type of mass conversion to legal status, without a definitive and workable method to control future illegal immigration will be beneficial to our nation as a whole.

In fact, it would do nothing more than accelerate the illegal immigration process, the antithesis of what I wish to see, and think is required.

Firm

I don't disagree. What I am hoping for is that both aspects of the problem, both the current illegal immigrants in the country and the control of our borders are what is being addressed by "fixing the immigration mess". What I fear is that, those who will have the kneejerk reaction that we can fix this mess by some how getting rid of these 12,000,000 or so illegals will make a real solution more difficult if not impossible. We have to keep our eyes on both sides of the spectrum on this one.

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/23/2009 6:16:06 AM

Archer

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“This amnesty will give citizenship to only 1.1 to 1.3 million illegal aliens. We will secure the borders henceforth. We will never again bring forward another amnesty bill like this.”

Ted Kennedy 1986

Oh and Mars, the bill you talk about as being what Bush asked for on immigration was written by Guess who?

Ted Kennedy 2007

So never again in Ted Kennedy's mind seems to have meant 20 years or so.

20 years later and 14 times the number of illegal aliens.So forgive me if I don't buy the This time will be the last time, and it will handle the problem once and for all line.

Biiiiiig Bus? nope but how about repatriation and lose eligablity to apply for legal status for 4 or 5 years. (Back of the line buddy, I seam to remember that proposal being put forth during the campaign by, now who was that again? Oh yeah Obama ) How about we change the anchor baby law to reflect the model held by those oh so advanced europeans.

Edited to add:

Or how about we make it a one for one thing, we will allow one legal immigration from the country for every illegal we deport back to that country.

< Message edited by Archer -- 9/23/2009 6:19:23 AM >

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/23/2009 7:05:02 AM

Arpig

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The problem with deportatiom, Archer, is that the US doesn't have the capability to round up and deport 12 million odd people. There's just to damned many of them and there aren't enough law enforcement personel or internment facilities for them all. Also changing the "anchor baby" law has a few problems...first its in the Constitution, so it would require an amendment, and even if that were done it wouldn't apply to anybody born prior to the amendment, since one cannot pass a retroactive law to strip those children of their citizenship.
There is also the problem of controlling your borders...they are so very long, and much of the border is in uninhabited areas. The Canada/US border is for all practical purposes undefendable...there's just too many miles of empty space through which the border runs (about 4000 miles, not including some 1500 miles between Canada & Alaska). The border with Mexico is also pretty much unsealable...unless you seriously propose an 2000 mile long iron curtain style wall, but people will just go over it so it will need to be constantly patrolled, requiring a huge increase in the Border Patrol.
So the facts are as follows: There are too many of them to get rid of, you don't have, and cannot afford, the capabilities, and there is no way to stop more of them coming into the US, again you don't have, and cannot afford, the capabilities....there's no real viable solution top this one, you can't get rid of those already in the US and you can't stop more of them from coming...a no-win.
When you look at it in the light of the realities, then an amnesty and a drastic loosening of the immigration rules seems to be the only reasonable solution...anything else is just a pipe dream.

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RE: Looks Like Joe Wilson was right ... - 9/23/2009 7:34:45 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

When you look at it in the light of the realities, then an amnesty and a drastic loosening of the immigration rules seems to be the only reasonable solution...anything else is just a pipe dream.

I disagree completely Arpig.

Prosecute the employers, with heavy, million dollar fines and arrest the owner/operators and the illegals will leave on their own. Amnesty rewards the criminals, employers and the illegals, at the expense of every person in the world attempting to get her legally obeying all the laws and following the proper procedures.

Rewarding failure is one thing; rewarding criminals is another.

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Post #: 20

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