RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (Full Version)

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IronBear -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 10:48:15 AM)

Every group known to man kind will probably be made up of "The Good", "The Bad" and "The Ugly". Most people will fall into one or more of those catagories....... Us Grizzlies along with other members of the Bear Family are just plain Cuddly. Large mind you but cuddly when we hibernate....




Sensualips -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 11:34:19 AM)

When trotting out the elitisms, don't forget the relationships are deeper and so the break ups are so much harder to bear.

That people are more respectful.

And that we should be sure to police ourself and narc out anyone that might not meet these high standards, in the interest of protecting the community.





pollux -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 11:45:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Don't worry, your own depravity is only just beginning. Your absolute corruption is just around the bend. The unstoppable forces have you in their potent grasp.


God I hope so. [:D]




ProtagonistLily -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 11:47:23 AM)

quote:

The sender went on to discuss how our community is based on trust. While I understand that many trust the community to keep a level of anonymity, I fail to agree with the stance that puts us on a higher level of morality and values than others.


I'm with you on this one. We aren't any differant, are any more special, or more honest, or more trustworthy, or (insert characteristic of your choice here) than any other group. We are just people, and there are good people, there are bad people and there are really bad people.

Though an unfortunate situation with the toy thief, it's not unheard of. We of the kink, are not some bastion of 'goody-two-shoesness' more than any other group of like minded folks are. Shit happens, and frequently, that shit hurts other people.

While we advocate and hope that our relationships are based on trust and all the nice things we want, the community as a whole has never stood up universally to these tennents. No group ever will.

The problem is, any group will try to elevate themselves in a social pecking order that is probably much farther from the reality than anyone wants to discuss in polite conversation.

So, again, I agree wholeheartedly that we are not 'special', we are not 'chosen' and we are not better than other people. The differance is, whips and chains excite us. That does not mean we hold the banner on "Good". (Though it doesn't mean we hold the banner on bad, it just means it takes all kinds...)

Kassie




slavejali -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 1:08:05 PM)

Good qualities are an individual thing and dont belong to one particular group. I think thats part of the problem with organised religion, the group is seen as supposedly good and everyone else is wrong or less good, when in fact , "the good, the bad and the ugly" lay within it. (To quote IronBear) must be an aussie thing lol




RiotGirl -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 1:14:02 PM)

ppl are ppl everywhere




IronBear -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 1:44:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

Good qualities are an individual thing and dont belong to one particular group. I think thats part of the problem with organised religion, the group is seen as supposedly good and everyone else is wrong or less good, when in fact , "the good, the bad and the ugly" lay within it. (To quote IronBear) must be an aussie thing lol


G'day True Blue....




PenelopePitstop -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 4:21:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress

There seems to be people in our community that place us kinksters on a pedastal in the moral/ethical fields. I continually read/hear people talking about how they place more trust in their BDSM lifestyle friends and family than their vanilla friends and family. I have read posts and heard people talk about how we have a deeper level of trust in our relationships, a stronger bond, more commitment to making it work, etc.

We are such a diverse community so varied in socio-economic status, creed, race, sexual identity, religion or lack thereof. We have little organization on the local level and none on the global. My belief is we are simply tied together by the fact that we are considered sexually deviant. And even the terms that we use to identify ourselves vary greatly from person to person.

I don't understand anyone making such generalized assumptions. I do understand that some people have the need to place a higher value system on those that they feel kinship with. My own example of having experienced this way of thinking follows.


The morning after a play party I was unpacking my toybag. I didn't have my favorite flogger. I either left it behind or it got packed up in someone else's bag by mistake, no big deal. I called the party host, she checked her dungeon and the rest of the house, no flogger. I sent an email to each and every person that had attended the party requesting that they please check their toybags as my flogger must have been inadvertently picked up.

I received emails back saying that they either checked their toybags and found nothing additional, or that they too were missing a toy. For a week emails going out and coming in asking about the missing toys and no forward progress. Someone finally came to the conclusion that the toys had been stolen and voiced it via email.

The next set of emails discussed allowing the theif to mail the toys back with no return address, a drop spot, etc...

These emails were followed by a torrent of emails expressing betrayal, forgiveness, the willingness to sacrifice a toy for a friendship, and on and on it went. Until one email stated that the sender felt particularly betrayed because this "happened in our community" and that he "trusted us more than vanillas".

The sender went on to discuss how our community is based on trust. While I understand that many trust the community to keep a level of anonymity, I fail to agree with the stance that puts us on a higher level of morality and values than others.

Your thoughts?



Ah trust: that old chestnut. I don't think trustworthiness is a 'simple' an all-in-one characteristic, it all depends what facet of a person we are talking about, for example, I trust my sister to be there for me emotionally, but I don't trust her to water my plants while I'm away. I trust my friend never to spill my secrets, yet may not trust her with my man. To trust someone I think you have to define which part of their inevitably flawed personality you are willing to stake a bet on, and to do that you have to know them moderately well.

So in this instance, I guess the people who put such great store in the trustworthiness of those in alternate lifestyle such as this are those who hook on to the openness that people express and assume that this is representative of everything?




Cloudz -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 4:32:56 PM)

quote:

any group you find yourself in is a cross-section of humanity, and given to the same WONDERFUL traits that run the gambit from angelic to demonic. I am thrilled to be a part of it all :) and I am always in good company wherever I go.


Wonderfully stated!




IronBear -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 5:06:38 PM)

In reality, and human nature being what it is, no label can be devised which states equivocally that those wearing it are trustworthy , untrustworthy, safe, unsafe, honest, dishonest, etc etc etc. Labels only state that the wearer is part of an organization / lifestyle, profession, has a specific social status, professional status or ethnic/cultural/colour skin or background.

We hope that those who are in charge of our group etc are trust worthy or at least honest. Sadly we find that as often or not they are not. The human race is incontrovertibly a mix of the good, the bad and the ugly of various combinations and degrees. Rather than saying that because some one must ne trustworthy because his label says he should be, we must take a step back and yet forward and rely on our own senses to assess each individual person. Thus if we are wrong, it is we who have made an error of judgment which is part of our learning experience. We are drawn to some people not because of their labels, which may have alerted us to their presence as first, but because of a deeper, a primal attraction. This may be of a carnal nature or a spiritual one or.. A mix of the two. By and large we set ourselves up for failure and hurt because we will not follow our gut feelings. Conversely, those of us who are edge players in the emotional rollercoaster of life, feel more, feel stronger, experience the highs and lows more graphically and yet, we often develop instinctively, greater relationships with a wider and more diverse group of people…. By the Gods, Life Is Worth Living.. The Upside and The Down Side.!

(Here endeth the lesson ~ Bear Sermon 257004)




theRose4U -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 5:42:14 PM)

quote:

Because my sexuality is tied to my BDSM I do know that a failed kinky relationship seems to hurt me a lot more and that hurt lasts longer than strictly vanilla failures


I agree with this wholeheartedly. I on the other hand am MORE suspicious and careful with BDSM people that I meet in person locally. I hate the idea that someone that would want to hurt me professionally would use information about my kinky nature to that end.
Those that I have confided my Domme nature to, look at me like...well DUH. But those with grudges especially because I work almost exclusively with men would have absolutely no issue with blackmail.

As for the OP I'm sorry that you lost your favorite flogger. I like to hand make mine so losing one would be heartbreaking even if it hadn't been used to create some loving memories. The one thing that I've learned about theves though...they tend to be stupid and eventually will forget about who they took something from and will produce the item either for sale or in public. Just wait... karma's a bitch. If it was a small group I would look at the person that didn't have anything taken that's expressing the greatest amount of outrage...me thinks thou dost protest too much.




Misstoyou -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 5:49:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sensualips

When trotting out the elitisms, don't forget the relationships are deeper and so the break ups are so much harder to bear.

That people are more respectful.

And that we should be sure to police ourself and narc out anyone that might not meet these high standards, in the interest of protecting the community.




Uh huh. And these threads are always along side the ones complaining about fakes, wankers, wannabes, abusers, and the impolite. [:D]




dincubus -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 6:46:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fergus

People are people are people are people.

any group you find yourself in is a cross-section of humanity, and given to the same WONDERFUL traits that run the gambit from angelic to demonic. I am thrilled to be a part of it all :) and I am always in good company wherever I go.

Even when I am by myself, all of these tremendous things that make up so glorious an animal as a "human" are within me.

A note about pedastals. When ever you put someone (or some group) on a pedastal it is a dehumanizing experience. It strips them of their individuality and human dignity and turns them into an ideal. YOu never understand the person (or people) involved and are constantly trying to get them to live up to the picture in your mind of what they SHOULD be.

It is a control game, and not one I like to play in my kinky control games ;)

fergus


So very true fergus. no matter where you go, or what you do, you will come across people of every flavor. the only one you can trust is yourself, completely i mean. and for the pedastal, well while it could be a dehumanizing experiece, it can be slightly warping of th eperson or group and it can make one work harder to keep the person or group there. you could end up tiring yourself out to make the image what you see.




Vendaval -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 6:55:39 PM)

When calculating for human behavior; never omit the idiot factor.

-Vendaval-




ShadeDiva -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 7:15:47 PM)

I trust no one that has earned it. Period.

Doesn't matter who they are or what they do. lol.

The best thieves never make a blip on the radar after all.




ShadeDiva -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 7:17:12 PM)

Er that should have read - I trust no one that *hasn't* earned it.




ownedgirlie -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 10:31:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sensualips

When trotting out the elitisms, don't forget the relationships are deeper and so the break ups are so much harder to bear.

That people are more respectful.

And that we should be sure to police ourself and narc out anyone that might not meet these high standards, in the interest of protecting the community.




Okay so i am elite. i am elite because in my curent relationship i trust more deeply than i have ever trusted. Because i love more deeply than i have known possible. Because i have given everything about myself over to another human being, who has the power to break me if he so chooses. No, not just break my heart...but break everything.

Yes, i would say that's a deeper relationship than any vanilla i have had.

And yes, if i see someone abusing the vulnerability of another under the guise of dominance, it tends to piss me off.

Now...do i trust the community as a whole more so than others? No, i don't. Nor do i trust individuals until they have proven to be trustworthy - in any community.

So, call me elite if you wish. Laugh if you wish. But that is my truth.




IronBear -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 11:21:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sensualips

When trotting out the elitisms, don't forget the relationships are deeper and so the break ups are so much harder to bear.

That people are more respectful.

And that we should be sure to police ourself and narc out anyone that might not meet these high standards, in the interest of protecting the community.




Okay so i am elite. i am elite because in my curent relationship i trust more deeply than i have ever trusted. Because i love more deeply than i have known possible. Because i have given everything about myself over to another human being, who has the power to break me if he so chooses. No, not just break my heart...but break everything.

Yes, i would say that's a deeper relationship than any vanilla i have had.

And yes, if i see someone abusing the vulnerability of another under the guise of dominance, it tends to piss me off.

Now...do i trust the community as a whole more so than others? No, i don't. Nor do i trust individuals until they have proven to be trustworthy - in any community.

So, call me elite if you wish. Laugh if you wish. But that is my truth.


Let none mock or laugh at you lass for you gave told us the incontrovertable and simple truth wich is yours and yours alone. Yes you are elite and you and your truth is unique. I will stand and defend your truth lass for it is true for you..




ownedgirlie -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/1/2006 11:28:13 PM)

Thank you, IronBear. There's no cute emoticon for a kiss on the cheek....but here: "mwaa" Your post was dear.




Bunkerchief -> RE: Kinky equals Trustworthy? (3/2/2006 3:19:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux


As a relative newbie, I have to confess to holding the opposite view.

It's been my experience in my brief time that there's more hurt and distrust and dishonesty and lack of integrity and flat out anti-social behavior in the scene than in the vanilla world.

I hate to say that, but it has been my experience. I'm hoping that as I meet more people and "get out" a bit more, that I'm able to reverse or balance that perception.

I do believe that well-adjusted, healthy kinksters can have a more well-developed understanding of their sexuality (and we've had threads about that), but in terms of ethics? I think the scene is worse, frankly.


I have to agree with your sentiments. I was introduced to BDSM by this woman and since she played such a evil trick on me for no apparent reason I've been exploring the scene for the last two years and find that much is talked about honesty, trust, integrity and ethics but there is very little evidence of any of it being internalised and practised. But then we are talking about a world of sexual obsession and such a world by its nature will inevitably shallow and nasty. However, I don't agree with you that kinksters have a better understanding of their sexuality than vanilla people, I think they just think they do. It's the same with dominance, many people think they are dominant but mistake their belief in their own rightness as somehow being dominant when it is really a conceit that leads to bullying and a perception of the world totally without reflection. The amount of times I've sat in a munch and listened to pompous prats so convinced of their own opinions that have no foundation I've wanted to guffaw and play back their diatribe to them. Because of this attitude I think there is definitely more people on the scene that have had their heads fucked than out of the scene from my experience but maybe there are many reasons for that.




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