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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/23/2009 3:47:48 PM

kiwisub12

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The only right time to step in is when they ask for your advice. Otherwise, you can give your take on a situation - which will probably be ignore, and resented, and hang around to help with damage control.

Of course with kids, it is very hard to bit your tongue.

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/23/2009 4:13:49 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

In my opinion, since it's a fully grown individual - his friends/family should handle it but not strangers 'cause frankly it's none of our business, and fully grown individuals should be able to take responsibility for their actions and learn from their mistakes.
How will they ever learn if they aren't allowed to make their mistakes?

I'm even more extreme on this than the OP -- my feeling is that if they are fully competent adults, even friends and family should keep their noses out of it once they've had that brief conversation where they learn that whatever choice is being made is being made consciously and without coercion, and is their friend/family member's free will.

I believe that we have a responsibility to protect our offspring from their mistakes without hindering their growth, but once they reach adulthood, or if we are dealing with other adults, we need to mind our own business unless they approach us seeking help.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 9/23/2009 4:14:59 PM >

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/23/2009 4:23:20 PM

Elipsis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly

Taken from my journal and edited a bit since some people felt it should belong to the boards.

If a fully grown individual is not handicapped, mentally nor physically. Should we still protect that individual in spite of not knowing him, or does "his life, his responsibility" apply to this case?

I'm not talking about not helping a person in need to prevent an accident nor am I talking about not helping them if they ask.

I'm talking about stop protecting fully grown individuals from something that they feel is normal but may have negative consequences in the future, but that what appears normal to them.. you would expect the average John Doe to realize that it aint normal/safe in the long run...something like fucking a person with STD (without any protection) when they already know that they have STD (bad example I know but I couldn't find any better, sorry if it offends somebody.)

In my opinion, since it's a fully grown individual - his friends/family should handle it but not strangers 'cause frankly it's none of our business, and fully grown individuals should be able to take responsibility for their actions and learn from their mistakes.
How will they ever learn if they aren't allowed to make their mistakes?

I'm not a nice enough person to stop idiots from hurting themselves.

Only for someone very close to me will I do anything but smile and watch them destroy themselves.

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/23/2009 5:55:42 PM

slaveluci

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I'm even more extreme on this than the OP -- my feeling is that if they are fully competent adults, even friends and family should keep their noses out of it once they've had that brief conversation where they learn that whatever choice is being made is being made consciously and without coercion, and is their friend/family member's free will.

Dame Calla, you beat me to it. I totally agree. Just because you are a friend or family member doesn't give you the right to butt in uninvited either. Actually, aren't those folks the worst at thinking they have the right and responsibility to do so? Those closest to you? It's not justified then either. I don't get any joy from seeing anyone - pal, relative or stranger - make what I consider terrible mistakes. However, I don't sit myself on some "Oh Wise One" pedestal and declare it my right to tell them what they SHOULD do. Chiming in with an honest opinion when asked is cool. Nagging and dictating is not, no matter the relation.............luci

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/23/2009 8:21:39 PM

littlewonder

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I will give a full grown adult my best advice, my suggestions, my views and thoughts but I won't try to stop them even if it's my child or family.

I'm of the belief that most people are going to do what they want anyway and need to learn from their own mistakes.

For all I know maybe they know something I don't or they're better at running their own life than what I assumed.

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/23/2009 11:15:46 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

In my opinion, since it's a fully grown individual - his friends/family should handle it but not strangers 'cause frankly it's none of our business, and fully grown individuals should be able to take responsibility for their actions and learn from their mistakes.

The catch, of course, being that most people intercede when/because they feel the individual has forfeited their "fully grown" status by making a potentially inane decision, at which point the interceder's assured self-conviction steps in.

But, agreed, yes.

10 points.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 9/23/2009 11:16:01 PM >

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/24/2009 6:14:20 AM

MsFlutter

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Recent scientific studies indicate that individuals with a deficit of neuron receptors lack the ability to learn from their mistakes. Perhaps the 2x4 idea isnt so bad. If they spend their time in the ER, they arent out putting the general population at risk :)

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/24/2009 7:30:04 AM

Rule

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Some people are what I call 'nulls'. All aspects of their minds are essentially immature, even when adult. They are not capable of being responsible; they are in debt and doing stupid things. Nevertheless such people do have a function in the gene pool. Though not crazy, many of them are locked into mental institutions, whereas others of them may be leading psychiatrists in such institutions. I suspect such people need a protector and handler.

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/24/2009 7:42:48 AM

looking4princess

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quote:

I am big on helping those I am close to...that is what I was taught to do. I try to be helpful to those I don't know. But at a certain point, this whole "for the good of society" rules and regulations crap that ends up costing me in the form of taxes to help those who just can't seem to stop falling down...no offense, clumsy (grins and winks)...gets to be too much.

I understand and sympathize with your libertarianism. However, i wonder if we don't have to consider the nature of the "falling down" and what the impact of it is and how widespread the impact on the social compact. For example, the estimate is that we pay $1000 extra in Medical insurance for the "stumblers" who show up in Medical Emergency Rooms. So in the end we pay a "tax" whether obvious or hidden.

I also note the issue raised of when does the behavior no longer render the stumbler as adult and competent.

A final issue i wish to interject, and i do so with a respectful nod to those of you who say the other fellow's folly is none of our business and who gave us the authority to intervene anyway, but do we have a duty (big word) to be our brother's keeper? Boy! I do not have an answer for that. Maybe it depends on the nature of the battlefield.

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/24/2009 8:01:55 AM

Andalusite

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On the STD issue, I think it makes a huge difference whether it is likely to be deadly or have serious health risks, like HIV or hepatitis, or one like herpes or warts strains of Human Papilloma Virus, which are unpleasant. Even with the more serious ones, though, I don't see how you could "stop" them if they were determined to take that action. What are you going to do, follow them around with a condom, and force it on him any time he tries to have sex? I have talked with friends about things they're doing that I'm concerned about, but usually they initiate it.

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/24/2009 8:24:04 AM

CarrieO

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quote:

A final issue i wish to interject, and i do so with a respectful nod to those of you who say the other fellow's folly is none of our business and who gave us the authority to intervene anyway, but do we have a duty (big word) to be our brother's keeper? Boy! I do not have an answer for that. Maybe it depends on the nature of the battlefield.

The STD issue is a good example of when its approprite to step in and when its not. I have a very good friend who, after abstaining for 3 yrs. since a divorce, has decided to become involved sexually with a man. She brought this up to me in a phone call this morning. She asked me what other options, besides condoms, she should consider for birth control. My respones was to ask her would she be using condoms along with another form of BC or just BC. She explained to me that she felt condoms were unreliable to which I agreed ( she has 3 little examples of what happens when you use only condoms as BC running around the house already).
To my knowledge, she has just met this man in the past couple of weeks and when I asked if she had given any thought to STD's and condom usage, she said he had already told her he was 'clean'.

Is it my responsibility to force her to show concern for her own health? Is it my place to 'educate' her on STD's (which, thanks to her ex, she has experience with)? Is it my place to suggest she give a bit more thought to the consequences of her choices and a little less to her raging libido? At what point do you step back and say "You're an adult, do what you think is right".

You're right...it does depend on the battlefield, to an extent, I guess. Or does it depend on whether or not you choose to even approach the battlefield. I'll be thinking about this one today, that's for sure.

edited to add....In the end, I will handle this situation as a friend. I love my friend and I support her wish to be happy. I don't, however, enable.

< Message edited by CarrieO -- 9/24/2009 8:26:52 AM >

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/24/2009 8:24:07 AM

happylittlepet

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FR after read through

Bystander effect can lead to death, sorry, classis example:
http://psychology.about.com/od/socialpsychology/a/bystandereffect.htm

When one of my kids has a class mate who gets kicked out for the night/longer, I rather have he/she sleeps at my house than on the street/at a youth shelter, where they will be exposed to drugs and offers for unsafe sex. And yes, I do realize that those kids are not quite adults yet, and therefore different but

if an adult expresses to me that future behavior is going to carry a risk, how can I not respond without asking him/her how he/she is going to deal with that risk? I don't see that as interfering, as the adult told me about the risk in the first place (a lot of adults/teenagers do not seem to care about the risks too much, they want their cake and eat it too - a person will not ask for help until they have come to realize that they want it).

There are also adults who like to keep bringing up their bad choices, because they want to be validated by me, they want to hear that what they do is ok after all. Too bad, they won't get that from me.

If someone asks for advice, I will ask them what he/she thinks, and go from there. A person is not going to avoid the risky behavior because I say so, but because he/she has made that decision him/herself. Nagging might even lead to the risky behavior becoming more attractive.

I rather get told by someone, whether rudely or politely, that he/she was aware of the risk/issue, and that he/she thinks I said too much, than that someone makes a risky choice out of ignorance/impulsivity, and has to live with the consequences (which can be years/a life time). Of course every instance is different, and there are many things I hear/see that make me wonder, but are so far removed from me that it makes no sense to get involved. And like I wrote earlier, a lot of people do not seem to be bothered with the consequences.

However, it's not up to the 'other' to restrict me in how I live/deal with my conscience. It's me who will have to live with my lack of action/words once something really bad happens that maybe could have been prevented.

How often do we not read in papers/internet that someone was found dead in an apartment after months, if not years, and no one in the neighborhood noticed or cared enough to check out what happened to that person? Our society is so individualistic and so rushed that a lot of people rather want you to tell them you are fine, so that they don't have to bother.

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/24/2009 8:41:53 AM

OrionTheWolf

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~FR~

There is often a fine line between being helpful to someone on a consistant basis, and enabling their stunted mental/emotional growth. At a certain point if people keep helping them, all they learn is that they do not need to learn. Mistakes in life is how life steaches us, and if there are no consequences to those mistakes, then we do not learn the lesson, and we are doomed to keep repeating it.

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RE: Is there ever a right time to stop? - 9/26/2009 6:07:14 AM

bliss4us09

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You can't really stop an adult from doing what they are determined to do. And it is their own responsibility so I wouldn't presume to intervene most of the time. I might make an exception if an irrevocable consequence was likely - say HIV - but that's only hypothetical.

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