RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave

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CelticSubM -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/25/2009 4:44:40 PM)
In a sense, bdsm is all about exploring the boundaries between fantasy and reality. There are a significant number of submissives and would be "slaves" who cherish fantasies of being "forced", of having their wills taken away by a "Master" or "Owner", of being in some real sense slaves. It's much the same situation as regards female rape fantasies. Many women fantasize about being "raped", by a man they fancy, in ways that will be erotic to them. In either case, woe to the man who is so naive or vain as to take such fantasies literally!

ElaineSubmits -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/25/2009 5:18:06 PM)
quote: In a sense, bdsm is all about exploring the boundaries between fantasy and reality. That's an excellent point. It's easy to lose sight of the fact that not all fantasies are going to be realizable. Not everything we can imagine, not everything that turns us on, is going to be possible in real life. We may role play being an Empress or Goddess or slave, or a vampire or werewolf, but nothing is ever going to make us a real one. Of course, most of those fantasies would quickly prove much less exciting in reality than in fantasy anyway. Many submissives fantasize about things like being kept in a cage, or serving as furniture. Those fantasies are readily realizable. When realized, they quickly become very boring.

aldompdx -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/25/2009 5:37:06 PM)
M.E., You make some very salient points. I erred in addressing my entire response to you, when I should have included a delimiter. I read the essence of the original post as, "how can I legally evade the law?" "Every man is presumed to know the law." United States v. Budd, 144 U.S. 154, 163 (1892). "Deliberate ignorance and positive knowledge are equally culpable." United States v. Jewell, 532 F.2d 697, 700 (1976). The question of unlawful agreement or assertion of the unclean hands doctrine would be an affirmative defense, not a condition precedent. I have never seen a U.S. jurisdiction case which was dismissed because the pleader failed to aver lawfulness of agreement. This is more so in a notice pleading jurisdiction. I assumed here for the sake of argument that at this stage in the hypothetical "proceedings," the facts of a claim are presumed true, or a prima facie burden applies. Likewise, whether an agreement is binding or valid does not negate its existence as a contract. Yes, absent the capacity to consent, there may be an agreement (contract), but one of the parties is effectively absent. Thus, although the contract exists, it would not be enforceable upon the absent party. That is why I qualified my first posting with the requirement of "informed consent." Stating one's subjective desire or intent to serve (assuming lawful conduct) is a form of free expression under the 1st amendment. The problem arises when it implies a bargain or constraint imposed by another, in a manner contrary to law -- i.e., conspiracy to act unlawfully. Perhaps you might like to clarify what you see as a problem with declaring that: "It is my desire to perform the activity of [whatever]." Or, "I wish to express honor and love through the act of [whatever]." And, "I feel like doing [whatever]." Such declarations do not touch upon slavery or indentured servitude, and certainly do not imply agreement (contract). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DELIMITER ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Notwithstanding my rare cynical rhetoric, I actually find many of the responses in this thread to responsibly distinguish between reality and fantasy.

ElaineSubmits -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/25/2009 5:53:24 PM)
Here's an interesting legal case from a few years back: http://www.wlky.com/news/1249342/detail.html A couple attempted to register a slave contract with their local county clerk. They were arrested on charges of prostitution and criminal solicitation, on the basis that the contract involved an exchange of sex for material support.

CelticSubM -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/25/2009 6:29:00 PM)
My apologies. I see that I had misread the topic. It's "Legal consequences of owing a slave." I'm not an attorney, but I never heard of anything in law to suggest that debts to a slave would differ legally from any other debts.

mnottertail -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/25/2009 6:41:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aldompdx M.E., You make some very salient points. I erred in addressing my entire response to you, when I should have included a delimiter. I read the essence of the original post as, "how can I legally evade the law?" "Every man is presumed to know the law." United States v. Budd, 144 U.S. 154, 163 (1892). "Deliberate ignorance and positive knowledge are equally culpable." United States v. Jewell, 532 F.2d 697, 700 (1976). The question of unlawful agreement or assertion of the unclean hands doctrine would be an affirmative defense, not a condition precedent. I have never seen a U.S. jurisdiction case which was dismissed because the pleader failed to aver lawfulness of agreement. This is more so in a notice pleading jurisdiction. I assumed here for the sake of argument that at this stage in the hypothetical "proceedings," the facts of a claim are presumed true, or a prima facie burden applies. Likewise, whether an agreement is binding or valid does not negate its existence as a contract. Yes, absent the capacity to consent, there may be an agreement (contract), but one of the parties is effectively absent. Thus, although the contract exists, it would not be enforceable upon the absent party. That is why I qualified my first posting with the requirement of "informed consent." Stating one's subjective desire or intent to serve (assuming lawful conduct) is a form of free expression under the 1st amendment. The problem arises when it implies a bargain or constraint imposed by another, in a manner contrary to law -- i.e., conspiracy to act unlawfully. Perhaps you might like to clarify what you see as a problem with declaring that: "It is my desire to perform the activity of [whatever]." Or, "I wish to express honor and love through the act of [whatever]." And, "I feel like doing [whatever]." Such declarations do not touch upon slavery or indentured servitude, and certainly do not imply agreement (contract). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DELIMITER ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Notwithstanding my rare cynical rhetoric, I actually find many of the responses in this thread to responsibly distinguish between reality and fantasy. I don't give a shit what name you give it, or how much FDS you spray on it, the fuckin' thing stinks. I can declare you are a cocksucker, nothing inheirently or patently illegal about that, you may well be, and you can take me to court and prove you are not (or even make me prove you are) and thats one thing, a civil matter, and it is Monte Hall, who's got a coathanger, I'll give you 200 dollars, lets make a deal...... However; if you can show reasonable evidence that I made you suck a cock against your will, paper signed or no, it is criminal........well all those sentences that you wrote up there that are illogical (prima facie, read the fuckers aloud, one at a time and somebody tell me what he said in coherent fashion)....... Well, just fuckin' nope, ain't gonna be your best day. Ron

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/26/2009 7:32:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aldompdx M.E., You make some very salient points. I erred in addressing my entire response to you, when I should have included a delimiter. I read the essence of the original post as, "how can I legally evade the law?" I don't necessarily see the OP as immediately invoking council for willful blindness to commit a crime, which is what U.S. v. Jewell distills to (avoiding positive knowledge of transporting illegal substances). I believe the OP sincerely wants to know if it's possible to, within the bounds of observing law, protect his culpability through the use of legal instruments, should a hypothetical consensual slave turn and levy charges of abuse. I think every post here has been unanimous in affirming that if the relations involve revocation of rights from a state of slavery and the abuses inherent, the "contract" is not legally enforceable as it is illegal. I think on that we can all agree (I hope). quote: ORIGINAL: aldompdx I have never seen a U.S. jurisdiction case which was dismissed because the pleader failed to aver lawfulness of agreement. I have never heard of a case involving slave contracts where the court did not dismiss the contract as null and void, despite assertions by the defendant the contract should be admitted as evidence of a binding agreement. quote: ORIGINAL: aldompdx Likewise, whether an agreement is binding or valid does not negate its existence as a contract. BDSM "slave" contracts, even if they are worded as such, can be broken any time by either partner with guaranteed 0% legal enforceability. I suppose you could see them as contracts or legal agreements, but it's impossible to assert their legality beyond ignorance, thus making them barely waivers at best, and incriminating sources of evidence at worst. On this I suspect you and I agree once again. quote: ORIGINAL: aldompdx Perhaps you might like to clarify what you see as a problem with declaring that: "It is my desire to perform the activity of [whatever]." Or, "I wish to express honor and love through the act of [whatever]." And, "I feel like doing [whatever]." In that light of additional detail, you're right, but I feel the gamut you're suggesting is just too limited in light of a "slave contract" discussion, which ultimately does concern the dynamics between two parties. That aside, keeping in mind that a declaration of intent is a written and signed instrument detailing one's intention to act in a lawful manner or capacity (or not refrain from acting in a lawful manner or capacity), this limits the scope of possible expressions of "love" or "I'd like to do-isms". For example, I cannot expect a declaration of intent to show my love for another by procuring cocaine or trafficking it to be valid in court. Similarly, a declaration of intent to offer oneself up for abuse / assault out of love for another does not absolve the perpetrator of assault. I cannot make a declaration of intent to show my love through false imprisonment or prostitution. I could go on, but I know you agree with these examples. In that light, I just find the declaration of intent angle to be too limited for the scope of this discussion and the lifestyle interests that surround it. Overall, I see us as more in agreement than disagreement. Either way, thank you for returning to respectful discussion.

CaringandReal -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/26/2009 7:52:15 AM)
What about a durable/irrevokable general power of attorney? It's the only contract/document that I know of that legally grants some of the control that many of us want taken from us.

mnottertail -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/26/2009 7:56:41 AM)
some trivialities yes, but you are in a jam if you act in illegal manner. So, real recently there was some old boy that cleaned out his mothers estate in that manner, and he isn't looking like he is gonna come up with anything that is gonna keep Jessie and his big white friend B'eh'na'd out of his ass. this includes anything that is patently against the law. There is no way out of it. R

ElaineSubmits -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/26/2009 9:05:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal What about a durable/irrevokable general power of attorney? It's the only contract/document that I know of that legally grants some of the control that many of us want taken from us. A power of attorney doesn't give one person power over another. It merely gives that person power to act on behalf of another. An irrevocable power of attorney is theoretically possible. In practice, such a thing is extremely rare, and is always very limited and specific in scope. Courts generally require that the person appointed to act must have an interest in some underlying property, so that if the power were revoked he or she "would be deprived of a substantial right." To give up your free will by an act of free will is as impossible as picking yourself up by your own bootstraps, whether from a legal or philosophical viewpoint.

DarkSteven -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/26/2009 10:29:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits A power of attorney doesn't give one person power over another. It merely gives that person power to act on behalf of another. This is my understanding as well, that a Master is granted permission to act on a slave's behalf but in no way takes away from the slave's own ability to act on his/her own behalf.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/26/2009 10:58:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits To give up your free will by an act of free will is as impossible as picking yourself up by your own bootstraps, whether from a legal or philosophical viewpoint. From a legal standpoint, where this subject is concerned, yes, from a philosophical one where M/s theory is concerned, I would disagree with that broad assertion.

peppermint -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/26/2009 1:53:40 PM)
I'm just remembering a post I read several months ago. Seems that two people had a contract drawn up as Master and slave. The Master then attempted to file the papers legally. Since slavery is illegal, he was arrested and charged with slavery. So, you can draw up all the paperwork you want between a Master and slave. Don't let anyone see the papers or you could land in jail. That's a pretty major consequence.

Lucienne -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/26/2009 2:06:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits A power of attorney doesn't give one person power over another. It merely gives that person power to act on behalf of another. This is my understanding as well, that a Master is granted permission to act on a slave's behalf but in no way takes away from the slave's own ability to act on his/her own behalf. Adding to the confusion, the principal (in this case the slave) was traditionally referred to as the Master and the agent as the slave. Agent is the service position, as you are carrying out the will of the principal and you have legal duties to protect the principal's interests.

Malkinius -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/26/2009 7:47:27 PM)
{Fast Reply} Greetings all.... I went around and around with my lawyer over this topic a couple of years ago. The conclusion was that there was no way in the US to make any sort of slavery contracts legal. That included indentured servant contracts. I then went to an informed consent document. That means that the would be slave has been informed of the things that could happen to or with her and she consents to do them. That might hold up in some courts but might not be allowed as evidence of intent in some. That document was then changed to a confirmation of information document. It simply states that the person agrees that they were informed of everything on the document. That will be allowed as evidence and hold up in court as prior information. It is not a contract. It does not lay out rules for a slave. It only says that if you agree to become involved with this person that during training certain things can or will happen. It only includes general topics rather than a lot of specific things because the lawyer said that general items a reasonable person would understand included variants and similar things to those mentioned as specifics or examples. Also, no document would be expected to list every possible thing that could happen. All it can do is prevent someone from saying that they didn't know certain things or types of things could happen to or with them and no laws are broken because informing someone of things which can be done voluntarily but not legally contracted is legal. I also use it as a teaching tool so it has multiple purposes for me. Be well.... Malkinius

marie2 -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/26/2009 10:24:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Relax79 Hello, Owning a slave can be difficult in some countries. The question is what kind of contracts have you made with your slave to avoid legal problems. And in case the slave accuse you of mistreating them, what can be done towards this. Relax I don't think any type of "contract" is going to protect the "owner" if push came to shove in a court of law. Therefore, if I were in the position of owner, and was inclined to make some type of contract in order to protect myself from legal consequences, I definitely wouldn't attempt to have the "slave" consent to slavery. Instead, I would go in the opposite direction and make sure the contract stated that the "slave" is clear that he/she is only roleplaying (for the sake of mutual entertainment or whatever) and is free to leave at any time and that this is not an actual attempt to own a slave. Not sure if that would even get someone off the hook in a court of law, but at least it would be less incriminating than an agreement that shows the intent to actually own a slave.

DesFIP -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/27/2009 5:22:13 AM)
People in good relationships don't mistreat each other and therefore don't accuse each other of mistreatment. Basically, these are still relationships and both people's needs must be met. And consent withdrawn means you've got problems maintaining a healthy relationship.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/27/2009 7:49:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marie2 quote: ORIGINAL: Relax79 Hello, Owning a slave can be difficult in some countries. The question is what kind of contracts have you made with your slave to avoid legal problems. And in case the slave accuse you of mistreating them, what can be done towards this. Relax I don't think any type of "contract" is going to protect the "owner" if push came to shove in a court of law. Therefore, if I were in the position of owner, and was inclined to make some type of contract in order to protect myself from legal consequences, I definitely wouldn't attempt to have the "slave" consent to slavery. Instead, I would go in the opposite direction and make sure the contract stated that the "slave" is clear that he/she is only roleplaying (for the sake of mutual entertainment or whatever) and is free to leave at any time and that this is not an actual attempt to own a slave. Not sure if that would even get someone off the hook in a court of law, but at least it would be less incriminating than an agreement that shows the intent to actually own a slave. Good thoughts, Marie. Creating a document more as a non-incriminating waiver—centered around legal acts, still, of course—rather than a binding contract is a better idea. If this means naming your document in such a way as to not be confused with a binding contract, I'm all for it. But as you point out, how useful it would be in a court of law is still questionable. It could theoretically be useful as evidence to the positive for the sake of the probable defendant, but against evidence of illegal activities, which would in all probability be the focus of the trial, might not absolve much. One thing is for sure—whatever document is created should not be written as or thought of as a binding contract or a legal document whatsoever. It really should be there for private use only, and "covering one's ass", so to speak, should be addressed more holistically.

kyraofMists -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/27/2009 8:34:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits A power of attorney doesn't give one person power over another. It merely gives that person power to act on behalf of another. To add to this, I do not know about the US, but here in Canada we have a Power of Attorney and a Personal Directive (medical power of attorney), so that he can act on my behalf. The limit to this is that he can only act on my behalf when I am incapable of doing so myself and I can only be declared incapable of acting on my own behalf by two doctors. Knight's Kyra

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Legal consequences of owing a slave (9/27/2009 9:17:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP People in good relationships don't mistreat each other and therefore don't accuse each other of mistreatment. And consent withdrawn means you've got problems maintaining a healthy relationship. On the surface, this is a very reasonable thing to say, and in general I agree with it. The gray areas I see are questions such as: 1. What constitutes a "healthy" or "good" relationship among those who, by nature of their lifestyle interests, wish to or inevitably do delve into areas of consensual slavery, or "consensual non-consent"? Is it all really as simple as the NLA would have us believe? While there is or was arguably an abstract consent there in some form, can this be substantiated legally at all? 2. Considering the above, what is mistreatment? How is it solidly defined in a lifestyle where "to use and abuse me is to love me" is arguably one of the centerpieces? How can we ever truly know the intents of others? How is an established standard of mistreatment mitigated in a human relationship that is subject to the changing forces of time, and as such, never reliably static? I feel the constant surfacing of the "contract" discussion is born of concern for culpability regarding the above questions, which do of course have answers, but not absolute ones that apply for all, and certainly never through a piece of paper serving as panacea.

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